Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

What was there before the DART in Greystones. The once an hour 84 and 4 or 5 trains a day. It made sense to electrify the line to there as the town is too far out for a decent bus service.

Oh Greystones was serviced by Diesel trains, it has been there since the 1850's. A mixture of through running intercity and commuter Diesel trains and a Diesel shuttle that ran between Greystones and Bray to link it with DART at Bray.

This shuttle service ran for a couple of years. So this area has a long history of people changing services to make their trip.

XPS_Zero

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I still can't believe the support for changing to a DART here. Yes there is issues at Bray Head but if you wanted a 2-3 hourly service could operate to Wexford or Rosslare.

Simply you terminate a DART at Bray instead and give the path to the other service. The majority of passengers from Graystones would have no problem taking an ICR into town instead of a DART and for passenger convince stop at DL, GCD, Pease and Tara (I know most already do).

It would be possibly to run an extra 1 or 2 daily services when driver resources allow if there was demand and funding. Many passengers on the route are likely annual ticket holders and changing to a DART would make them look for alternatives.

A shuttle from Rosslare/Bray has a lot of operational problems and sets will still need to run into Connolly. Limerick/Tralee shuttles are very different from an operational and convenience point of view.

The sets can run at quieter times with gaps in the schedule though.


You are also ignoring the central argument the others are making, that the ICR (esp because of the stop in DL but not just that) is only 8-10 min faster than the DART on a good day, on most days it gets to Bray not much after the DART behind it, this will only get worse with 10 min darts


At the moment anyone who comes down the steps at Shankill station (where trains come at 15 minute intervals) and see their dart is 10-15 late they IMMEDIATELY know "ok so the Rosslare trains late then" and IT'S ALWAYS LATE. There is no time advantage in running an ICR even if you took out the DL stop it would not make that much difference, and there is no other real advantage so why oppose it? If there is a 10 min DART frequency you will just be changing platforms that's it, people do it all the time.


I change from a DART to a Luas platform at Connoly. I change from Platform 2 to 5 at Connoly when I get off the Enterprise, I change at LJ when I am going to Limerick, I change from the red to green line on the luas.


Why is this different?

bk wrote: »

Sure nothing is impossible if you throw enough money at it. But realistically it would cost billions and billions, which simply wouldn't be reasonable for a service that carries 600 people a day.

Even a better quality service wouldn't bring substantially more people as the towns along this line are relatively very small and just don't have the populations to support that sort investment.

What would be involved:
- Quad track Bray to the city center. You are talking about CPOing some of the most expensive property and home in the country. Plus most of the line is in a cut and cover, so lots of difficult construction.
- Tunnel a double track under Bray head

I mean it is technically possible but it would have a terrible economic return.

That is why people try and come up with more inventive ways around the issue like changing onto Dart, etc. Try and work around the problem that is there with affordable solutions.

Of course the other approach is ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away. Let people take the bus from Wexford that is a lot faster, cheaper and more frequent. This seems to be the approach IE and the government have mostly taken.

I frequently say that all 3 govts were idiots for not using finishing Transport 21 as a stimulus package during the recession pointing out, when they say "we didn't have the money" that you could borrow it for failed companies but not an investment? Then I rant about the difference between an investment and an expense. I have my argument and counters to the responses so down pat I should trademark it. I love big dig infrastructure projects and smile every time I see one of those NDP logos from the Bertie era with ti's EU flag beside it...but even I know tunneling through Bray head for like 5 passengers (minor exaggeration) is insanity. The only way I justify doing it for Metro is that the north dublin swords corridor has an exploding population (as does lucan for DU). These towns don't.




So if we are not going to do an Apollo project for a couple of small towns, and we don't wanna close it, that leaves us with two options:


1. More ICRs more frequently which will just get in the way then get stuck behind 10 min DARTs


2. Have the transfer option and connect the ICRs/hybrids to the Ferry times and promote the hell out of it. Turn the ICRs/hybrids into a 2 hourly service.


I hadn't heard this transfer idea before but it actually sounds like they will find an excuse to close this line without it.


As BK points out Jamie they would loose their mind.


If FG is in you have Simon "wicklow times" Harris who would pander to a seagull if it lived in Wicklow, and would cut the ribbon for the opening of an envelope. IF FF is in you will have Stephen Donnelly, and if there is some kind of confidence and supply deal between SF and FF (way more likley than a coalition) you have a SF TD there too.




Yes, they would. You need to appreciate that while you may not be politically active, there are a huge amount of busy bodies in middle class areas. My office gets emails about joyriders in areas where there isn't one within 50km (when they should be talking to the local councils police committee not a TDs office) but national issues like this are legitimate things to worry about for TDs and a major change likee that would make a difference in votes.






Why would people abandon it for the car if they have not already done so? There is only a barely noticeable time difference so what difference, to the passenger , does changing a platform make and then sitting on a slightly different train?

The bus promoters can already say "look look you don't have to wait HOURS AND HOURS for a crappy leaky freezing cold commuter train to take you on an intercity route which is no faster than the DART"

WomanSkirtFan8

IE 222 wrote: »

A 3 car ICR running between Bray and Wexford would give an extra 3 services each way providing a service every 2hrs roughly with current services. It would also allow for a earlier morning departure from Dublin (with a transfer at Bray)

Or at greystones given thats as far south as the DART currently does. I do kind of like the idea of a three-car ICR running between wexford and bray providing a much more frequent service.

XPS_Zero

Can I ask specifically, what your alternative idea is to this? What do you think would improve on the current shambles without need for a transfer? and why would it be better than the transfer option?

WomanSkirtFan8

Stephen15 wrote: »

What was there before the DART in Greystones. The once an hour 84 and 4 or 5 trains a day. It made sense to electrify the line to there as the town is too far out for a decent bus service.

Thats right. i remember that situation extremely having lived in Greystones for 40 years now. You also need to remember the Greystones To bray shuttle train that existed between 1984 and 1990 (the latter of course being operated by those NIR Class 80 railcars loaned to Irish Rail back then.:)

theyoungchap

Ya are all missing the point though, Wexford Bus can get you to Wexford quicker than any train ever will unless there is absolute massive investment in the line.
Only in Ireland would it take 2 hours to get from Gorey to Dublin, and for the driver to have to drive the empty train down in the morning.

bk

listermint wrote: »

Populations totaling 188,466 on the towns serviced by this line, That is not including neighbouring towns just the 6 large towns on the line.

Im not sure what the head count you were expecting but that is larger than Cork city and the same as Limerick.

so.... erm...

BTW I knew this figure seemed off! I just checked. Are you including the populations of these whole counties?! Because if you look at the populations of the towns this rail service goes through, it adds up to just 68,453

Or to put it another way just about the population of Swords, while most of them are way outside any side of reasonable regular commuting service to Dublin.

If you are going to count the population of the entire counties then Cork alone becomes half a million people, never mind Limerick that feeds into the same line.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The sets can run at quieter times with gaps in the schedule though.


You are also ignoring the central argument the others are making, that the ICR (esp because of the stop in DL but not just that) is only 8-10 min faster than the DART on a good day, on most days it gets to Bray not much after the DART behind it, this will only get worse with 10 min darts


At the moment anyone who comes down the steps at Shankill station (where trains come at 15 minute intervals) and see their dart is 10-15 late they IMMEDIATELY know "ok so the Rosslare trains late then" and IT'S ALWAYS LATE. There is no time advantage in running an ICR even if you took out the DL stop it would not make that much difference, and there is no other real advantage so why oppose it? If there is a 10 min DART frequency you will just be changing platforms that's it, people do it all the time.


I change from a DART to a Luas platform at Connoly. I change from Platform 2 to 5 at Connoly when I get off the Enterprise, I change at LJ when I am going to Limerick, I change from the red to green line on the luas.


Why is this different?










I frequently say that all 3 govts were idiots for not using finishing Transport 21 as a stimulus package during the recession pointing out, when they say "we didn't have the money" that you could borrow it for failed companies but not an investment? Then I rant about the difference between an investment and an expense. I have my argument and counters to the responses so down pat I should trademark it. I love big dig infrastructure projects and smile every time I see one of those NDP logos from the Bertie era with ti's EU flag beside it...but even I know tunneling through Bray head for like 5 passengers (minor exaggeration) is insanity. The only way I justify doing it for Metro is that the north dublin swords corridor has an exploding population (as does lucan for DU). These towns don't.




So if we are not going to do an Apollo project for a couple of small towns, and we don't wanna close it, that leaves us with two options:


1. More ICRs more frequently which will just get in the way then get stuck behind 10 min DARTs


2. Have the transfer option and connect the ICRs/hybrids to the Ferry times and promote the hell out of it. Turn the ICRs/hybrids into a 2 hourly service.


I hadn't heard this transfer idea before but it actually sounds like they will find an excuse to close this line without it.


As BK points out Jamie they would loose their mind.


If FG is in you have Simon "wicklow times" Harris who would pander to a seagull if it lived in Wicklow, and would cut the ribbon for the opening of an envelope. IF FF is in you will have Stephen Donnelly, and if there is some kind of confidence and supply deal between SF and FF (way more likley than a coalition) you have a SF TD there too.




Yes, they would. You need to appreciate that while you may not be politically active, there are a huge amount of busy bodies in middle class areas. My office gets emails about joyriders in areas where there isn't one within 50km (when they should be talking to the local councils police committee not a TDs office) but national issues like this are legitimate things to worry about for TDs and a major change likee that would make a difference in votes.






Why would people abandon it for the car if they have not already done so? There is only a barely noticeable time difference so what difference, to the passenger , does changing a platform make and then sitting on a slightly different train?

The bus promoters can already say "look look you don't have to wait HOURS AND HOURS for a crappy leaky freezing cold commuter train to take you on an intercity route which is no faster than the DART"

10 minutes faster on a diesel is 10 minutes less having to spend traveling. on the wexford line 10 minutes is a long time.
over a change for changes sake that increases my journey i will take what i have, thanks. i expect i'm not alone either. the advantage of running a direct service is that people get to where they need to go in a convenient manner, most people on the wexford line will highly likely be going to dublin, so running the service to dublin is the only valid and viable option.
bringing up all sorts of other changes that are there due to different services or circumstances is not an argument for implementing a change which brings no advantages, inconveniences people, makes a service inconvenient and is a change for change sake. as to why they would abandon the car, well currently dispite the issues with the service it is some bit convenient for travel between the towns and dublin city. take that out, and there is no incentive when people can just drive to the city direct. changing a platform for the sake of changing a platform makes a huge difference to passengers, when what they had before was a lot more convenient they now have something inconvenient and that's even slower again.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

10 minutes faster on a diesel is 10 minutes less having to spend traveling. on the wexford line 10 minutes is a long time.
over a change for changes sake that increases my journey i will take what i have, thanks. i expect i'm not alone either. the advantage of running a direct service is that people get to where they need to go in a convenient manner, most people on the wexford line will highly likely be going to dublin, so running the service to dublin is the only valid and viable option.
bringing up all sorts of other changes that are there due to different services or circumstances is not an argument for implementing a change which brings no advantages, inconveniences people, makes a service inconvenient and is a change for change sake. as to why they would abandon the car, well currently dispite the issues with the service it is some bit convenient for travel between the towns and dublin city. take that out, and there is no incentive when people can just drive to the city direct. changing a platform for the sake of changing a platform makes a huge difference to passengers, when what they had before was a lot more convenient they now have something inconvenient and that's even slower again.

Less stress this again, we are only talking about 541 people a day! That is just about ten buses worth of people.

The advantage would be allowing DART to operate at every 10 minute from Bray which would significantly increase capacity of this section of line. Which would benefit tens of thousands of people.

The other advantage would be to the people of south of Greystones which would get a higher frequency service, rather then seeing the line close down which is what is likely to happen otherwise.

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

The BusConnects document states that there will be a Dart "every 20 minutes" from Greystones, which is not feasible currently but could possibly be done if there was a passing loop just before the main tunnel. Alternatively they could stack trains in Greystones during the peak hours, but this would have an operational cost of having drivers sitting around doing nothing.

This is interesting, looking at Google Maps, there does seem plenty of space to double track the line from Greystones station, up to the entrance to the tunnel at Bray head. A distance of 2.5km. Yes that might help a lot to improve passing services.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Less stress this again, we are only talking about 541 people a day! That is just about ten buses worth of people.

The advantage would be allowing DART to operate at every 10 minute from Bray which would significantly increase capacity of this section of line. Which would benefit tens of thousands of people.

The other advantage would be to the people of south of Greystones which would get a higher frequency service, rather then seeing the line close down which is what is likely to happen otherwise.

541 one minute, 500 another minute, and 600/whatever another minute. it's irrelevant either way in terms of this idea, given it is a good bit more and most trains have healthy loadings for what is offered. the train as a whole takes a good amount of busses and cars off the road, all those engines and in the case of the busses, drivers to pay. v 1 driver and 3 or 4 engines, meaning the train remaing and direct to dublin is better for not just the users, but the road users as well.
the dart can already supposibly operate every 10 minutes considering they are implementing it. so no need for a severely downgraded non-direct wexford service. they can and could always operate wexford services at a higher frequency if they wanted, the dart was used as an excuse before we got an increase from 3 trains per day each way and yet they managed to increase it, and yet dart was apparently more frequent back then compared to what it is apparently now.
if the line closes down, it will be because it's not one of the "right" lines, as in the lines that CIE historically wanted to remain open, which don't look to be for reasons of numbers or proffit and loss.

LeinsterDub

Question for those who find changing train so objectionable.

It's 5 years from now. It's 7.55 and the hourly train to Dublin is just about to pull out of the station do you refuse to board it and wait till 12.05 for the direct train?

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

541 one minute, 500 another minute, and 600/whatever another minute. it's irrelevant either way in terms of this idea, given it is a good bit more

Read the Heavy Rail Census from 2016

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

10 minutes faster on a diesel is 10 minutes less having to spend traveling. on the wexford line 10 minutes is a long time.

10 minutes longer on one kind of train as opposed to an other. "That's a lifetime lads!" 3 hours wait for the next train "Awh lads relax sure there's no rush".

It's like talking to 2 people at once.

Del.Monte

My last contribution tonight as the heat and arguing around in circles makes me almost want to go down to the pub except for feckin soccer.

XPS_Zero

theyoungchap wrote: »

Ya are all missing the point though, Wexford Bus can get you to Wexford quicker than any train ever will unless there is absolute massive investment in the line.
Only in Ireland would it take 2 hours to get from Gorey to Dublin, and for the driver to have to drive the empty train down in the morning.

Yes I'm not sure it's POSSIBLE to compete with the bus.
First the number of non-car foot passengers who are on the ferrys IN GENERAL is small (which is why they offer such low fares), and the number going from cc to Rosslare Europort must be in the single digits per week honestly. They should do a rail survey to determine all such info for the line before forming a plan.

People take the train (from the towns on stop) for the reasons anyone who has a choice between bus and train decides on train:
-Comfort
-Space
-Having something to eat on journey
-Using bathroom on journey
-Better wifi

What they need to do is enhance those aspects and add a major timetable enhancement to the project:
1. Use the ICR restaurant cars that are currently being misused as Heuston commuter runners and swap the commuter cars on rosslare line with them, that would be a big enhancement to the service (do same with Sligo)
2. Actually have hot food available like the Enterprise or Cork train
3. Ticket incentives some kind of ehanced sailrail deal for foot passengers
4. New timetable
5. Go direct from Bray platform 3 so no interference with the DART and you can slide across the platform no need to lug suitcases across the bridge or into lifts with bags or wheelchairs.
6. As others said reopen the bar in Bray station or give the coffee shop a liqueur license.



Look at the current timetable:
-3 hours basically to get from Connolly to Rosslare Europort. Is it really necessary to stop at EVERY cc station? Why not just go direct from Connolly and have it be from one of the closed platforms with a ticket checker who won't let anyone through unless they're going beyond Greystones, the way this INTERCITY is clogged up with commuters is stupid. Stopping at Pearse etc is also stupid
-157km aprox it takes 3 hours. Takes 2 hours in the car. The Belfast-Connolly is only 50km less and it takes 2 hours and a bit driving only takes just under two hours barely a difference.
-Then you have the HUGE gaps between the trains. One leaves Wexford at 07:43 there is not another one until FIVE HOURS LATER at 13:17 next one leaves at 6.
-Then when you DO get a train it's not linked to the port timetables
-Then you consider half them are not ICRs so might not even have a trolley service let alone a decent restaurant car

It's surely no shock people are not using a service like this ^

end of the road wrote: »

10 minutes faster on a diesel is 10 minutes less having to spend traveling. on the wexford line 10 minutes is a long time.
over a change for changes sake that increases my journey i will take what i have, thanks. i expect i'm not alone either. the advantage of running a direct service is that people get to where they need to go in a convenient manner, most people on the wexford line will highly likely be going to dublin, so running the service to dublin is the only valid and viable option.
bringing up all sorts of other changes that are there due to different services or circumstances is not an argument for implementing a change which brings no advantages, inconveniences people, makes a service inconvenient and is a change for change sake. as to why they would abandon the car, well currently dispite the issues with the service it is some bit convenient for travel between the towns and dublin city. take that out, and there is no incentive when people can just drive to the city direct. changing a platform for the sake of changing a platform makes a huge difference to passengers, when what they had before was a lot more convenient they now have something inconvenient and that's even slower again.

Crossing the platform at Bray and taking off on a slightly different train is NOT going to stop anyone, I just don't buy it sorry. If you already prefer trains over busses this will not put you in a bus. You are going to the same place, on the same ticket, in almost the exact same time. There is no valid logical reason to change to a bus.
HOWEVER more frequent service with no 4-5 hour gaps running port to bray would attract more people without a doubt especially if you implement the other suggestions I made above and market it well.

brings no advantages

But it does bring advantages, it allows a frequent service south of bray/greystones while getting you to the same destination in nearly the same time for the same ticket/money and may bring more passengers over from the bus.

changing a platform for the sake of changing a platform

You are making no effort to understand our side of the argument are you? It's not for the sake of it, the change ACROSS the platform (not OF platform, they can use the dead end platform in Bray they don't have to use the one across the bridge) is not for it's own sake, it means the ICRs or hybrids are not getting mixed up with the DART network anymore, slowing the DARTs down and slowing the overall journey time down, it means you get to the same place in the same amount of time BUT you had a frequent service south of bray because the ICRs or hybrids could do a quick turn around at Bray and restart another service instead of wasting another FOURTY FIVE MINUTES chugging along at low speed behind darts getting to Connolly, instead they are gonna be heading back towards Wicklow, Gorey , Arklow to pick up more people when they would have been pointlessly stopping in DUn Laoghaire to pick of people on the commuter lines who wanted to get to town faster!.

It makes so much logical sense.

Your argument amounts to "i enjoy the illusion of a more direct service and could not be arsed getting up and walking 4 meters at some point in my journey".

The price of your preference for a direct service is a slower, lower quality service with enormous timetable gaps south of Greystones. You are thinking of yourself when you ought to be thinking about how many more could benefit from a frequent service in Gorey, Wexford, Arklow, Wicklow etc.
You are also thinking of what a tiny few people using this service while ignoring the far more people who use the DART who are CONSTANTLY having our darts late because of the Rosslare train slowing everything down. I was delayed 15 minutes just this morning because of it and missed the start of work. I usually give myself more time but wasn't able to today.

when what they had before was a lot more convenient they now have something inconvenient and that's even slower again.

It's not slower it's the same, I've already explained several times from personal experience the ICR is only 5-10 min faster which if your head is in a tablet reading a book or watching tv/movies or eyes are closed listening to audiobooks/music/podcasts as most passengers are, it's the blink of an eye.

I would call a service every 2 hours way more convenient than one every 4-5 hours which is a gap that is fatal to any service, I'm shocked ANYONE uses it with a gap like that. With a 2 hour service you'd get people going down on shopping runs to Gorey/Arklow/Wexford both working people and FT card holders pottering around for a day out. But with a gap that huge it's a major disincentive. I remember going to Wexford one day for a day out and I wanted to get the train so we did (I hate the busses). My friends insisted we get the bus back because w'ed done everything we needed to do saw what we needed to see and there was still 2 hours to go before the train got to us, yet there was a Wexford Bus right there (they found the train so unreliable they didn't even get returns they were gonna get a single again) and they told me to ask if they take the FT pass, they did, so off we went.

They made an interesting point to me, if it had been the opposite, we'd stayed later than we thought and ended up missing it the one at 18:23 was the last one, a train service that is finished at 6pm is a disgrace, but even if it was earlier if I miss it I could have a 4-5 hour wait. THa'ts a shocking disincentive to use the train or get out of your car. Transferring at Bray means there is only a tiny overlap remaining with the DART and you unlock all that time and space for a frequent service, it's a perfectly rational reasonable common sense approach.

Now I should not be forced to hang around a town when I'm finished my business, or sit bored to death in a train station waiting area, for hours longer just to accommodate people who don't wanna get up and walk across a 4 meter platform mid trip.

end of the road wrote: »

541 one minute, 500 another minute, and 600/whatever another minute. it's irrelevant either way in terms of this idea, given it is a good bit more and most trains have healthy loadings for what is offered. the train as a whole takes a good amount of busses and cars off the road, all those engines and in the case of the busses, drivers to pay. v 1 driver and 3 or 4 engines, meaning the train remaing and direct to dublin is better for not just the users, but the road users as well.
the dart can already supposibly operate every 10 minutes considering they are implementing it. so no need for a severely downgraded non-direct wexford service. they can and could always operate wexford services at a higher frequency if they wanted, the dart was used as an excuse before we got an increase from 3 trains per day each way and yet they managed to increase it, and yet dart was apparently more frequent back then compared to what it is apparently now.
if the line closes down, it will be because it's not one of the "right" lines, as in the lines that CIE historically wanted to remain open, which don't look to be for reasons of numbers or proffit and loss.

541 one minute, 500 another minute, and 600/whatever another minute. it's irrelevant either way in terms of this idea

No it's not. It's CENTRAL to this idea. Think about it logically (something nobody on your side of the argument seems to be doing it's all about emotional preferences the psychological pull of 'direct' verses 'indirect'). The service as it stands is interfering with DART users who are far greater in numbers by an order of magnitude so the numbers do matter.
They also matter because major engineering to double track is a big fiscal investment and to put that money it needs to be justified the way all direct govt euros spent on this kind of stuff are justified: the domino effect that it does more good long term for more people. Here you'd be talking about a massive investment with very small payoff.

Whereas with Metro and DU you are talking about a paltry investment compared to the enormous payoff you get, dominoes will keep falling for decades.

, given it is a good bit more and most trains have healthy loadings for what is offered. the train as a whole takes a good amount of busses and cars off the road, all those engines and in the case of the busses, drivers to pay. v 1 driver and 3 or 4 engines, meaning the train remaing and direct to dublin is better for not just the users, but the road users as well.

Your first part of this bares absolutely no relationship to the part after 'meaning' , none whatsoever, there is zero logical connection between the two. It's like me saying I like oranges therefore an orgy with the Irish Rugby team is my god given right.
The amount of engines drivers and cars taken off is nothing to do with the service being 'direct' or not. People change platforms and lines and even modes of transport all the time to get to work. The fact that I can't get from Dublin to Limerick direct apart from on some bizzarly timed trains does not stop me from going there, my decision would be made by how long the connection wait is, and if the worse case scenario is 10 min I would not give a toss.

The Rosslare line as it is is NOT taking anyone out of a bus or car, there is no way in hell, the service quality (no dining car, cold leaky commuter cars used half the time, huge timetable gaps) is far too poor to get anyone to make that switch, but better frequency with better rolling stock would help that.

the dart can already supposibly operate every 10 minutes considering they are implementing it. so no need for a severely downgraded non-direct wexford service. they can and could always operate wexford services at a higher frequency if they wanted, the dart was used as an excuse before we got an increase from 3 trains per day each way and yet they managed to increase it, and yet dart was apparently more frequent back then compared to what it is apparently now.

I have to wonder if you are intentionally trying to miss the point now, you are starting to remind me of an old user called Foggy from my early days here, he was like Neo in the matrix dodging bullets except he was expert at making sure no logical arguments hit him or were allowed to be processed by his mind, it wasn't even possible for him to understand the other guys argument and disagree, he just ignored it or pretended you were making a totally different argument, I know it's very normal in politics that if you dont' like someones argument or can't refute it you just argue with something they didn't actually say instead, but this is meant to be a more rational place without the irrational passions of politics.

This change is not needed to allow a 10 min DART, our point is that the Rosslare services will now be stuck BEHIND those 10 min darts, which will further make this already disastrously unattractive service even worse. The easy way around that is a change at Bray so you have more frequent services south of bray then get onto a DART you know will stop at every station anyway, you wont be stuck on an ICR going at walking speed.

How can they operate them at higher frequency without more rolling stock (which they won't give to such an underused line) or without running smack into DARTs and slowing them down even more? I've already explained to you that even the crappy service they have now always makes the DARTs late imagine if it was more frequent I dread to think.

Del.Monte wrote: »

My last contribution tonight as the heat and arguing around in circles makes me almost want to go down to the pub except for feckin soccer.

Nobody is arguing in circles the two arguments are not meeting at all. There seems to be (intentionally or not) an inability to understand our argument at all let alone debate it. I get that your side says 'It's more direct and i dont have to change, that feels better'. I get that, when I needed to go to Limerick I looked first for a Dublin-limerick direct train, there wasn't one except at weird times so I just changed, the other train was waiting for me when the Cork one pulled in, it took SECONDS...SECONDS! Not even long enough for me to loose the line I was on in my book.

My argument comes down to this: An increase in frequency is critical to saving this line. There is no other way to get that frequency without slowing down the DARTs with more Rosslare trains, slowing down the Rosslare trains stuck behind 10 minute DARTs OR going on an Apollo project style digging through Bray head on a scale that would give Elon Musk an erection none of which are financially or politically viable options.

That leaves us with two real options, allow this travesty to continue with minor changes, where the Rosslare train will get EVEN SLOWER when 10 min DARTs come in giving IE the excuse to do what they do best (close rail lines) OR do the transfer at Bray.
This would be an ideal time to do it, when you are training people in the concept of transferring on the bus = you can still get to the destination faster or at the same time.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

This is interesting, looking at Google Maps, there does seem plenty of space to double track the line from Greystones station, up to the entrance to the tunnel at Bray head. A distance of 2.5km. Yes that might help a lot to improve passing services.

immediately north of the station is a rock cutting, but there's about 500m between the small level crossing at the Grove and the entrance to the "long" tunnel which could probably accommodate a passing loop. This would knock a couple of minutes off the turnaround time (currently 9 mins each way which is too tight for a 20 min frequency).

There's probably also scope to do something at the Bray end - there's double track for a few hundred metres south of the station but I think the signalling doesn't allow trains to pass there.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Oh Greystones was serviced by Diesel trains, it has been there since the 1850's. A mixture of through running intercity and commuter Diesel trains and a Diesel shuttle that ran between Greystones and Bray to link it with DART at Bray.

This shuttle service ran for a couple of years. So this area has a long history of people changing services to make their trip.

Shuttle didn't last long replaced by infrequent slow hourly buses after it was discontinued. It was logical to extend it to Greystones it only 50 mins by DART from Greystones to the CC vs the unreliable 84 which could take up to 2 hours to get to the CC from Greystones. All Greystones buses take ages to get through Bray also the 84 used to take a very windy route going through Ballsbridge it even went through Stillorgan, Cabinteely and Cornelscourt Villages.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Crossing the platform at Bray and taking off on a slightly different train is NOT going to stop anyone, I just don't buy it sorry. If you already prefer trains over busses this will not put you in a bus. You are going to the same place, on the same ticket, in almost the exact same time. There is no valid logical reason to change to a bus.
HOWEVER more frequent service with no 4-5 hour gaps running port to bray would attract more people without a doubt especially if you implement the other suggestions I made above and market it well.

it's the likely reality. given i've been a regular user of this line for the past couple of decades, i have some sort of idea what making the service even more inconvenient will do. and i never said i would change to the bus, i would go to the car. and i wouldn't be alone. a change to a hugely slower dart will not make an increased frequency attractive. an increased frequency with direct services is the only show in town and it can happen. if the relevant people want the line to survive, it's exactly what will happen. if they want it dead, then pointless changes for change sake, an inconvenient and a hugely unattractive service is what they will offer.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

But it does bring advantages, it allows a frequent service south of bray/greystones while getting you to the same destination in nearly the same time for the same ticket/money and may bring more passengers over from the bus.

a more frequent service could likely already happen. they managed to increase it before, and dart was supposibly a bit more frequent back then then it apparently is now. getting me to the same destination at a longer timescale for the same ticket/money on a slow, all stops suburban for part of the journey is not good enough and it won't attract people over from the bus which will continue to run direct.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

You are making no effort to understand our side of the argument are you? It's not for the sake of it, the change ACROSS the platform (not OF platform, they can use the dead end platform in Bray they don't have to use the one across the bridge) is not for it's own sake, it means the ICRs or hybrids are not getting mixed up with the DART network anymore, slowing the DARTs down and slowing the overall journey time down, it means you get to the same place in the same amount of time BUT you had a frequent service south of bray because the ICRs or hybrids could do a quick turn around at Bray and restart another service instead of wasting another FOURTY FIVE MINUTES chugging along at low speed behind darts getting to Connolly, instead they are gonna be heading back towards Wicklow, Gorey , Arklow to pick up more people when they would have been pointlessly stopping in DUn Laoghaire to pick of people on the commuter lines who wanted to get to town faster!.

It makes so much logical sense.

Your argument amounts to "i enjoy the illusion of a more direct service and could not be arsed getting up and walking 4 meters at some point in my journey".

The price of your preference for a direct service is a slower, lower quality service with enormous timetable gaps south of Greystones. You are thinking of yourself when you ought to be thinking about how many more could benefit from a frequent service in Gorey, Wexford, Arklow, Wicklow etc.
You are also thinking of what a tiny few people using this service while ignoring the far more people who use the DART who are CONSTANTLY having our darts late because of the Rosslare train slowing everything down. I was delayed 15 minutes just this morning because of it and missed the start of work. I usually give myself more time but wasn't able to today.

oh i'm making every effort to understand your side of the argument, it's just that it's not a valid one as far as i'm concerned. and i'd imagine i'm very much not alone. the change would absolutely be for the sake of it and will deliver no benefits for the users who would have once had a direct service. + those from the likes of greystones who use wexford services as a limited stop, faster service to avoid dart. the darts slow themselves down, the inter cities or bi-modes are unlikely to make any real difference to dart speeds. it means we get to the same place in a longer time, with likely no frequency increase (which could already happen as it is and direct) and could still do so with 10 minute dart. it makes no logical sense, as someone who actually uses the line. my argument amounts to, the service while not great is convenient, and i'm not going to have it degraded and made inconvenient with (worst case) a hastened closure when passengers abandon it in droves. the price of my direct services is a convenient user friendly journey. i'm very much thinking of how many more could benefit from a frequent service in Gorey, Wexford, Arklow, Wicklow etc, by opposing the severe downgrading of services and supporting an increase in direct convenient, user friendly services. the darts are not late because of the rosslare train, they are late because of themselves. if you were late for work, that is your responsibility, it is your responsibility to turn up to work on time, every time and if you feel you cannot do that, then you have to leave that bit earlier to insure you do. just like any of us.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It's not slower it's the same, I've already explained several times from personal experience the ICR is only 5-10 min faster which if your head is in a tablet reading a book or watching tv/movies or eyes are closed listening to audiobooks/music/podcasts as most passengers are, it's the blink of an eye.

and it has been explained to you by someone who actually uses the service regularly that this isn't the case, the service is a lot faster.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I would call a service every 2 hours way more convenient than one every 4-5 hours which is a gap that is fatal to any service, I'm shocked ANYONE uses it with a gap like that. With a 2 hour service you'd get people going down on shopping runs to Gorey/Arklow/Wexford both working people and FT card holders pottering around for a day out. But with a gap that huge it's a major disincentive.

a 2 hourly service where one has to travel part of the way on a slow, all stops service where once they had a direct service is worse then the one with 4 to 5 hour gaps, as it may have a higher frequency but is hugely less convenient and user friendly. nobody is going to go down on shopping runs Gorey/Arklow/Wexford via a train with a change for changes sake when they can drive or get the bus directly. i'm sorry but this is fantasy stuff.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Transferring at Bray means there is only a tiny overlap remaining with the DART and you unlock all that time and space for a frequent service, it's a perfectly rational reasonable common sense approach.

transferring at bray makes the service hugely inconvenient, hugely unuser friendly. overlap with the dart is extremely tiny as it is and would be the same even if services were increased, given frequency was increased before dispite the supposed problems dart caused back then. i believe the issues are possibly blown out of proportion especially in this discussion to justify this fantasy. it's a perfectly irrational unreasonable non-common sense approach and would only likely be implemented to destroy the service.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

No it's not. It's CENTRAL to this idea. Think about it logically (something nobody on your side of the argument seems to be doing it's all about emotional preferences the psychological pull of 'direct' verses 'indirect'). The service as it stands is interfering with DART users who are far greater in numbers by an order of magnitude so the numbers do matter.
They also matter because major engineering to double track is a big fiscal investment and to put that money it needs to be justified the way all direct govt euros spent on this kind of stuff are justified: the domino effect that it does more good long term for more people. Here you'd be talking about a massive investment with very small payoff.

oh we are thinking logically, based on our experience of actually using the service in question, regularly. it's all about convenience and actual reality and the benefits of a user friendly, convenient service over one that's inconvenient and unuser friendly. the service as it stands supposibly "interfering" with dart is a massive over-exaggeration and is a non-issue IMO. dart is not the be all and end all of the railway, it's important but not so much that others have to be completely screwed over for it. double tracking around the single parts of the dart network would absolutely have a huge payback in terms of future capacity and large scale flexibility and is needed whether services to rosslare exist or not. culverts and tunnels don't need to be done, just what bits can easily be done would need, and should be done.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Your first part of this bares absolutely no relationship to the part after 'meaning' , none whatsoever, there is zero logical connection between the two. It's like me saying I like oranges therefore an orgy with the Irish Rugby team is my god given right.
The amount of engines drivers and cars taken off is nothing to do with the service being 'direct' or not. People change platforms and lines and even modes of transport all the time to get to work. The fact that I can't get from Dublin to Limerick direct apart from on some bizzarly timed trains does not stop me from going there, my decision would be made by how long the connection wait is, and if the worse case scenario is 10 min I would not give a toss.

The Rosslare line as it is is NOT taking anyone out of a bus or car, there is no way in hell, the service quality (no dining car, cold leaky commuter cars used half the time, huge timetable gaps) is far too poor to get anyone to make that switch, but better frequency with better rolling stock would help that.

people changing platforms and lines and even modes of transport all the time to get to work where such changes actually make sense means nothing in terms of this discussion given it's due to circumstances rather then trying to screw over people who may be less likely to resist being screwed over to benefit 1 service which can already be hugely improved as it is and is going to be. the service is taking the it's current users off the roads at least. going from dublin to limerick is irrelevant given the circumstances involved, you are changing from and 2 a branch service connecting to a limited stop, fastish inter city service.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

This change is not needed to allow a 10 min DART, our point is that the Rosslare services will now be stuck BEHIND those 10 min darts, which will further make this already disastrously unattractive service even worse. The easy way around that is a change at Bray so you have more frequent services south of bray then get onto a DART you know will stop at every station anyway, you wont be stuck on an ICR going at walking speed.

How can they operate them at higher frequency without more rolling stock (which they won't give to such an underused line) or without running smack into DARTs and slowing them down even more? I've already explained to you that even the crappy service they have now always makes the DARTs late imagine if it was more frequent I dread to think.

the change isn't needed. better to be stuck behind a dart and run direct then changing to that dart and being a hell of a lot slower.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

My argument comes down to this: An increase in frequency is critical to saving this line. There is no other way to get that frequency without slowing down the DARTs with more Rosslare trains, slowing down the Rosslare trains stuck behind 10 minute DARTs OR going on an Apollo project style digging through Bray head on a scale that would give Elon Musk an erection none of which are financially or politically viable options.

That leaves us with two real options, allow this travesty to continue with minor changes, where the Rosslare train will get EVEN SLOWER when 10 min DARTs come in giving IE the excuse to do what they do best (close rail lines) OR do the transfer at Bray.
This would be an ideal time to do it, when you are training people in the concept of transferring on the bus = you can still get to the destination faster or at the same time.

an increase in frequency is critical, but only if it's user friendly, convenient and direct. a frequent yet inconvenient, unuser friendly service as is being proposed on here would be worse then what we are getting, it would be shifting 1 lot of issues with the services for inconvenience and unuserfriendlyness. the darts slow themselves down so are unlikely to be slowed by extra rosslare trains and even if they were, that's IE'S problem and not the users of rosslare services.

mfceiling

What's the big deal about switching trains for better service or more frequency?
I travel from dublin to killarney once or twice a year and we change at mallow every single time. Walk across the platform, hop on the other train and 5 mins later and we're gone!! No biggy at all.

listermint

bk wrote: »

BTW I knew this figure seemed off! I just checked. Are you including the populations of these whole counties?! Because if you look at the populations of the towns this rail service goes through, it adds up to just 68,453

Or to put it another way just about the population of Swords, while most of them are way outside any side of reasonable regular commuting service to Dublin.

If you are going to count the population of the entire counties then Cork alone becomes half a million people, never mind Limerick that feeds into the same line.

My bad when typed Wexford town it came back with county for some reason.

And revised them down but your figures are wrong population of the town's serviced by the line is over 80,000 not withstanding surrounding villages which I have not included . So easily 100k people.

That is not a figure to be sniffed at whatsoever in sure you can agree.

Rosslare Wexford gorey arklow rathdrum kilcoole greystones . And whatever populations close to have been excluded.

I've not opinion either way on the changes just that there is a large volume of people to be serviced .

The East coast is a massive holiday destination from Dublin and if brexit comes to pass rosslare is going to see huge increases in traffic.

end of the road

mfceiling wrote: »

What's the big deal about switching trains for better service or more frequency?
I travel from dublin to killarney once or twice a year and we change at mallow every single time. Walk across the platform, hop on the other train and 5 mins later and we're gone!! No biggy at all.

this question and more has already been answered in the thread. including why your change at mallow is not a valid comparison.

CatInABox

I think the comfort of a single train has warped your perception of time, End of the road.

Here's Irish Rails timetable for Dart and Commuter trains. Take a look at page 39 (or any of the Gorey to Connolly routes, they're all much the same). You'll see that a Dart leaves Bray at 06:55, and arrives into Dublin Connolly at 07:39, giving a journey time of 44 minutes. The next column over, you'll see that a train from Gorey leaves Bray at 07:04, and arrives into Dublin Connolly at 07:46, giving a journey time of 42 minutes.

Faster, yes, but significantly faster? No. In fact, it can't go any faster, or it'll ram the back of a Dart.

I'm sure that anecdotally, it seems faster, just as it seems that loads more than 600 use it, but in the real world, it isn't.

Here's the Heavy Rail Census again, I don't think you looked at it properly the last time around. Page 36 shows the daily boardings per station. In total, combining all the trains heading north together, from Rosslare to Kilcoole, 574 people got on. That's all of the trains, not just one. The heaviest load on a train was the 05:55 Gorey to Connolly, with a grand total of 254 people. That's after people got on at Greystones and Bray as well, as the measurement was done between Blackrock and Lansdowne Rd. You can see that on page 33.

You may scoff at the figures and timetables I provided, but when it comes time to decide what happens with this line in the future, the people making the decisions won't be using anecdotal evidence, they'll be using the same figures I provided.

Quackster

end of the road wrote: »

this question and more has already been answered in the thread. including why your change at mallow is not a valid comparison.

It is a valid comparison. There used to be more direct Dublin/Tralee services. To improve the frequency of the overall service, the number of direct services was drastically reduced. Not everyone was happy with this change at the time but the sky didn't fall in. Folk didn't stop travelling Dublin-Kerry because of the 'hassle' of having to change at Mallow.

And I certainly wouldn't go back to the previous timetable just to have more direct services again.

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

I think the comfort of a single train has warped your perception of time, End of the road.

i know for a fact that you are incorrect. i don't do "perceptions" of anything. i do reality, especially where it comes to things i actually experience, especially very regularly.
the reality of a user friendly service being better then one that isn't, has over the past couple of decades focused the mind in terms of how the railway must operate. a railway which screws over 1 lot of users for another, is not a functional railway. even what exists with our current railway is better then that ideal. screwing over users kills railways and yet some want more of it. mind you if people didn't learn that already they won't now.

CatInABox wrote: »

Here's Irish Rails timetable for Dart and Commuter trains. Take a look at page 39 (or any of the Gorey to Connolly routes, they're all much the same). You'll see that a Dart leaves Bray at 06:55, and arrives into Dublin Connolly at 07:39, giving a journey time of 44 minutes. The next column over, you'll see that a train from Gorey leaves Bray at 07:04, and arrives into Dublin Connolly at 07:46, giving a journey time of 42 minutes.

Faster, yes, but significantly faster? No. In fact, it can't go any faster, or it'll ram the back of a Dart.

I'm sure that anecdotally, it seems faster, just as it seems that loads more than 600 use it, but in the real world, it isn't.

Here's the Heavy Rail Census again, I don't think you looked at it properly the last time around. Page 36 shows the daily boardings per station. In total, combining all the trains heading north together, from Rosslare to Kilcoole, 574 people got on. That's all of the trains, not just one. The heaviest load on a train was the 05:55 Gorey to Connolly, with a grand total of 254 people. That's after people got on at Greystones and Bray as well, as the measurement was done between Blackrock and Lansdowne Rd. You can see that on page 33.

You may scoff at the figures and timetables I provided, but when it comes time to decide what happens with this line in the future, the people making the decisions won't be using anecdotal evidence, they'll be using the same figures I provided.

it doesn't "seem" anything. it is what i have stated it is in the real world, based on my actual regular usage over the past couple of decades. it's no skin off my nose whether people except it or not, i don't care if i'm honest given it won't be them effected if this idea became reality. i'm just providing the information based on actually using the service regularly, after that i can do no more nor is it my problem.
the census is irrelevant to this specific suggestion. even if it was in anyway relevant, given it's not done at a high traffic period and is not done daily, it cannot really give a true picture of anything bar usage on the day it is taken. the people making the decisians can use whatever figures they like, it will not change the reality of actual experiences from regular users who know what is really happening on the ground via their regular usage of a service and who will know what is needed for them to use the service.

end of the road

Quackster wrote: »

It is a valid comparison. There used to be more direct Dublin/Tralee services. To improve the frequency of the overall service, the number of direct services was drastically reduced. Not everyone was happy with this change at the time but the sky didn't fall in. Folk didn't stop travelling Dublin-Kerry because of the 'hassle' of having to change at Mallow.

And I certainly wouldn't go back to the previous timetable just to have more direct services again.

or it could have been about cutting rolling stock use.
the sky not falling in isn't relevant. the people traveling from tralee are changing to a fast, limited stop service, and the rail journey time i believe is a lot faster from there then by road. so i would have to say it isn't a valid comparison in my view.

marno21

What this whole debate does is it shows the main issue with what is trying to be done with the rail lines into Dublin. Trying to run both frequent intercity services and high frequency commuter/DART services on either single track or twin track lines always ends this way. It's just not possible. The UK was raised here in this thread but most of the rail lines running both intercity and stopping services are quad tracked. The only area where we have a functional equivalent in Ireland is on the Kildare line, but that was quad tracked assuming that two tracks would diverge into the tunnel at Inchicore, rather than what is now proposed with city centre services diverging at Islandbridge which may cause issues as the tracks through the gullet before Heuston can't be widened to quad track.

There will always be capacity issues if intercity and stopping services are running on the same track into the city centre, as it's a total impossibility to widen the tracks from Connolly southwards, be it due to the land it runs through from CC to Dun Laoighre or the terrain issues south of DL.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

or it could have been about cutting rolling stock use.
the sky not falling in isn't relevant. the people traveling from tralee are changing to a fast, limited stop service, and the rail journey time i believe is a lot faster from there then by road. so i would have to say it isn't a valid comparison in my view.

Tralee-Dublin is as fast via road as it is via train. The dogleg via Mallow is what slows it down. There can also be dwells in Mallow required which adds to it. The train is busy all the same.

The line south of Greystones will always have issues due to the dogleg via Rathdrum and the general state of the line along with it being single track. To me, especially with the M11 going beyond Enniscorthy by next year, the added frequency would be significantly more useful than a direct train which is slow north of Bray anyway.

Del.Monte

As a regular user I can assure anybody else here who doesn't know the route and service that it already doesn't stack up as an 'inter-city' quality product. In both directions the existing trains are filled with suburban (DART) commuters competing with inter-city passengers for very limited seating between Connolly and Bray. In former times this wasn't a significant problem as there was far greater capacity in the loco hauled MkII trains and commuters were easily accommodated.

Obviously the track capacity is a major and largely insurmountable problem but if the Rosslare line services south of Gorey are to survive new thinking is required. Throwing in a change at Bray and even more jostling with DART commuters standing all over one on the Bray/Connolly/Bray journey would be a recipe for disaster. I'd be more inclined to remove preceding DARTs from in front of the Rosslare trains than the other way around. Nonsense stops for Rosslare trains such as Tara Street need to be removed and departures from Connolly should be from Platform.1. and only mainline passengers admitted.

As others have said, the reintroduction of a snack/restaurant car on the route would go along way to improve things and have little effect on the overall capacity of the train. The current nonsense of trying to push the poison trolley through a crowded train just adds to the overall shambles.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

i know for a fact that you are incorrect. i don't do "perceptions" of anything. i do reality, especially where it comes to things i actually experience, especially very regularly.
the reality of a user friendly service being better then one that isn't, has over the past couple of decades focused the mind in terms of how the railway must operate. a railway which screws over 1 lot of users for another, is not a functional railway. even what exists with our current railway is better then that ideal. screwing over users kills railways and yet some want more of it. mind you if people didn't learn that already they won't now.

Here's the Realtime Info for Tara St this morning.

Destination Origin Sch ETA Due in Latest Information
Dublin Connolly (A603) Gorey 07:41 07:42 3 min Arrived Dublin Pearse

The Gorey train was scheduled for 07:41, but was delayed. You are not dealing with reality.

I'd argue that you're planning on screwing over a larger number of potential passengers by making them cancel a ten minute dart, leaving a larger gap in the service, just so you don't have the hassle of a miniature transfer.

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'd be more inclined to remove preceding DARTs from in front of the Rosslare trains than the other way around.

Sure let's go the whole hog and remove the darts altogether. Sure we may as well build the entire network around 600 people

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

i know for a fact that you are incorrect. i don't do "perceptions" of anything. i do reality, especially where it comes to things i actually experience, especially very regularly.
the reality of a user friendly service being better then one that isn't, has over the past couple of decades focused the mind in terms of how the railway must operate. a railway which screws over 1 lot of users for another, is not a functional railway. even what exists with our current railway is better then that ideal. screwing over users kills railways and yet some want more of it. mind you if people didn't learn that already they won't now.

Have you read any of Jarret Walker's work? Budgets, capacity and manpower are finite. By pandering to the tiny minority you actually keep usage low.

Corca Baiscinn

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Limerick passengers change all the tme at Limerick Junction and the conecting train is as poster above said waiting at the platform. It's rather Dart like too!

Since there are only 3 services a day from Wexford as opposed to 6+ to/from Sligo and Belfast we're looking for a solution that might improve fthe Wexford service and not the others

Same in Mallow for final leg to Cork, or the trip to Kerry, depending on the train.

The only real balls there is that I've yet had to transfer into an already present train, rather a 20 to 30 min wait.

CatInABox

Deleted User wrote: »

Same in Mallow for final leg to Cork, or the trip to Kerry, depending on the train.

The only real balls there is that I've yet had to transfer into an already present train, rather a 20 to 30 min wait.

That's definitely not the way to do it, and I'd be complaining if that was the case. It should really be a case of stepping off and stepping on, no need to break stride even. Probably harder to do without a frequent service like the Dart, but still, they really shouldn't be leaving people standing around like that.

ArmaniJeanss

bk wrote: »

Bull, people change lines everyday in London without giving it an even second thought. If you look at any modern cities public transport network, the whole thing is built around people constantly changing between services.

In two minds about this having been in many of these 'modern cities'. If I'm travelling from A to B and there isn't a direct line then clearly I'm going to have to change at a station in between, everyone accepts that so yes changing is the norm and no-one gives it a second thought.

Whats being proposed here is kinda different though, there is a direct route from A to B thats been there for ~100 years and the proposal is to remove that and replace it with something that is inferior. You can see how people aren't going to be enthused about it.

So a more apt comparison with other cities would be 'what other cities have reduced an existing direct line by stopping the service in the outer suburbs forcing a change to a different mode along the exact same rail-line, and was this change accepted by the commuters without a 'second thought'?'

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

Here's the Realtime Info for Tara St this morning.

Destination Origin Sch ETA Due in Latest Information
Dublin Connolly (A603) Gorey 07:41 07:42 3 min Arrived Dublin Pearse
The Gorey train was scheduled for 07:41, but was delayed. You are not dealing with reality.

I'd argue that you're planning on screwing over a larger number of potential passengers by making them cancel a ten minute dart, leaving a larger gap in the service, just so you don't have the hassle of a miniature transfer.

if you'd argue that i'm screwing over anyone, or suggesting that i'm making anyone cancel a 10 minute dart, especially for a "miniature transfer" which is far from that and is the idea that will kill the line, then it proves to me at least, that you are trying to throw any old mud in persuit of the idea you are throwing your support at, based on limited knowledge of a service you don't actually use.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Have you read any of Jarret Walker's work? Budgets, capacity and manpower are finite. By pandering to the tiny minority you actually keep usage low.

he will also tell you i'm sure, that by degrading a service, you make usage even lower.
Budgets, capacity and manpower are not so finite that people have to be seriously screwed over for 1 service.

schemingbohemia

Del.Monte wrote: »

As a regular user I can assure anybody else here who doesn't know the route and service that it already doesn't stack up as an 'inter-city' quality product. In both directions the existing trains are filled with suburban (DART) commuters competing with inter-city passengers for very limited seating between Connolly and Bray. In former times this wasn't a significant problem as there was far greater capacity in the loco hauled MkII trains and commuters were easily accommodated.

Obviously the track capacity is a major and largely insurmountable problem but if the Rosslare line services south of Gorey are to survive new thinking is required. Throwing in a change at Bray and even more jostling with DART commuters standing all over one on the Bray/Connolly/Bray journey would be a recipe for disaster. I'd be more inclined to remove preceding DARTs from in front of the Rosslare trains than the other way around. Nonsense stops for Rosslare trains such as Tara Street need to be removed and departures from Connolly should be from Platform.1. and only mainline passengers admitted.

As others have said, the reintroduction of a snack/restaurant car on the route would go along way to improve things and have little effect on the overall capacity of the train. The current nonsense of trying to push the poison trolley through a crowded train just adds to the overall shambles.

You do realise that it's a service, this trainspotting mentality about the elysian fields of train travel is best left to Michael Portillo and his programmes.
It's a transport service to get you from A to B, bringing in a transfer at Bray enables many more services to be provided to people south of Bray, including Greystones and Wexford. Those transferring will be getting on at the first stop of the service so, in should be able to get a seat.
This idea of only having inter-city (a laugh considering the population of points south of Greystones) passengers is fine if those using that service are willing to pay significantly more for their tickets, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

Del.Monte

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You do realise that it's a service, this trainspotting mentality about the elysian fields of train travel is best left to Michael Portillo and his programmes.
It's a transport service to get you from A to B, bringing in a transfer at Bray enables many more services to be provided to people south of Bray, including Greystones and Wexford. Those transferring will be getting on at the first stop of the service so, in should be able to get a seat.
This idea of only having inter-city (a laugh considering the population of points south of Greystones) passengers is fine if those using that service are willing to pay significantly more for their tickets, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

I thought it was against the forum charter to resort to calling people 'trainspotters' - as it I am far removed from being such. What many on this thread seem unable to do is compare like with like - saying you have to change trains at Mallow and Limerick Junction is so daft that it's not worth responding.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

if you'd argue that i'm screwing over anyone, or suggesting that i'm making anyone cancel a 10 minute dart, especially for a "miniature transfer" which is far from that and is the idea that will kill the line, then it proves to me at least, that you are trying to throw any old mud in persuit of the idea you are throwing your support at, based on limited knowledge of a service you don't actually use.

Seems like you don't want to debate the timetable anymore, seeing as I've proven that it's not more than a couple of minutes faster.

Keeping things the way that they are is what will kill the line, and what I'm suggesting is actually a way to improve service on the line by increasing frequency, while only adding a couple of minutes onto your journey.

end of the road wrote: »

he will also tell you i'm sure, that by degrading a service, you make usage even lower.

He'd tell you that increased frequency leads to increased usage, even if it involves the creation of an interchange. That's literally one of the main points of his BusConnects proposal.

LeinsterDub

The ironic thing here is those opposed to transferring are most likely transferring.... At Connolly to either a Bus, Luas or taxi.

end of the road

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You do realise that it's a service, this trainspotting mentality about the elysian fields of train travel is best left to Michael Portillo and his programmes.
It's a transport service to get you from A to B, bringing in a transfer at Bray enables many more services to be provided to people south of Bray, including Greystones and Wexford. Those transferring will be getting on at the first stop of the service so, in should be able to get a seat.
This idea of only having inter-city (a laugh considering the population of points south of Greystones) passengers is fine if those using that service are willing to pay significantly more for their tickets, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

it's not a "trainspotting mentality about the elysian fields of train travel" but a reality that long distance train travel must offer more then being a basic service. the idea of having a regional long distance service which is of decent quality is most certainly not a laugh and the population of points south only dictate service frequency, not the quality of the onboard environment of the service. those using the service pay enough both in fares and in taxes and if they are to pay more, they must get more in return. bringing in a transfer at bray is not needed to enable more services given they were able to enable more in the first place dispite being told in years previously how it couldn't be done because of dart. it would also kill the line south of greystones.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The ironic thing here is those opposed to transferring are most likely transferring.... At Connolly to either a Bus, Luas or taxi.

again this is irrelevant and a way to miss the point (which i suspect is the whole point)

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

Seems like you don't want to debate the timetable anymore, seeing as I've proven that it's not more than a couple of minutes faster.

you haven't proven that it's not more then a couple of minutes faster. you have shown a timetable that on paper claims it, but sometimes, what is on paper won't always be the same as what happens in practice.

CatInABox wrote: »

Keeping things the way that they are is what will kill the line, and what I'm suggesting is actually a way to improve service on the line by increasing frequency, while only adding a couple of minutes onto your journey.

what your suggesting is a way to kill the line, and for a increased journey time which in reality will be a lot more then a "couple of minutes" all for a supposed "service frequency increase" which won't happen (and can happen as it is) . all based on no knowledge of the service, but based on using whatever you can to throw mud behind this idea that would only happen in CIE land.

CatInABox wrote: »

He'd tell you that increased frequency leads to increased usage, even if it involves the creation of an interchange. That's literally one of the main points of his BusConnects proposal.

he would also tell you that increased frequency does not lead to increased usage when a service that has always been direct to the capital because it needs to be, is replaced by an indirect one where someone changes on to a all stops, hugely over-crowded and very slow service, and that interchanges only happen where they make actual sense, and should not be implemented for the sake of having a change, which is exactly what this idea would be. the bus connects proposal is irrelevant given it's not a like for like comparison.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

again this is irrelevant and a way to miss the point (which i suspect is the whole point)

How am I missing the point ? Why is it OK to transfer onward at Connolly but not Bray? We've already proven the IC train only about 3 minutes quicker, the IC train is basically a glorified DART . You're fundamentally opposed to a massively improved service for no reason.

end of the road

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How am I missing the point ? Why is it OK to transfer onward at Connolly but not Bray? We've already proven the IC train only about 3 minutes quicker, the IC train is basically a glorified DART . You're fundamentally opposed to a massively improved service for no reason.

have you not been reading the thread?
you didn't prove that the regional train is about 5/3/whatever it is this minute quicker. you showed the timetable, which in the case of timetables in ireland they won't always operate to the exact specifications. + my experience via actually using the service regularly does not corelate to your claims.
the regional train is not a glorified dart, it's a long distance regional service. i'm fundamentally opposed to a degraded service for lots of reasons already given in the thread. i'm fundamentally opposed to 1 lot of service users being disproportionately screwed over for another service when both are and can continue to be accommodated.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

you haven't proven that it's not more then a couple of minutes faster. you have shown a timetable that on paper claims it, but sometimes, what is on paper won't always be the same as what happens in practice.

It was directly from the real time station info, this very morning. The train from Gorey came in behind the scheduled time. You are ignoring this because it doesn't suit your argument.

end of the road wrote: »

what your suggesting is a way to kill the line, and for a increased journey time which in reality will be a lot more then a "couple of minutes" all for a supposed "service frequency increase" which won't happen (and can happen as it is) . all based on no knowledge of the service, but based on using whatever you can to throw mud behind this idea that would only happen in CIE land.

I'll admit, the service increase could come right now, if there was more trains. It's unlikely however, as I can't see Irish Rail buying more trains to put on that route. By having the train terminate at Greystones, it frees up that train to return southbound.

end of the road wrote: »

he would also tell you that increased frequency does not lead to increased usage when a service that has always been direct to the capital because it needs to be, is replaced by an indirect one where someone changes on to a all stops, hugely over-crowded and very slow service, and that interchanges only happen where they make actual sense, and should not be implemented for the sake of having a change, which is exactly what this idea would be. the bus connects proposal is irrelevant given it's not a like for like comparison.

Again, that's literally what he's doing with BusConnects. He's taking infrequent, direct buses into town, and turning them into a more frequent bus that only goes to an interchange station, where people then change onto a more frequent route.

It's obviously not a trains to trains comparison, but it's indicative of his thinking.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

have you not been reading the thread?
you didn't prove that the regional train is about 5/3/whatever it is this minute quicker. you showed the timetable, which in the case of timetables in ireland they won't always operate to the exact specifications. + my experience via actually using the service regularly does not corelate to your claims.
the regional train is not a glorified dart, it's a long distance regional service. i'm fundamentally opposed to a degraded service for lots of reasons already given in the thread. i'm fundamentally opposed to 1 lot of service users being disproportionately screwed over for another service when both are and can continue to be accommodated.

Okay since you like to declaring timetables and usage reports fake news . Let's try this one.


Train B in on the main line to Connolly from Wexford, Train A is ahead of train B . Train A is a DART calling at all stations. The main line has no passing loops . Can Train B arrive at Connolly before train A?

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

I'll admit, the service increase could come right now, if there was more trains. It's unlikely however, as I can't see Irish Rail buying more trains to put on that route.

they wouldn't be buying more trains to put on that route, they would be buying more trains in general as we need them. IE don't buy stock for specific lines, they buy stock for a certain type of route. suburban for suburban and long distance for long distance.

CatInABox wrote: »

By having the train terminate at Greystones, it frees up that train to return southbound.

and turns passengers away, making the line worse off.

IE 222

I really don't understand why some people would object to having additional frequencies added which require a change.

A few small changes in scheduling and timetabling would really transform the Wexford line. By cutting the number of direct services a day from 4 to 3 you could add additional services given a total of 7 a day. 3 Dublin - Rosslare Europort and 4 Bray - Wexford is more than adequate. Demand beyond Wexford doesn't require anymore than 3 services a day. The change at Bray is made simple with the bay platform and will not add any additional time to the journey as the ICR has no way of overtaken the Darts ahead of it anyway. When 10min Darts begin Wexford trains will suffer further.

Running Connolly- Rosslare trains non stop between Greystones and Connolly will remove Dart passengers off the service which will also allow IE to reduce the capacity to a 3 car ICR which will also ensure the services are ran exclusively with Intercity stock. IE will only need to allocate 3 3 car ICRs to this route and add capacity elsewhere and keep stock on the route instead of the current system of running to and from Dundalk ect.

Timetables and journey times will also be improved as less services will be clashing with Dart.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

I really don't understand why some people would object to having additional frequencies added which require a change.

A few small changes in scheduling and timetabling would really transform the Wexford line. By cutting the number of direct services a day from 4 to 3 you could add additional services given a total of 7 a day. 3 Dublin - Rosslare Europort and 4 Bray - Wexford is more than adequate. Demand beyond Wexford doesn't require anymore than 3 services a day. The change at Bray is made simple with the bay platform and will not add any additional time to the journey as the ICR has no way of overtaken the Darts ahead of it anyway. When 10min Darts begin Wexford trains will suffer further.

Running Connolly- Rosslare trains non stop between Greystones and Connolly will remove Dart passengers off the service which will also allow IE to reduce the capacity to a 3 car ICR which will also ensure the services are ran exclusively with Intercity stock. IE will only need to allocate 3 3 car ICRs to this route and add capacity elsewhere and keep stock on the route instead of the current system of running to and from Dundalk ect.

Timetables and journey times will also be improved as less services will be clashing with Dart.

a change for change sake (which is all this would be) makes the service inconvenient, unuser friendly, and a tedium to use. and the idea that it would only add a tiny bit of time to the journey is fantasy IMO. any add to journey time is an add to journey time, the trade off for an add to journey time with the 10 minute dart is a direct service.
sorry but nobody is going to waste their time with this nonsense when they can take the car or bus direct, increased frequency or not.