Creche in Estate using communal area as play area

ectoraige

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Something else to consider. In schools, under GDPR regulations, an explicit permission slip is needed for every trip outside the school gates, including a walk to the local park etc. A blanket permission when they enter in infants doesn't cover it anymore. If this is the case in a creche, and I would imagine so, it leads to more problems.

WTF? How does that come under GDPR? Seriously, has GDPR become the new "Health and Safety, innit?" catchall reason for somebody to say no to a suggestion? Has some braindead principal seriously managed to confuse consent to hold data records with consent to have a fcuking teddy-bears picnic?

ectoraige

One thing that strikes me is the creche brings the children out at regular times. Surely this should make it easier to manage - don't schedule calls then, or close the window at that time. We have a fire alarm test every Wednesday at 10:30. I make sure I've things to do other than making calls during this time.

It's sad also to think that the sound of children playing in the background would be considered "unprofessional". Businesses should be as much a part of the community as everybody else. Just because somebody operates a profit shouldn't preclude them from contributing to society.

NinetyTwoTeam

Akrasia wrote: »

You said they go to your green because there are trees around it. They probably go there because there is shelter from the sun. Their own outdoor area might not have any grass or shelter so it may be unsuitable for them to play in this run of especially hot weather

You really need to drop it. Children are part of your community. They have a right to enjoy the outdoor communal space as much as anyone. You have a solution to the noise, close the window when you're on a call.

what does it matter if they don't have trees, that isn't OP's problem whatsoever. if the parents want a creche with trees let them go find one.

as for 'community', first of all they're not just neighborhood kids playing. they're kids that are supposed to be under the care of a business who is being paid to relieve the parents of their duties to mind the kids so they can go off to work. that business is not entitled to make those kids someone else's problem and let them disrupt other people's ability to work or their quiet enjoyment of the home.

you can't force people to put up with something aggravating and claim it's for the community. that is actually the opposite of what a community should do. OP is part of the community too.

if you think closing a window will block the sound of 20 kids screaming their heads off you haven't a clue what it actually sounds like

NinetyTwoTeam

ectoraige wrote: »

One thing that strikes me is the creche brings the children out at regular times. Surely this should make it easier to manage - don't schedule calls then, or close the window at that time. We have a fire alarm test every Wednesday at 10:30. I make sure I've things to do other than making calls during this time.

It's sad also to think that the sound of children playing in the background would be considered "unprofessional". Businesses should be as much a part of the community as everybody else. Just because somebody operates a profit shouldn't preclude them from contributing to society.

Why on Earth should he be rearranging a single thing he does in his home to accommodate a pack of screaming children that shouldn't be there in the first place?

and how can he stop people calling him when it's loud?

'Sorry, I can't talk now, it's recess time for a bunch of strangers kids and I am obligated to make sure THEIR enjoyment is undisturbed. Good day sir.'

Del2005

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Why on Earth should he be rearranging a single thing he does in his home to accommodate a pack of screaming children that shouldn't be there in the first place?

and how can he stop people calling him when it's loud?

Since it's daytime the screaming kids are doing no wrong, once it's after 8am, and since no one here knows what lease the creche has from the MC they could well be in their designated place.

The OP already has a solution to the noise is their OP, they close the window and the noise goes away so they can make or receive phone calls.

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

'Sorry, I can't talk now, it's recess time for a bunch of strangers kids and I am obligated to make sure THEIR enjoyment is undisturbed. Good day sir.'

You could argue that the greater good is having children screaming outside the OPs home than stuck in doors for the day so the OP can make a few phone calls.

ted1

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Something else to consider. In schools, under GDPR regulations, an explicit permission slip is needed for every trip outside the school gates, including a walk to the local park etc. A blanket permission when they enter in infants doesn't cover it anymore. If this is the case in a creche, and I would imagine so, it leads to more problems.

GPDR? Really?

SteM

Del2005 wrote: »

You could argue that the greater good is having children screaming outside the OPs home than stuck in doors for the day so the OP can make a few phone calls.

But they wouldn't be stuck in doors for the day. The creche has it's own outside space connected to the business. They're choosing not to use that for some reason.

CeilingFly

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Something else to consider. In schools, under GDPR regulations, an explicit permission slip is needed for every trip outside the school gates, including a walk to the local park.

????????????? GDPR????

Seriously

I suggest you read up on gdpr.

jlm29

SteM wrote: »

Del2005 wrote: »

You could argue that the greater good is having children screaming outside the OPs home than stuck in doors for the day so the OP can make a few phone calls.

But they wouldn't be stuck in doors for the day. The creche has it's own outside space connected to the business. They're choosing not to use that for some reason.

This is what I find very peculiar. The OP says the crèche has its own outside space. I’m sure it’s secure and fenced in, as is the outside space in every crèche I’ve ever come across.
I don’t use a crèche, because I prefer my kids to be in a different environment, but a lot of parents I know who do use a crèche, do so because they feel it’s safe and secure. The front doors are kept locked, so kids can’t get out, and randomers can’t get in. This seems a bit insecure to me, especially if they’re walking a distance (across two greens away from the crèche). I know there’s staff child ratios in place, but surely those are developed based on the surroundings being enclosed and secure?

SteM

jlm29 wrote: »

This is what I find very peculiar. The OP says the cre has its own outside space. I’m sure it’s secure and fenced in, as is the outside space in every cre I’ve ever come across.
I don’t use a cre, because I prefer my kids to be in a different environment, but a lot of parents I know who do use a cre, do so because they feel it’s safe and secure. The front doors are kept locked, so kids can’t get out, and randomers can’t get in. This seems a bit insecure to me, especially if they’re walking a distance (across two greens away from the cre). I know there’s staff child ratios in place, but surely those are developed based on the surroundings being enclosed and secure?

We had our lad in a creche when my wife was working and the creche was a building in a managed estate. There was a HUGE green space right beside the creche, literally 20 seconds walk away from the door of the creche. I would never have expected to pick my son up from creche and find the kids playing in this green area because it was open to the residents and people walked their dogs there. There was dog crap around it, not everyone picks up after their dog unfortunately. The creche had it's own back garden that was private and secure, the kids played out there whenever it was sunny.

If I had to guess, the creche has taken on extra kids for the summer and they're struggling for outdoor space so they've started bringing kids out to this green area, it's the only reason I can think of them doing it everyday.

A Shaved Duck?

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Why on Earth should he be rearranging a single thing he does in his home to accommodate a pack of screaming children that shouldn't be there in the first place?

and how can he stop people calling him when it's loud?

'Sorry, I can't talk now, it's recess time for a bunch of strangers kids and I am obligated to make sure THEIR enjoyment is undisturbed. Good day sir.'

Or he could simply close his windows when the call is on.

Neyite

Security for the children would be a concern for me if I was a parent of a child in that creche.

The creche we use have a buzzer system, and only approved people can pick up your child.

When there's an off-site outing the staff generally notify the parents. Our creche is in an estate too and the sometimes go for walks or bike rides around the estate, but it's organised and the children hold hands, walk in a line with hi-vis vests and are closely supervised.

In a green communal area where kids are running around, playing hide and seek in bushes etc, it's not possible to keep enough eyes on all of them and it would be very easy for a child to step out in front of a car or wander off. And there's nothing to stop someone unconnected to the creche from approaching a child on that green either, such as a relative that's been legally barred from contacting the child for example.


So I think the parents would be appreciative of the OP for flagging this. I'm sure the creche be well meaning and outdoor play for children should be encouraged, but as a business that gets their facilitates audited by the HSE, the use of the communal area needs to be defined.

Captain Flaps

Yeah, I'm a scout leader and while I'm a big advocate for allowing kids run around and get themselves into trouble in general, this raises a few red flags.

- the ratio of adults to kids is way too low. There should be one adult per 4 kids when they're this age unless they're in a contained space
- presumably as a communal area the green is beside roads and accessible to anybody who might feel so inclined as to approach the kids
- If most of the kids aren't local residents you don't have the same network of people who'd recognise them if they wandered off.
- Presumably parents would have to give permission for this to happen?
- I don't expect creche staff have the training to take kids off site, run activities for them and keep them under control when in a non-controlled space, but maybe I'm wrong there.

The reasonable thing here would be for the creche to rotate the green areas they use so no residents are routinely disturbed, but that's assuming the other things above are resolved. I certainly wouldn't be happy to hear the creche I was paying for was leading groups of kids around a housing estate green areas without proper supervision when they had their own grounds that I'd been able to vet.

I'll be working from home sometimes in the near future and while I don't mind local kids running around making noise (as OP doesn't), organised excursions by a business from their allotted area to other spaces (because it has trees? Install a canopy) would bother me no end.

Akrasia

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Something else to consider. In schools, under GDPR regulations, an explicit permission slip is needed for every trip outside the school gates, including a walk to the local park etc. A blanket permission when they enter in infants doesn't cover it anymore. If this is the case in a creche, and I would imagine so, it leads to more problems.

No it's not.
My kids school regularly takes children to the playground or to the church for communion preparation or to the garda station/fire station for talks and tours

We only find out about them when we collect the kids afterwards

It's gas, half the time on this website people give out about excessive regulations and red tape, and the other half there are people giving out about companies/schools not following imaginary red tape to prevent them from doing something they don't think they should be allowed to do.

Don't worry OP, it won't be sunny forever. Eventually the rain will come back and you'll not have to worry about these children outside getting fresh air anymore.

pearcider

Akrasia wrote: »

No it's not.
My kids school regularly takes children to the playground or to the church for communion preparation or to the garda station/fire station for talks and tours

We only find out about them when we collect the kids afterwards

It's gas, half the time on this website people give out about excessive regulations and red tape, and the other half there are people giving out about companies/schools not following imaginary red tape to prevent them from doing something they don't think they should be allowed to do.

Don't worry OP, it won't be sunny forever. Eventually the rain will come back and you'll not have to worry about these children outside getting fresh air anymore.

It's frightening how the common sense approach to things is being quickly eroded in Ireland. Some people want the government to do everything. These are the same people who would support a totalitarian regime and inform on their own family members. Normal people should confront these legalistic grand standers wherever they find them.

Akrasia

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Yeah, I'm a scout leader and while I'm a big advocate for allowing kids run around and get themselves into trouble in general, this raises a few red flags.

- the ratio of adults to kids is way too low. There should be one adult per 4 kids when they're this age unless they're in a contained space
- presumably as a communal area the green is beside roads and accessible to anybody who might feel so inclined as to approach the kids
- If most of the kids aren't local residents you don't have the same network of people who'd recognise them if they wandered off.
- Presumably parents would have to give permission for this to happen?
- I don't expect creche staff have the training to take kids off site, run activities for them and keep them under control when in a non-controlled space, but maybe I'm wrong there.

The reasonable thing here would be for the creche to rotate the green areas they use so no residents are routinely disturbed, but that's assuming the other things above are resolved. I certainly wouldn't be happy to hear the creche I was paying for was leading groups of kids around a housing estate green areas without proper supervision when they had their own grounds that I'd been able to vet.

I'll be working from home sometimes in the near future and while I don't mind local kids running around making noise (as OP doesn't), organised excursions by a business from their allotted area to other spaces (because it has trees? Install a canopy) would bother me no end.

A lot of the creches installed in housing estates have tarmac only yards with no grass. On a hot day these would be unsuitable for kids to play in. Tarmac gets very hot in direct sunlight.

I'm a scout leader too, I work with beavers, aged between 6 and 9, and I have absolutely no problem with allowing children to play in a grassy area a few hundred metres away from a creche within the same residential estate. My own child just finished pre-school and for the last few weeks in the hot weather, they spent most of their days up on a grassy field under the trees. It was part of the school property but not 'fully enclosed' ie:, a child could have theoretically ran off and onto a road in a quiet cul de sac without having to devise a rugrats style escape plan) and the teachers had way fewer than a ratio of 1 to 4 supervision.
The kids had been well drilled over the year and knew the rules and to not stray from their area. When they walk to and from any room or location, they do so in single file while holding onto the child in front of them (its gas, like a mini chain gang) and the teachers have control over them at all times.

ectoraige

Captain Flaps wrote: »

- the ratio of adults to kids is way too low. There should be one adult per 4 kids when they're this age unless they're in a contained space

Where did OP state the ratios that were being kept?

Captain Flaps wrote: »

- I don't expect creche staff have the training to take kids off site, run activities for them and keep them under control when in a non-controlled space, but maybe I'm wrong there.

You don't expect childcare workers to be trained to care for children?


A green in the corner of an estate is not the same as halfway up the sugarloaf.

Thoie

So, given it's a communal area, what happens if you're lying in the middle of it on a blanket, reading a book when they arrive?

What if there are other local kids already playing there at the time the creche turns up? How does the creche keep track of "their" kids in bunches of random strangers?

I lived in an apartment complex with a communal green area, and worked from home. Myself and some of the other adults (and their kids) who were around during the day used occasionally have picnics in the green area at lunchtimes.

A Shaved Duck?

Thoie wrote: »

So, given it's a communal area, what happens if you're lying in the middle of it on a blanket, reading a book when they arrive?

What if there are other local kids already playing there at the time the creche turns up? How does the creche keep track of "their" kids in bunches of random strangers?

I lived in an apartment complex with a communal green area, and worked from home. Myself and some of the other adults (and their kids) who were around during the day used occasionally have picnics in the green area at lunchtimes.

I would imagine common sense would be applied and they would move to a free space and supervise the kids there instead.

Or do you think something else would happen?

SteM

Thoie wrote: »

So, given it's a communal area, what happens if you're lying in the middle of it on a blanket, reading a book when they arrive?

What if there are other local kids already playing there at the time the creche turns up? How does the creche keep track of "their" kids in bunches of random strangers?

This is what I'm wondering too. Especially in the summer holidays when kids that live in the complex would be off school and hanging around.

Gatling

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Yeah, I'm a scout leader and while I'm a big advocate for allowing kids run around and get themselves into trouble in general, this raises a few red flags.

- the ratio of adults to kids is way too low. There should be one adult per 4 kids when they're this age unless they're in a contained space
- presumably as a communal area the green is beside roads and accessible to anybody who might feel so inclined as to approach the kids
- If most of the kids aren't local residents you don't have the same network of people who'd recognise them if they wandered off.
- Presumably parents would have to give permission for this to happen?
- I don't expect creche staff have the training to take kids off site, run activities for them and keep them under control when in a non-controlled space, but maybe I'm wrong there.

The ratio is 1-5, 1-6 ,1-8 ,1-10 for childcare depending on ages and what they are getting full ,part or sessional Hours,
settings for outdoors they can increase the number of Staff if it's needed ,staff are also trained trained to carry out risk assessments of outdoor spaces if they choose to take kids out ,staff are also trained to do small and large group activities this is all standard stuff ,

A Shaved Duck?

SteM wrote: »

This is what I'm wondering too. Especially in the summer holidays when kids that live in the complex would be off school and hanging around.

Im gonna put out the trained creche workers using their common sense argument again.

SteM

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

Im gonna put out the trained creche workers using their common sense argument again.

Maybe but you don't know any more than I do. It's a legitimate question. Common sense to me would be that those same workers use the green closest to the creche or rotate the use of the 3 greens available to not annoy the tenants too much. Maybe they're not doing that because other greens are already in use, we don't know but it doesn't mean we can't ask questions. Saying 'common sense' over again is pointless as we don't know the people in charge.

A Shaved Duck?

SteM wrote: »

Maybe but you don't know any more than I do. It's a legitimate question. Common sense to me would be that those same workers use the green closest to the creche or rotate the use of the 3 greens available to not annoy the tenants too much. Maybe they're not doing that because other greens are already in use, we don't know but it doesn't mean we can't ask questions. Saying 'common sense' over again is pointless as we don't know the people in charge.

Its easy to put out hypothetical questions that have no relevance, clearly the creche staff are going to make a judgement call or do you think they will just allow the kids to do whatever they like and annoy people enjoying the shared space.

ffs like ... sure what if godzilla was having a dump near the trees do you think the creche will bring the kids over for a look.. sure its a legit question :rolleyes:.

Captain Flaps

We're all arguing semantics but the real question here is pretty simple: is it reasonable for the creche to bring the kids in their care off site every day to the same public green area in the complex? I'd have no problem on occasion but would suggest visiting the same site every day is at best incredibly inconsiderate.

listermint

Captain Flaps wrote: »

We're all arguing semantics but the real question here is pretty simple: is it reasonable for the creche to bring the kids in their care off site every day to the same public green area in the complex? I'd have no problem on occasion but would suggest visiting the same site every day is at best incredibly inconsiderate.

I suppose ask the Owners of the residencies that are impacted.

SteM

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

ffs like ... sure what if godzilla was having a dump near the trees do you think the creche will bring the kids over for a look.. sure its a legit question :rolleyes:.

ffs indeed. /Unsub.

Mrs OBumble

listermint wrote: »

I suppose ask the Owners of the residencies that are impacted.

Some of whom are quite likely also PARENTS of the children in question!

Creches do excursions all the time. They know how to do this stuff far better than volunteer scout leaders who see kids once a week or less.

godtabh

Captain Flaps wrote: »

We're all arguing semantics but the real question here is pretty simple: is it reasonable for the creche to bring the kids in their care off site every day to the same public green area in the complex? I'd have no problem on occasion but would suggest visiting the same site every day is at best incredibly inconsiderate.

If all their being is inconsiderate build a bridge and get over it.

If they have the correct insurances and permissions let them be. By all means challenge it with the management company but if the management company has no issue drop it.

Captain Flaps

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Some of whom are quite likely also PARENTS of the children in question!

Creches do excursions all the time. They know how to do this stuff far better than volunteer scout leaders who see kids once a week or less.

Ooooh, my pride :rolleyes:

I made the comment about ratios because OP said there were 2-3 people minding 20 kids of creche age, which sounds like far too few for me.

godtabh wrote: »

If all their being is inconsiderate build a bridge and get over it.

If they have the correct insurances and permissions let them be. By all means challenge it with the management company but if the management company has no issue drop it.

Spoken like a true ignorant parent. "Children are bothering you on a consistent basis by being shipped in to play outside your home? GET OVER IT"