Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

Isambard

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Limerick passengers change all the tme at Limerick Junction and the conecting train is as poster above said waiting at the platform. It's rather Dart like too!

Since there are only 3 services a day from Wexford as opposed to 6+ to/from Sligo and Belfast we're looking for a solution that might improve fthe Wexford service and not the others

Yes they do transfer at LJ but how many extra passengers would there be with a decent through service to Dublin and Cork? People do not like changing trains, particulalrly to one that is of a lesser quality. Try working on your laptop or tablet on a Dart

Isambard

if they can do bi-modal trains in the Uk, why can't you have through trains that switch power half way giving the best of all worlds to all travelleers.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

a change for change sake (which is all this would be) makes the service inconvenient, unuser friendly, and a tedium to use. and the idea that it would only add a tiny bit of time to the journey is fantasy IMO. any add to journey time is an add to journey time, the trade off for an add to journey time with the 10 minute dart is a direct service.
sorry but nobody is going to waste their time with this nonsense when they can take the car or bus direct, increased frequency or not.

How would nearly doubling the service be for change sake? I agree it would be pointless to curtail services to Bray while retaining the current timetable and have stock sitting around Bray doing nothing for hours.

The journey time won't increase with a change of trains. When 10 min Dart come on board there will be at least 3 Darts ahead of the Wexford service between Bray - Connolly it can't possibly get ahead of them. The Wexford service is timetabled to cater for Darts which also gives some long dewell times waiting for UP & DOWN trains to loop each other at stations. Reducing the number of services through the Dart sections will allow services to run more freely without needing a path along the Dart network.

LeinsterDub

Isambard wrote: »

Yes they do transfer at LJ but how many extra passengers would there be with a decent through service to Dublin and Cork? People do not like changing trains, particulalrly to one that is of a lesser quality. Try working on your laptop or tablet on a Dart

That's all well and good and in an ideal word of infinite budgets we'd remove LJ and we'd quad track and electricity the entire network. Given we don't have that how would you improve the Wexford line?

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

Yes they do transfer at LJ but how many extra passengers would there be with a decent through service to Dublin and Cork? People do not like changing trains, particulalrly to one that is of a lesser quality. Try working on your laptop or tablet on a Dart

But Limerick has peak time direct trains which the same would be done for Wexford.

Lord Glentoran

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The ironic thing here is those opposed to transferring are most likely transferring.... At Connolly to either a Bus, Luas or taxi.

There is of course an argument that if the NTA did enforce a change to/from DART at Bray, they would be in practice favouring private interests.

LeinsterDub

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

There is of course an argument that if the NTA did enforce a change to/from DART at Bray, they would be in practice favouring private interests.

Do go on. How could that be argued?

L1011

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

There is of course an argument that if the NTA did enforce a change to/from DART at Bray, they would be in practice favouring private interests.

Improving service frequency at the cost of minutes, at best, is not even vaguely arguable as favouring private bus operators.

Isambard

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's all well and good and in an ideal word of infinite budgets we'd remove LJ and we'd quad track and electricity the entire network. Given we don't have that how would you improve the Wexford line?

i already mentioned bimodal trains

specialbyte

Isambard wrote: »

i already mentioned bimodal trains

I can't believe I'm wading into this argument but...

What does the fuel type of the train have to do with the schedule, or frequency. Almost nothing. It doesn't matter if the trains from Wexford are bi-modal, diesel, or steam trains for that matter. Long-distance regional services stuck behind frequent stopping trains don't go much faster than the frequent stopping train ahead of them.

What is being proposed here is how could you improve the level of service on the Wexford line without any extra resources. Every other proposal has required mad new resources or ignores the benefits. Interchanging is an inconvenient but it can allow for a far better allocation of resources.

There are another group of people who would greatly appreciate improved frequency south of Greystones and those are the people who are not commuting into Dublin city. Like someone trying to go from Wicklow to Arklow.

Anyway I feel like most of this is a futile argument anyway. Trains are expensive. They have huge fixed costs. But they are great at moving huge numbers of people. The Wexford line sees small loads and even if you increased the ridership 10 times you'd still be a small numbers of people using the line. Given the fantastic road network being developed throughout Wicklow and Wexford you have to ask if investment in rail is still the most effective way to move people in this part of the country. I doubt it is and I love rail networks.

end of the road

specialbyte wrote: »

I can't believe I'm wading into this argument but...

What does the fuel type of the train have to do with the schedule, or frequency. Almost nothing. It doesn't matter if the trains from Wexford are bi-modal, diesel, or steam trains for that matter. Long-distance regional services stuck behind frequent stopping trains don't go much faster than the frequent stopping train ahead of them.

What is being proposed here is how could you improve the level of service on the Wexford line without any extra resources. Every other proposal has required mad new resources or ignores the benefits. Interchanging is an inconvenient but it can allow for a far better allocation of resources.

There are another group of people who would greatly appreciate improved frequency south of Greystones and those are the people who are not commuting into Dublin city. Like someone trying to go from Wicklow to Arklow.

Anyway I feel like most of this is a futile argument anyway. Trains are expensive. They have huge fixed costs. But they are great at moving huge numbers of people. The Wexford line sees small loads and even if you increased the ridership 10 times you'd still be a small numbers of people using the line. Given the fantastic road network being developed throughout Wicklow and Wexford you have to ask if investment in rail is still the most effective way to move people in this part of the country. I doubt it is and I love rail networks.

and how many are going from wicklow to arklow compared to dublin?

the wexford line sees decent loads and is used. given the decent road network being developed throughout wicklow and wexford, you don't have to ask if rail investment is still the most effective way to move people in this part of the country, as it is, as it keeps road congestion and road spend to a minimum and means a better road network for those who really need to use it, and it insures those using the rail service stay with public transport.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

and how many are going from wicklow to arklow compared to dublin?

the wexford line sees decent loads and is used. given the decent road network being developed throughout wicklow and wexford, you don't have to ask if rail investment is still the most effective way to move people in this part of the country, as it is, as it keeps road congestion and road spend to a minimum and means a better road network for those who really need to use it, and it insures those using the rail service stay with public transport.

Seen as the first southbound train doesn't arrive into Arklow until after 11am I guess F all use it in comparison.

What investment do you envisage bringing improvements and driving usage.

prinzeugen

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Okay since you like to declaring timetables and usage reports fake news . Let's try this one.


Train B in on the main line to Connolly from Wexford, Train A is ahead of train B . Train A is a DART calling at all stations. The main line has no passing loops . Can Train B arrive at Connolly before train A?

Its happened before (many years ago I admit, train was still loco hauled).

Was on a Rosslare - Dublin train that was very late into Bray. DART was held in Dun Laoghaire and we passed it "wrong line".

Parts (if not all) of the DART lines are bi-directional which means trains can run on any line in any direction.

Edit- Going by my old track diagram book, the Howth Junction to Dun Loaghaire section is bi-directional but this may have changed to include more line.

LeinsterDub

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its happened before (many years ago I admit, train was still loco hauled).

Was on a Rosslare - Dublin train that was very late into Bray. DART was held in Dun Laoghaire and we passed it "wrong line".

Parts (if not all) of the DART lines are bi-directional which means trains can run on any line in any direction.

Edit- Going by my old track diagram book, the Howth Junction to Dun Loaghaire section is bi-directional but this may have changed to include more line.

Good look doing that now when there are DART's every 10 minutes. Also my point still stands and has been ignored by EOTR

bk

end of the road wrote: »

the wexford line sees decent loads and is used.

Just 541 per day!

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

Just 541 per day!

Not bad considering the rubbish frequency, timings, price and total lack of promotion.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Just 541 per day!

And how many of that 541 actually pay the fare and aren't on free travel

Del.Monte

Stephen15 wrote: »

And how many of that 541 actually pay the fare and aren't on free travel

I suspect that a lot of DART users are free travel users too.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not bad considering the rubbish frequency, timings, price and total lack of promotion.

No it is not, that is insanely bad. That is just 10 coach loads or 6 Dublin Bus, all day long!

Plus you really don't want me to start digging up the subsidy per passenger figures for this line.

Isambard

specialbyte wrote: »

I can't believe I'm wading into this argument but...

What does the fuel type of the train have to do with the schedule, or frequency. Almost nothing. It doesn't matter if the trains from Wexford are bi-modal, diesel, or steam trains for that matter. Long-distance regional services stuck behind frequent stopping trains don't go much faster than the frequent stopping train ahead of them.

What is being proposed here is how could you improve the level of service on the Wexford line without any extra resources. Every other proposal has required mad new resources or ignores the benefits. Interchanging is an inconvenient but it can allow for a far better allocation of resources.

There are another group of people who would greatly appreciate improved frequency south of Greystones and those are the people who are not commuting into Dublin city. Like someone trying to go from Wicklow to Arklow.

Anyway I feel like most of this is a futile argument anyway. Trains are expensive. They have huge fixed costs. But they are great at moving huge numbers of people. The Wexford line sees small loads and even if you increased the ridership 10 times you'd still be a small numbers of people using the line. Given the fantastic road network being developed throughout Wicklow and Wexford you have to ask if investment in rail is still the most effective way to move people in this part of the country. I doubt it is and I love rail networks.

it matters in that it's a way for the service not to take the step backwards (and towards oblivion at the same time!) by introducing a change of train where one has never been before. Thin end of the wedge.As someone already pointed out, will a change then become the future norm for other services? At Maynooth for instance?

To turn your question around, why is a change of train thought necessary, it could continue as now , except that people with vested interests want it's path to improve their own services.

Stephen15

Why not start some of the Bray to Maynooth and the Bray to Drogheda services in Wexford or Gorey. Would make more sense rather than having extra services only terminating in Connolly as the train could serve a double purpose.

bk

Isambard wrote: »

it matters in that it's a way for the service not to take the step backwards (and towards oblivion at the same time!) by introducing a change of train where one has never been before. Thin end of the wedge.As someone already pointed out, will a change then become the future norm for other services? At Maynooth for instance?

It is already the reality for most services to Limerick and Tralee. Was it a step backwards for them?

No, it allowed for much higher frequency on these routes and passenger numbers are well up on those lines as a result.

This isn't a new thing, it has already happened on the Irish Rail network and it was a highly successful change.

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

No it is not, that is insanely bad. That is just 10 coach loads or 6 Dublin Bus, all day long!

Plus you really don't want me to start digging up the subsidy per passenger figures for this line.

You could try replying to my points instead of just repeating your roads are good railways (outside the Pale) are bad mantra.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why not start some of the Bray to Maynooth and the Bray to Drogheda services in Wexford or Gorey. Would make more sense than having extra services only terminating in Connolly as the train could serve a double purpose.

Certainly makes sense on the face of it. Trains are already running to Bray so no additional load on the mainline.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

You could try replying to my points instead of just repeating your roads are good railways (outside the Pale) are bad mantra.

What points? The fact that this line carries insanely low numbers of passengers. That if it was a Dublin Bus route it would be one of the quietest in the city?

Lets be honest, the only reason this gets talked about is because it is a rail line and that comes with very high operating and maintenance costs.

This route wouldn't even get discussed if it was a bus route. Some people seem to have a strong emotional attachment to slow rural trains winding their way through the countryside!

In reality 541 people a day is nothing in the greater scheme of Dublins public transport system. A laughable drop in the ocean.

The line is there, so I would like to see it better utilised with higher frequency services and any other smart proposals people have for realistic improvement of the line.

But if you step back and look at the bigger picture, how few people actually use it, how small it's potential is given how low populated the towns along the route is and how far they are and how meandering and slow the route is, then you have to say, yes I get why Irish Rail would rather just shut it down south of Greystones and focus on DART which has far more potential to get people out of their cars then this line ever will.

storker

XPS_Zero wrote: »

At the moment anyone who comes down the steps at Shankill station (where trains come at 15 minute intervals) and see their dart is 10-15 late they IMMEDIATELY know "ok so the Rosslare trains late then" and IT'S ALWAYS LATE.

What's missing from this picture is the scene at Greystones a little earlier where the Rosslare train is delayed because of a late-arriving DART train. This is a frequent occurrence. The train runs on time up to that point.

Why would people abandon it for the car if they have not already done so? There is only a barely noticeable time difference so what difference, to the passenger , does changing a platform make and then sitting on a slightly different train?

As a rail commuter who sometimes by car (Wicklow town to city centre). This statement does not tally at all with my experience.

For me, the problem with changing is that I work from the Rosslare train on the way in, so moving from a table to having a laptop balance on my knee and nowhere to stow my bag wouldn't really work. I see a lot other commuters working too. However, that's only a requirement when I get the 0908 from Wicklow. At other times I wouldn't object to changing.

However, if change-only services were introduced with no through services, I'd still rather take the train that drive. Or go by bus.

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

What points? The fact that this line carries insanely low numbers of passengers. That if it was a Dublin Bus route it would be one of the quietest in the city?

Lets be honest, the only reason this gets talked about is because it is a rail line and that comes with very high operating and maintenance costs.

This route wouldn't even get discussed if it was a bus route. Some people seem to have a strong emotional attachment to slow rural trains winding their way through the countryside!

In reality 541 people a day is nothing in the greater scheme of Dublins public transport system. A laughable drop in the ocean.

The line is there, so I would like to see it better utilised with higher frequency services and any other smart proposals people have for realistic improvement of the line.

But if you step back and look at the bigger picture, how few people actually use it, how small it's potential is given how low populated the towns along the route is and how far they are and how meandering and slow the route is, then you have to say, yes I get why Irish Rail would rather just shut it down south of Greystones and focus on DART which has far more potential to get people out of their cars then this line ever will.

Post>117.

'Not bad considering the rubbish frequency, timings, price and total lack of promotion'. Throw in downgraded catering, overcrowding between Bray/Connolly/Bray...enough points for you to answer.

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not bad considering the rubbish frequency, timings, price and total lack of promotion.

and often there are way more using it then they claim. you have saw it i'm sure, i have saw it also.

bk wrote: »

No it is not, that is insanely bad. That is just 10 coach loads or 6 Dublin Bus, all day long!

Plus you really don't want me to start digging up the subsidy per passenger figures for this line.

you can dig it up away, the subsidy is small enough. we discussed it before in the last thread on this very same discussion.

bk wrote: »

It is already the reality for most services to Limerick and Tralee. Was it a step backwards for them?

No, it allowed for much higher frequency on these routes and passenger numbers are well up on those lines as a result.

This isn't a new thing, it has already happened on the Irish Rail network and it was a highly successful change.

again the changes for limerick and tralee services aren't comparible or relevant, as they are changing from branch services on to a limited stop, fast inter city service. and if those lines returned to direct services, cork services could actually be made even more limited stop or even non-stop which would really make them a premium option. passenger numbers were good on those lines already and direct trains would likely increase the numbers again. but even as is they are in a lot better situation then a change at bray for change sake would leave users of the wexford line.

bk wrote: »

What points? The fact that this line carries insanely low numbers of passengers. That if it was a Dublin Bus route it would be one of the quietest in the city?

Lets be honest, the only reason this gets talked about is because it is a rail line and that comes with very high operating and maintenance costs.

This route wouldn't even get discussed if it was a bus route. Some people seem to have a strong emotional attachment to slow rural trains winding their way through the countryside!

In reality 541 people a day is nothing in the greater scheme of Dublins public transport system. A laughable drop in the ocean.

The line is there, so I would like to see it better utilised with higher frequency services and any other smart proposals people have for realistic improvement of the line.

But if you step back and look at the bigger picture, how few people actually use it, how small it's potential is given how low populated the towns along the route is and how far they are and how meandering and slow the route is, then you have to say, yes I get why Irish Rail would rather just shut it down south of Greystones and focus on DART which has far more potential to get people out of their cars then this line ever will.

the towns along the line have good populations. those of us who have been using the railway for a long time, especially the wexford line, actually know that the reason why irish rail would want to shut it down south of greystones, is nothing to do with focusing on dart, passenger numbers, populations, subsidy or profit and loss.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

those of us who have been using the railway for a long time, especially the wexford line, actually know that the reason why irish rail would want to shut it down south of greystones, is nothing to do with focusing on dart, passenger numbers, populations, subsidy or profit and loss.

You can't leave us hanging like this. Tell us the reason!

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

Post>117.

'Not bad considering the rubbish frequency, timings, price and total lack of promotion'. Throw in downgraded catering, overcrowding between Bray/Connolly/Bray...enough points for you to answer.

It still doesn't change the fact of how few people use it and how irrelevant it is in the bigger picture.

BTW the above is ironic given that most of us here are arguing for improving the frequency of this line!

The truth is you could put the fanciest intercity trains and catering on it and it wouldn't change the fundamentals of the line, geography and populations it serves.

It is a supposed intercity service that doesn't serve any actual cities on it! Just a couple of small towns that add up to a population of just 68,000, too far for regular commute to Dublin across an old rural single track line that meanders through the countryside and then runs into the back of the issues of Brayhead and one of the busiest mass transit lines in the country!

Add to that the fact that most people in those rural towns drive and the reality that by car you can make the same journey in well over an hour faster. Hell even the coach is an hour faster.

The truth is it is a crap line, with crap demographics and populations too small to make it worth spending any serious money on it.

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Post>117.

'Not bad considering the rubbish frequency, timings, price and total lack of promotion'. Throw in downgraded catering, overcrowding between Bray/Connolly/Bray...enough points for you to answer.

yes this is it. Running down services with a view to closing them is an IE staple. I can't think why rail fans would support further pruning of this or other services. They need investment and decent meaningful timetables.

CatInABox

Isambard wrote: »

yes this is it. Running down services with a view to closing them is an IE staple. I can't think why rail fans would support further pruning of this or other services. They need investment and decent meaningful timetables.

I don't think that adding an interchange and increasing the number of services would be "running down services".

They may need investment, but the likelihood of getting it is vanishingly small.

Isambard

merely adding the change of train will further erode the usership. People will just drive. Then with even less passengers, and no effort at all to attract more, the justification for closure will edge nearer.

CatInABox

Isambard wrote: »

merely adding the change of train will further erode the usership. People will just drive. Then with even less passengers, and no effort at all to attract more, the justification for closure will edge nearer.

Or the fact that the times are now more frequent and convenient could drive passenger numbers up.

Isambard

changing trains is not more convenient and will a more frequent timetable really emerge (and if it does , how long will it last) ?

CatInABox

Isambard wrote: »

changing trains is not more convenient and will a more frequent timetable really emerge (and if it does , how long will it last) ?

A more frequent service is definitely more convenient, and an interchange that involves moving across a platform is not a major inconvenience.

Terminating the train at Greystones/Bray will allow the train to return to Gorey as a shuttle type service. Jarrett Walker seems to be guiding the Government/NTA on how to manage and measure changing the frequency on a service, and he says that there has to be, at the very least, a years worth of data.

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

Or the fact that the times are now more frequent and convenient could drive passenger numbers up.

not when they have to change part of the way onto an over-crowded, stopping at every station dart. that would even drive me away from the railway.

CatInABox wrote: »

A more frequent service is definitely more convenient, and an interchange that involves moving across a platform is not a major inconvenience.

Terminating the train at Greystones/Bray will allow the train to return to Gorey as a shuttle type service. Jarrett Walker seems to be guiding the Government/NTA on how to manage and measure changing the frequency on a service, and he says that there has to be, at the very least, a years worth of data.

it actually is an inconvenience when there are more direct options availible. going to dublin can also allow the train to turn around and go back all be it a bit later, yet it will still offer a direct, convenient user-friendly service.
Jarrett Walker isn't really relevant here IMO, as what he supports and strives for is options where those options actually make sense, and not the implementation of options for implementation's sake, or because it suits the company or the NTA/government, which is what a change at greystones for wexford services would be doing.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

not when they have to change part of the way onto an over-crowded, stopping at every station dart. that would even drive me away from the railway.

If you're interchanging at Greystones/Bray, then the Dart will be empty, with a seat for almost everyone.

end of the road wrote: »

it actually is an inconvenience when there are more direct options availible. going to dublin can also allow the train to turn around and go back all be it a bit later, yet it will still offer a direct, convenient user-friendly service.

It could, but it won't. You'd be impacting on the Dart Schedule twice, once on the way in, once on the way out.

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

If you're interchanging at Greystones/Bray, then the Dart will be empty, with a seat for almost everyone.

in reality there is no guarantee of it, and it ultimately doesn't matter, as it would be a hell of a lot worse of a service then what we have even with an increase in frequency. the direct service is the only option we will except.

CatInABox wrote: »

It could, but it won't. You'd be impacting on the Dart Schedule twice, once on the way in, once on the way out.

again that doesn't matter, it would be no different to another dart impacting other darts. an issue blown out of all proportion.

L1011

CatInABox wrote: »

It could, but it won't. You'd be impacting on the Dart Schedule twice, once on the way in, once on the way out.

Which, even if it is one train impacted each way, will usually result in more inconvenienced passengers than the entire current daily usage of the entire line south of Greystones.

If an enhanced service - which can only realistically be delivered by terminating at Bray - results in massively increased usage there would be scope to return direct services.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

in reality there is no guarantee of it, and it ultimately doesn't matter, as it would be a hell of a lot worse of a service then what we have even with an increase in frequency. the direct service is the only option we will except.

Seriously, it's the end of the line. At most, there'd be twenty to thirty people sitting on it already, and that'll reduce down when the ten minute schedule comes in.

The direct service might be the only one that you'd accept, but I'd guess that offering a service that goes more often and later with an interchange will be more appealing to more people.

end of the road wrote: »

again that doesn't matter, it would be no different to another dart impacting other darts. an issue blown out of all proportion.

It's still two different interruptions to the ten minute Dart service, which defeats the purpose of a turn-up-and-go service.

end of the road

CatInABox wrote: »

The direct service might be the only one that you'd accept, but I'd guess that offering a service that goes more often and later with an interchange will be more appealing to more people.

not with the change no . the change will put users off because they are getting nothing in return. it's simply replacing 1 set of issues with the service, with other issues. making it inconvenient, unuser friendly and the rest.

CatInABox wrote: »

It's still two different interruptions to the ten minute Dart service, which defeats the purpose of a turn-up-and-go service.

no more an interuptian then other darts interupting other darts. blown out of all proportion tbh. it will still be a turn up and go frequency.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

no more an interuptian then other darts interupting other darts. blown out of all proportion tbh. it will still be a turn up and go frequency.

Passengers at all stops can get on and off the other DARTs. They can't on a semi-express diesel.

You know that change isn't always inherently bad, right?

Del.Monte

L1011 wrote: »

Passengers at all stops can get on and off the other DARTs. They can't on a semi-express diesel.

You know that change isn't always inherently bad, right?

Except where CIE are concerned.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

not with the change no . the change will put users off because they are getting nothing in return. it's simply replacing 1 set of issues with the service, with other issues. making it inconvenient, unuser friendly and the rest.

They are getting a more frequent service, and realistically, it's the only way that they're going to get a more frequent service.

end of the road wrote: »

no more an interuptian then other darts interupting other darts. blown out of all proportion tbh. it will still be a turn up and go frequency.

It'll be stuck behind a Dart on the way in, and then stuck behind a Dart on the way out, which is a waste of a train. It could be bringing passengers back to Gorey at that stage.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Passengers at all stops can get on and off the other DARTs. They can't on a semi-express diesel.

You know that change isn't always inherently bad, right?

it is when
1. it's a change for the sake of it,
2. when it replaces 1 set of issues with another set of issues.
3. when it degrades part of what existed before the change.

CatInABox wrote: »

They are getting a more frequent service, and realistically, it's the only way that they're going to get a more frequent service.

it's not the only way we can get a more frequent service. it might be the only way we may get one, but it will be designed for the purpose of inconveniencing and driving away the users. it's a mute point anyway given we aren't going to get a more frequent service changes or not.

CatInABox wrote: »

It'll be stuck behind a Dart on the way in, and then stuck behind a Dart on the way out, which is a waste of a train. It could be bringing passengers back to Gorey at that stage.

it's not a waste of a train, as it will be providing a direct, convenient and user-friendly service to the people who use it. and it will be heading back to wexford also. even better for the users.

cython

end of the road wrote: »

in reality there is no guarantee of it, and it ultimately doesn't matter, as it would be a hell of a lot worse of a service then what we have even with an increase in frequency. the direct service is the only option we will except.

You say this repeatedly. However, two things spring to mind:

• Nobody elected you spokesperson for the south east, or indeed for the users of this line, so what's this we stuff?
• I'm from Enniscorthy originally, and I have friends and family who would happily take the train only for the completely farcical scheduling. They rather the comfort of the train over buses, but take the buses instead due to flexibility from the better schedule. Seeing as a number of these use cases involve taking a coach into town and then heading back out along the DART line, the option proposed here is win-win for them, and would attract their patronage.

Now obviously they and I are not necessarily representative of the whole (and as above, neither are you), but this serves to demonstrate that there is definitely a market for the proposal, and I doubt anyone here has the market research to say which demographic is larger, which should ultimately be the dictating factor.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

it is when
1. it's a change for the sake of it,
2. when it replaces 1 set of issues with another set of issues.
3. when it degrades part of what existed before the change.

It wouldn't be change for the sake of it; it would be a transformative enhancement.

When one set of issues is "this service is so irregular as to be useless" and the replacement issue is "I need to get up, go on a platform for two minutes and get on another train", the replacement is preferable.

The extremely minor degradation in end to end time could be made up by resolving TSRs or other speed improvements on the line - which heavier usage would justify.

CatInABox

end of the road wrote: »

it is when
1. it's a change for the sake of it,
2. when it replaces 1 set of issues with another set of issues.
3. when it degrades part of what existed before the change.

it's not the only way we can get a more frequent service. it might be the only way we may get one, but it will be designed for the purpose of inconveniencing and driving away the users. it's a mute point anyway given we aren't going to get a more frequent service changes or not.

it's not a waste of a train, as it will be providing a direct, convenient and user-friendly service to the people who use it. and it will be heading back to wexford also. even better for the users.

What you're suggesting is madness. When the ten minute schedule kicks in, your train would be stuck behind a Dart all the way to Connolly. Then it would be stuck behind a Dart all the way out to Greystones. That's 52 minutes each way.

If that same train had stopped at Greystones, waited to get passengers on, then headed back to Gorey, it'd be in Gorey in less than an hour. If they kept that schedule all day, just think what it could do for the people living near that line!

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

It wouldn't be change for the sake of it; it would be a transformative enhancement.

of course it would be change for change sake. a transformitive enhancement would be a frequent direct service.

L1011 wrote: »

When one set of issues is "this service is so irregular as to be useless" and the replacement issue is "I need to get up, go on a platform for two minutes and get on another train", the replacement is preferable.

in your opinion, which is fine.
in mine, and i suspect many others in the real world, it would be effectively giving us something similar to what we have, replacing 1 thing wrong with another thing wrong. it's removing the issues we want, not a rearranging of the deck chairs.

L1011 wrote: »

The extremely minor degradation in end to end time could be made up by resolving TSRs or other speed improvements on the line - which heavier usage would justify.

depending on the reasons for the TSRS existing, they could either be removed as is, or won't be regardless of usage. major works like realinement and so on won't happen regardless of usage because of the costs involved.