Firearms for self defence/personal protection

gunny123

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MOD NOTE

Split off form original thread - here.


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Cass wrote: »

gunny123 wrote: »

............. the gardai have to licence a massive number of personal protection pistols.

Handguns are still perfectly legal in the North so its not just personal protection.

I'm genuinely curious to see if anyone tries the sub, if its successful and then if they get to renew it.

Yeah i know, but it would be fairly easy to get rid of pistols if they are only for recreational use, but it would be a lot more difficult to remove personal protection pistols.

Cass

Excuse my ignorance on the matter but i don't see how it will have any effect.

Personal protection firearms are given out to people in the South too. As the matter is most likely closely guarded, both here and above, you won't know the actual number, and as far as i know such authorisation is granted directly by the Minister/Commissioner's office. IOW you don't go to the local Super/Chief Super for it.

Not being short with you, but the personal protection issue a small, small, part of this and the larger topic is C/F pistols being subbed, and sold. It's either going to go one of three ways:

1. Granted the sub, and renewed
2. Granted the sub, but not renewed
3. Not granted the sub, end of.

AGS and DoJ have been very clear on this matter and very stern about it too. You might get the sub, but the renewal won't happen and one or both routes will cost you both time and money in the courts.

If it does go through and someone can win the sub and renewal then i'm delighted and won't be too long going shopping myself, but with the attitude towards C/F pistols that has us where we are today (so few left) i'm hesitant to think that even if successful we'll win in the long run by doing it through the courts. A change of legislation is a better, safer, cheaper and more steady foundation.

1349

Cass wrote: »

Personal protection firearms are given out to people in the South too. As the matter is most likely closely guarded, both here and above, you won't know the actual number, and as far as i know such authorisation is granted directly by the Minister/Commissioner's office. IOW you don't go to the local Super/Chief Super for it.

I've always thought that this was the case, but I've seen the statement


"you cannot license firearms for personal protection in Ireland, it's illegal"


posted on this board 763 times. Which is it? And could I take a court case to get a pistol for protection (because if Ben Dunne has one why can't I), then use the pistol for target shooting (not asking about self defense, just target shooting, mods!)?

gunny123

I have wondered about this too. Ok you get a pistol because there is a serious threat to your life. What happens then ? Are you instructed on how to use a pistol in a stressful life threatening situation ? What happens if an innocent person is shot accidently ? Who is to blame ?

1349

gunny123 wrote: »

Ok you get a pistol because there is a serious threat to your life. ?

But what law states that there has to be a "serious threat"? Who defines "serious"?

Cass

@ 1349 - Do not confuse personal protection with self defense as in the American right to keep & bear arms.

When you apply for a firearm you must provide good reason for that firearm. Self defense (different to personal protection) is a no go. With the introduction of the home owners act you have greater "power" to protect you and your family while in your home, but the act says you must only use the necessary force to do so. IOW its not a shoot first, ask questions later permission.

Personal protection firearms are issued by the Minister's office at the behest of An Gardaí IIRC. They are reserved for people who have had serious and confirmed threats/attempts to their life as it's impossible for AGS to protect that person 24/7 and AGS are not a personal bodyguard service.

If you had say a .22lr pistol licensed, and carried it on your person (without having the authorisation from AGS/DoJ for personal carry/protection) then you're in breach of the firearms act and offensive weapons act.

Grizzly 45

I have wondered about this too. Ok you get a pistol because there is a serious threat to your life. What happens then ? Are you instructed on how to use a pistol in a stressful life threatening situation ? What happens if an innocent person is shot accidently ? Who is to blame ?

From what I can gather from a few of those who are in the know, and one who actually has/had a pistol for PP in the Republic.

It is perfectly within the remit and discretion of a chief super and upwards to issue a permit for personal carry IF they believe there is a significant threat to a persons life.
This is where it gets interesting... It doesn't say for how long the said person can hold the permit...The one lad I know still has his from the 1980s and has never been asked to return it either. He was simply told by the asst commissioner at the time,to present a letter in Garda HQ and to go down to the armoury and draw a Walther PP and 150 rounds of ammo and a shoulder rig,and to get on with the job that he was involved in in.No training,no"Do you know how this works?"gun safety lecture Nowt,nada.

It seems to be an archaic hangover from the independence /civil war years, where people probably were a lot more familiar with handguns and their function than they are today, so maybe they considered most would be familiar with a revolver or some automatics, as guns were a common sight back then?And those who needed one,like TDs and whatnot,proably knew how to use tone from their times with the RA or whatever..

I would say you would want to be on first name drinking terms with your CS or above to get one these days. You would need to have a stack of Garda Information[GIM] leaflets, which basically tells you a bunch of bad guys are looking for you and here is a few helpful hints to stay alive a bit longer, maybe. IOW you would need to be Veronica Guerin by five before they would consider issuing you with something, and they probably won't do it because quite simply to use bodyguard parlance"If you have to draw your weapon to protect your client, your observation and planning was ****e!" If that's what the pros are saying what chance do you have as a mere civvie is probably their reasoning. Least of all, they probably also don't want every drug-addled scrote claiming their right to a garda issued firearm because the rival drug gang is gunning for them.

Lastly and probably the overriding reason, which CS and upwards wants to deal with that Everest size pile of warm&brown were something to go wrong and the bodies have hit the floor and a Garda issued weapon and their signature on the permit is there as evidence??

Sparks

1349 wrote: »

I've always thought that this was the case, but I've seen the statement
"you cannot license firearms for personal protection in Ireland, it's illegal"
posted on this board 763 times. Which is it?

It's both. You're confusing "issued with" and "licenced" as if they were one thing when they're not. Soldiers in the army do not licence their firearms, they're issued with them, for example.
Also, you've never seen "it's illegal", you've seen "personal protection is not accepted as a 'good reason' under section four of the firearms act", which isn't the same thing.

1349

Sparks wrote: »

personal protection is not accepted as a 'good reason' under section four of the firearms act

But there's nothing in the law preventing any superintendent or CS from accepting it as a "good reason" in section 4, or is that explicitly stated in some other section or statutory instrument?





IOW it would be "accepted" if someone accepted it.

Sparks

1349 wrote: »

But there's nothing in the law preventing any superintendent or CS from accepting it as a "good reason" in section 4, or is that explicitly stated in some other section or statutory instrument?

No, it's not stated in legislation. It's explicitly stated in the Commissioner's Guidelines, and it's been policy since the civil war both at Ministerial and Garda level; but in theory it's possible to have a licence issued for that purpose. However...

IOW it would be "accepted" if someone accepted it.

I think you could, in very academic theory, issue such a licence within the Firearms Act. Obviously in practice we all know that's never going to happen, as it goes against Garda policy (and Ministerial policy) from pretty much the founding of the force and they already have a legal mechanism to issue firearms in cases where it is merited in their view for the purposes of protection (whether or not they've used it in the past I don't know myself, but there is a legal route to do so).

However, even in theory, the licence being issued wouldn't mean that was the end of it; any Garda in the force would still be legally empowered to arrest you if they saw you carrying the firearm or suspected you were under the 1990 Act and you'd be required to prove you had a good reason to be doing so; the licence would help but it wouldn't prevent the same thing happening repeatedly. I would also suspect that the Department would be issued with a Ministerial order to urgently research the possibility of a third party (in this case the Minister) seeking a judicial review of the licencing decision in the High Court on the grounds that this was in effect a single Garda countermanding almost a century of policy off his own bat. The local chief superintendent could in most cases (given the practical design features required of nature of the firearm you'd be trying to licence) argue that it should have been a restricted firearms licence that should have been made through him (as unlikely as it would be for a Superintendent to go along with this thought experiment, it's more unlikely for a Chief Superintendent to do so); and backing all of this up in the event of lesser measures not seeing the licence rescinded, you have to remember that the Minister has some significant powers under the Act, including banning any kind of firearm he so wishes under Section 2B, issuing licencing guidelines him or herself under Section 3A, drafting almost any kind of regulations he or she wishes under Section 27, and of course as the ultimate backstop, the Minister is still empowered under the 1964 act to issue a temporary custody order for up to one month, and any such firearm - regardless of its intended use for personal protection - would have to be surrendered, at which point you'd imagine (given our history of the use of that particular power) that more... practical means would be brought to bear.

I mean, I'm not a barrister or a solicitor, but the above do seem pretty clear from the legislation to me.

TL;DR - interesting thought experiment, never gonna happen, only the Healy-Raes have ever called for it and even they weren't serious, you wouldn't want to be the first to try to do this in real life, and besides all of that, would you really want to need this? I mean, that would seem pretty awful to me. Having a firearm for sport or hunting or farming or as a vet or for some other professional use, that's one thing; needing to have one for self-defense? That sounds like a bad, bad place to be in to me.

Sparks

BTW, all of the above is a bit of a mouthful, so rather than type that every time, we tend to just go "no, you can't get one for that here" for efficiency

1349

Sparks wrote: »

TL;DR - interesting thought experiment, never gonna happen

Sure, but now I know some things I didn't know before, so thanks for the explanation.

Sparks wrote: »

needing to have one for self-defense? That sounds like a bad, bad place to be in to me.

Same could be said for needing a civil police force, or seat belts or smoke alarms, but that's life. Bad things can happen to good people.

Sparks

Well, it can't really be said about the police or seat belts or smoke alarms as those can all get used (as in, for their primary intended purpose) without your life being in danger of a sudden unplanned stop. I mean, I had to make an emergency stop just this weekend coming back from doing the shopping when a learner driver confused his brake pedal with a thing you randomly stamp on with your foot as hard as you can for no reason, and the seat belt did its job and retained junior in the car seat instead of letting him bounce his head off the bonnet of the car after departing through the windscreen (I've seen accidents where that's happened despite the cars not actually colliding; I have no wish to ever witness it from inside the car).

A firearm owned for self-defence on the other hand, implies that not only can it only be used when someone is actively trying to murder you or your family; it also implies that someone is currently planning to do so. I mean, not something random, not something accidental, but someone actively thinking about this as a problem and seeking to bring it about on purpose.

That's just a whole other level of unpleasantness right there

Grizzly 45

You are confusing two things here as well, license and permit.
A license licenses you to use your private property in a legal manner.
A concealed carry permit under Irish law is exactly that, a permit issued by the CS or higher permitting you to own, posses and carry a firearm for personal defence. In theory, it is actually Garda/State property and by rights should be withdrawn once the threat is neutralised for the reason for you to carry it.
From what I can gather this "permit" has no real format, IE it doesn't look like a license card we all have,but is more or less a letter you carry with you with lots of AGS stamps and whatnot authorising you to yomp about with this,and some number to call to verify authenticity. As I said previously,the lad who has it was involved in Irish govt work and is a justice of the peace, so maybe he is justified in carrying this as some people might have old scores to settle?.
[Ironically, he had just as much grief as the rest of us licensing a 9mm handgun down here in his name]

As said you would be in a really, really bad place to get one of these issued to you,and you would want to spend a good bit of combat range time somewhere to be proficient with it too. More so than 150 rounds worth of shooting on a static target on a range here for it to be of any value to you.So end result might be better off if you did have pros looking out for you in that case.

Sparks

A concealed carry permit under Irish law is exactly that

The idea of a specific concealed carry permit as a separate thing in Irish law - well, if it does exist, I've never seen the section that defines it.

In fact, I'm not even sure which section of the Act they could use as legal grounds for issuing such a thing. You could give out a firearms certificate for that purpose (at least in highly academic theory), but reading back over the Act, there's no exemption under 2(3) or 2(4) that seems applicable to let someone carry a firearm without a licence in these circumstances without a licence (I had thought there was, but the wording around the Minister for Defence's mention isn't as generic as I thought it was); and that would set an awkward precedent, as well as having a few minor complications like having to meet the same conditions as other applicants for regular licences (like secure storage, which is mandated by law). You might even have some trouble waiving the fee today because of section 3B. Maybe you could fast-track and streamline everything else but at the end of the day you'd still be talking about a standard licence, with a very weird section 4 "good reason".

Also, given that this would be intended for discharge at another human being, section 4(2)(b) would be an awkward test; and I don't know how you would provide proof of competence, or how the ban on "practical and dynamic shooting" would affect all of this. Not to mention that because it's a normal licence (in the sense that it's not a new section of the act allowing this), how would you issue a centerfire pistol when it's illegal to issue a licence for one?

Basically, the only way I can see to do this would be to have the Commissioner literally write a letter saying "I said he could have it, leave him alone, do not attempt to arrest this person under Section 2 of the Firearms Act".
And such a letter can't actually have legal weight beyond the "I outrank you, shut up" level because the Commissioner isn't empowered to say that under the Act

Such a letter would be a historical artefact, I suspect

(I also suspect we're mostly in the realm here of complete speculation)

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

The idea of a specific concealed carry permit as a separate thing in Irish law - well, if it does exist, I've never seen the section that defines it.

Correct, it doesn't...It's a discretionary power of a persona designata.

In fact, I'm not even sure which section of the Act they could use as legal grounds for issuing such a thing. You could give out a firearms certificate for that purpose (at least in highly academic theory), but reading back over the Act, there's no exemption under 2(3) or 2(4) that seems applicable to let someone carry a firearm without a licence in these circumstances without a licence (I had thought there was, but the wording around the Minister for Defence's mention isn't as generic as I thought it was)

I would take a WAG that it is more likely in some very dank and dark paragraph of little-used legislation like an emergency powers act or the like. Maybe there is something in the Garda act,that for want of a better explanation," deputises" people to carry if need be?

; and that would set an awkward precedent, as well as having a few minor complications like having to meet the same conditions as other applicants for regular licences (like secure storage, which is mandated by law)

.

Possibly the exemption under AGS and military, and others[?] being exempt from such things in the course of their duties within the various firearms acts? I'm theorising here that this really has nothing to do with the firearms acts in the more traditional sense and is more police,govt legislation, and is so obtuse and shakey legislation that anyone in AGS doing it would be on very thin legal ice,as well as making a word in God's ear career choice.

Also, given that this would be intended for discharge at another human being, section 4(2)(b) would be an awkward test; and I don't know how you would provide proof of competence, or how the ban on "practical and dynamic shooting" would affect all of this. Not to mention that because it's a normal licence (in the sense that it's not a new section of the act allowing this), how would you issue a centerfire pistol when it's illegal to issue a licence for one?

As I said AGS/State issued property...It's not a personal firearm they are licensing for the purpose of self-defence. It's govt property being issued to a person of risk and enough importance to justify such. Going from what my contact said,it was here's an authorisation letter, feck off up to the armoury, draw the gun spare mag,150 rounds and holster and off you go and do the job you were needed on. Zero range time, a brief explanation of load and where the safety is...Off you go.

Basically, the only way I can see to do this would be to have the Commissioner literally write a letter saying "I said he could have it, leave him alone, do not attempt to arrest this person under Section 2 of the Firearms Act".
And such a letter can't actually have legal weight beyond the "I outrank you, shut up" level because the Commissioner isn't empowered to say that under the Act

True,but as has been said about the guidelines by AGS,they are only guidelines.:) This is kind of fudge,nudge wink,"my brass on my shoulders is bigger than yours and I issued it to him because I thought it was a good idea for "operational reasons,and he is a respectable VIP so he is ok to have it" country.
And that's literally what it seems to be in the paperwork.
But I would say this happens as much these days as much as" a brace of pistols at dawn and breakfast for one." For aggrieved parties to honourably settle their differences.:eek: [Although it does have certain merits come to think about it. There would be less "offended about everything" people about.]

Plus going by the state AGS is in at the minute, with tribunals, and all the rest, it would be career suicide for anyone to do this and if things went wrong, and there are bodies with the Garda ombudsman getting involved, and an AGS issued sidearm involved...
So deffo speculating here.:)

gunny123

I wonder who gets issued personal protection firearms ? Judges/prosecuters in gangland/terrorist trials for instance ? Civil servants involved in the likes of cab ?

Are they given any instruction in what to do if something does happen, after all a gunfight is probably one of the most stressful experiences a human can have, the chances of some innocent getting hurt must be an issue.

Grizzly 45

Seems to be an eclectic and random bunch.
Austin Deasy in the 1980s,[he had his nicked out of the house.] The former first head of CAB was offered one when CAB first got stuck into the gangs[He refused] A peace commissioner...
Those are the only three I know of. Anyone else know of any?

Training....Going by what we know of AGS firearms training and attitude to firearms.Probably very basic stuff..maybe.By the time you actually get to use it ,it will be next to worthless under stress and unless you are practising regulary with a handgun,[the most difficult firearm to shoot accurately anyway] in such a situation, you are proably better off without

Sandy22

Austin Deasy or Austin Currie?

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seems to be an eclectic and random bunch.
Austin Deasy in the 1980s,[he had his nicked out of the house.] The former first head of CAB was offered one when CAB first got stuck into the gangs[He refused] A peace commissioner...
Those are the only three I know of. Anyone else know of any?

Training....Going by what we know of AGS firearms training and attitude to firearms.Probably very basic stuff..maybe.By the time you actually get to use it ,it will be next to worthless under stress and unless you are practising regulary with a handgun,[the most difficult firearm to shoot accurately anyway] in such a situation, you are proably better off without

Barry Galvin, pretty sure he completed the firearms training course and was issued a handgun.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Correct, it doesn't...It's a discretionary power of a persona designata.

Who would not be a Garda since 2006.
It's currently the local district court Judge.

I would take a WAG that it is more likely in some very dank and dark paragraph of little-used legislation like an emergency powers act or the like. Maybe there is something in the Garda act,that for want of a better explanation," deputises" people to carry if need be?

If you could do that, you could get around section two, but it'd be sticky; Gardai are subject to laws that do seem to preclude deputising people (note the fuss over the creation of the Reserve).

Possibly the exemption under AGS and military, and others[?] being exempt from such things in the course of their duties within the various firearms acts?

I thought so but that exemption is specific in the Act:
"(3) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:—
...
(b) the possession, use, or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member of the Defence Forces of SaorstEireann or of a lawful police force in SaorstEireann in the performance of his duty as such member;"
So it's not terribly generic in terms of either who it applies to or what they have it for (the duty part). I mean, you probably could stretch the argument, but that's more down to Irish legal flexibility than Irish law, if you'll pardon the idiom.

As I said AGS/State issued property...It's not a personal firearm they are licensing for the purpose of self-defence.

Turns out not to matter so much really - a licence doesn't imply ownership, and the section two offence is for possession rather than ownership.

True,but as has been said about the guidelines by AGS,they are only guidelines.:) This is kind of fudge,nudge wink,"my brass on my shoulders is bigger than yours and I issued it to him because I thought it was a good idea for "operational reasons,and he is a respectable VIP so he is ok to have it" country.

Which is about the only way I can see it working and that means it has literally no basis in law at all.

A desperate measure indeed if so...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

unless you are practising regulary with a handgun,[the most difficult firearm to shoot accurately anyway] in such a situation, you are proably better off without

...which would probably be illegal anyway given the ban on practical shooting...

Grizzly 45

Sandy22 wrote: »

Austin Deasy or Austin Currie?

Currie..Always get those two mixed up!:o

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

Barry Galvin, pretty sure he completed the firearms training course and was issued a handgun.

He is/was out in Seychelles after his CAB time running an anti-ship piracy company.He was interviewed on some RTE docudrama about this a few years ago,and said that he was offered a personal,but refused it.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;107484353]Who would not be a Garda since 2006.
It's currently the local district court Judge.

Maybe that's why no more have been issued [that are known about]?

If you could do that, you could get around section two, but it'd be sticky; Gardai are subject to laws that do seem to preclude deputising people (note the fuss over the creation of the Reserve).

Think that was more fear of "Yellow pak" workers cutting into professional police forces and loss of power in "the fine body of men [and women]" As well as fear of the PULSE system being somehow tapped by people.If you look at the list of precluded professions from joining AGS reserve.Not to mind pay,rather than any operational problems.

. I mean, you probably could stretch the argument, but that's more down to Irish legal flexibility than Irish law, if you'll pardon the idiom.

Which is probably what happens or did.

Which is about the only way I can see it working and that means it has literally no basis in law at all.

As above...

A desperate measure indeed if so...

Yup, probably a minuscule rather than no chance at all type situation

...which would probably be illegal anyway given the ban on practical shooting...

And this is the nitty-gritty of law and definitions.
Combat training" is illegal here, practical shooting otoh has nothing to do with combat training, and learning IPSC pistol would be utterly useless anyway for self-defence/combat shooting .I've never had to shoot IPSC targets at arm's length with the range officer pushing and pulling at me to try and stop me drawing my gun then stepping back shooting at centre mass doing double taps or a Mozambique drill. After drawing from under my jacket with a shoulder rig.:)
Nor is assuming a single-handed outstretched target stance and firing at 30 meters at stationary targets in broad daylight much help either...Guess which one a total newbie will be given in training for carrying a sidearm here?:) Maybe an isosceles stance if they are fast learners, and they have some ammo left over??

All in all, even though I am all in favour of concealed carry as a deterrent, the way it is now, I think itis just as well that it doesn't exist much here. Seemingly zero legislation on the matter. Lots of nudge-wink", and ah be grand if you do" type situations and little if none, practical training in either use or mindset. A sure recipe for a disaster.

yubabill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seems to be an eclectic and random bunch.
Austin Deasy in the 1980s,[he had his nicked out of the house.] The former first head of CAB was offered one when CAB first got stuck into the gangs[He refused] A peace commissioner...
Those are the only three I know of. Anyone else know of any?

Training....Going by what we know of AGS firearms training and attitude to firearms.Probably very basic stuff..maybe.By the time you actually get to use it ,it will be next to worthless under stress and unless you are practising regulary with a handgun,[the most difficult firearm to shoot accurately anyway] in such a situation, you are proably better off without

One Desmond O'Malley (of the 1972 TCO, for absolute clarity in pointing out the hypocrisy).

Grizzly 45

Apprently he also had the last of the SB men armed with Thompson SMGs protecting him too. Crabby,nasty arrogant little man..:mad: Tried to talk to him once about this whole situation in Ireland.Dismissive and arrogant as only an old time FF could be.
My parents knew his uncle, Donnach very well back in the 60s in Limerick.Dessie was always trying to fill his boots,and failed miserably.

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

He is/was out in Seychelles after his CAB time running an anti-ship piracy company.He was interviewed on some RTE docudrama about this a few years ago,and said that he was offered a personal,but refused it.

I never saw that documentary so can only bow to your superior knowledge.

My recollection was based on an article I read many moons ago which in hindsight is wide open to correction.

I've always had a great admiration for the man, hugely intelligent, proactive and fearless.

Grizzly 45

Been trying to find a link or name to that documentary.But zero luck sofar.Was well worth a watch.:) Must go out to that island one day.It seems to be an island of intrigue and skullduggery with an Irish connection.:)

Uinseann_16

Just curious i wonder can DF members conceal carry while off duty? Maybe the lads working in G2 or other specialized roles..?

extremetaz

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Just curious i wonder can DF members conceal carry while off duty? Maybe the lads working in G2 or other specialized roles..?

...for what good reason?

If there's one thing worse than the notion of 'templemore' wandering around the place with a pistol, it's 'GI Junior' - and off duty no less?!? F*ck that sh*t!