Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

Del.Monte

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm interested in public transport.

Anything else you feel should disqualify me from offering an opinion?

Did I say anything about disqualifying you - I asked a question.

end of the road

Podge_irl wrote: »

for a cost.

yes, transport costs money to run/operate/provide for.

Podge_irl wrote: »

They could put a train from Rosslare to Dublin every 30 minutes if they wanted but they're obviously not going to.

no they couldn't. the single track nature of the line south of greystones wouldn't allow for a 30 minute service. 2/3 hourly is the most likely allowence.

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would require more trains and would potentially interfere with a 10 minute DART frequency.

more trains are needed for every line anyway. interference with a 10 minute dart would be very likely to be so minimal as to be a non-issue.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Changing at Greystones would enable them to double the frequency essentially for free.

it wouldn't no . more trains would still be required. it would also kill the line anyway meaning not only would the frequency increase be gone quite quickly, even if it happened in the first place which it won't, but we would highly likely lose the lot

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's that or keep the frequency the same as it is - which is too infrequent to be all that viable. Those are the only two actual options.

or increasing the frequency of direct dublin services, which can be done. the 2 options you claim are the only 2 options are not the only options, they are the only options which are prefered as they don't improve the line but cause it's downfall, which is what is wanted by the powers that be.

john boye

end of the road wrote: »

we know thanks to people who actually use the service regularly

Have you got the actual numbers to hand then? Do tell. I assume you do given how readily you dismiss the official figures.

Podge_irl

end of the road wrote: »

yes, transport costs money to run/operate/provide for.



no they couldn't. the single track nature of the line south of greystones wouldn't allow for a 30 minute service. 2/3 hourly is the most likely allowence.



more trains are needed for every line anyway. interference with a 10 minute dart would be very likely to be so minimal as to be a non-issue.



it wouldn't no . more trains would still be required. it would also kill the line anyway meaning not only would the frequency increase be gone quite quickly, even if it happened in the first place which it won't, but we would highly likely lose the lot



or increasing the frequency of direct dublin services, which can be done. the 2 options you claim are the only 2 options are not the only options, they are the only options which are prefered as they don't improve the line but cause it's downfall, which is what is wanted by the powers that be.

Yes, and there is obviously a set amount set aside for the Wexford line which won't be increased.

You are taking an oddly conspiratorial tone to your argument to be honest. Maybe, just maybe, rather then trying to kill the line the are putting forth the only scenario that allows them to increase frequency without increasing costs. They are not going to buy more trains to put on a line that carries so few people. Your bizarre objection to a 10 second walk mid-journey is what will kill the line if that is indeed how everyone feels.

If they really wanted to kill the line they could just can it tomorrow morning.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

not when you have to change to a slow suburban service to complete the journey into dublin, no . much easier just to take the car.



no, you may as well not be. direct limited stop service is quicker. speaking as an actual user who uses it regularly.

it's not just the change of trains that will lose passengers, the onward journey, stopping at every station will be slower too, which will also lose passengers (I'm assuming the diesel trains don't stop every where that the Darts do)

Podge_irl

Isambard wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

not when you have to change to a slow suburban service to complete the journey into dublin, no . much easier just to take the car.



no, you may as well not be. direct limited stop service is quicker. speaking as an actual user who uses it regularly.

it's not just the change of trains that will lose passengers, the onward journey, stopping at every station will be slower too, which will also lose passengers (I'm assuming the diesel trains don't stop every where that the Darts do)

They don’t. But they also can’t overtake a dart so their ability to go quicker is fairly limited.

Isambard

Podge_irl wrote: »

They don’t. But they also can’t overtake a dart so their ability to go quicker is fairly limited.

depends on the timetable, if they depart a minute before a Dart, they'll run a fair way before they catch the previous one up. A 9 minute saving on a short journey is substantial, even more so at present before they increase the DART frequency.

end of the road

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yes, and there is obviously a set amount set aside for the Wexford line which won't be increased.

there isn't a "set" amount of stock for any line. a line will take a certain amount of trains to run it, but it's not set in stone given it comes from the general pool of stock.

Podge_irl wrote: »

You are taking an oddly conspiratorial tone to your argument to be honest.

it's called looking back at the history of railway operations since the founding of CIE. tells one a lot, along with their experiences.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, rather then trying to kill the line the are putting forth the only scenario that allows them to increase frequency without increasing costs.

they really aren't. costs will increase some way regardless of how frequency is increased. increased costs is a fact of life for improving transport services. you cannot improve transport services for free. no tbh i think it's more likely that if they were really interested in improving the line, then a more frequent direct to dublin service is what they would provide.

Podge_irl wrote: »

They are not going to buy more trains to put on a line that carries so few people.

they would not be buying more trains for a line which is claimed caries so few people, but which actually caries a lot more people then is claimed. they would be buying more rolling stock whenever they do so, for the general pool of rolling stock, because there is a general shortage of rolling stock.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Your bizarre objection to a 10 second walk mid-journey is what will kill the line if that is indeed how everyone feels.

my non-bizarre objection to a 10 second walk mid-journey is not what will kill the line. the powers that be and their general attitude to the line is what will kill the line. the implementation of this bizarre suggestion of having people change off a long distance regional service to continue the rest of their journey into dublin on an over-crowded, slow, all stops suburban service, where once there was a direct service, will kill the line even quicker.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

it's not just the change of trains that will lose passengers, the onward journey, stopping at every station will be slower too, which will also lose passengers (I'm assuming the diesel trains don't stop every where that the Darts do)

you are correct. the diesels stop at a couple of stops only. agreed the all stops nature of dart would drive wexford passengers away if they were forced to change on to it.

Podge_irl

Isambard wrote: »

depends on the timetable, if they depart a minute before a Dart, they'll run a fair way before they catch the previous one up. A 9 minute saving on a short journey is substantial, even more so at present before they increase the DART frequency.

Yeah, a 9 min saving would be fairly substantial. I don't think they are timed that carefully though. I'm not suggesting this idea is ideal or anything, but they need to work within the bounds set.

Podge_irl

Ultimately, EOTR, if the goal was to kill the line they would simply shut it down now. Making changes to reduce the already low numbers using it so they can then shut it down makes no sense.

Also, you can't keep claiming more people use the service then the official figures state with your only back-up being "I use the train". Unless you count people individually and keep a record of it which I doubt.

cython

end of the road wrote: »

we know thanks to people who actually use the service regularly.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Data has been presented which you continually try to refute with hand-waving and vague assertions (e.g. many more, but never providing a number), and doesn't seem to be convincing anyone that isn't already making the same argument - might be time for a change of tactic?

Isambard

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ultimately, EOTR, if the goal was to kill the line they would simply shut it down now. Making changes to reduce the already low numbers using it so they can then shut it down makes no sense.

Also, you can't keep claiming more people use the service then the official figures state with your only back-up being "I use the train". Unless you count people individually and keep a record of it which I doubt.

changing the timetable to reduce the usage is an age-old tactic. They can't just close it on a whim, it's not within their power. they need to persuade those who do have the power (the Politicians and the NRA amongst others) that the line is a dead duck.

Podge_irl

Isambard wrote: »

changing the timetable to reduce the usage is an age-old tactic. They can't just close it on a whim, it's not within their power. they need to persuade those who do have the power (the Politicians and the NRA amongst others) that the line is a dead duck.

Fair enough, I still think the increase in frequency is being overlooked as a benefit. The current timetable looks pretty useless already - a more useful, more frequent timetable would be more beneficial than being maybe 5 mins faster in my mind.

I have a hard time seeing ridership going down with more trains, even with the change. They are already in a fine position to argue the line is underperforming/unnecessary with that level of ridership.

I get that transfers can be kind of annoying. But its not the bloody apocalypse.

Isambard

you see 5 minutes faster? I see 5 minutes slower, by introducing a change.

People don't like changing. In my own case I (and my family) never use Banteer station which is about 7 minutes away, preferring to drive to Mallow, 20 minutes away as it avoids that change.

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

you see 5 minutes faster? I see 5 minutes slower, by introducing a change.

People don't like changing. In my own case I (and my family) never use Banteer station which is about 7 minutes away, preferring to drive to Mallow, 20 minutes away as it avoids that change.

Is parking free at Banteer station? I use Rathmore sometimes for the free parking, but often drive to Mallow for later and more frequent trains.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

Is parking free at Banteer station? I use Rathmore sometimes for the free parking, but often drive to Mallow for later and more frequent trains.

it is free yes.

Quackster

Isambard wrote: »

you see 5 minutes faster? I see 5 minutes slower, by introducing a change.

People don't like changing. In my own case I (and my family) never use Banteer station which is about 7 minutes away, preferring to drive to Mallow, 20 minutes away as it avoids that change.

If I was in your position, I would use Mallow too given you have twice as many trains and the fact that availability of the cheapest fares is much higher on the Cork-Dublin services that don't have a connection to Tralee.

Isambard

That doesn't come into our thinking, we just prefer not to have to change trains.

G_R

I was actually looking to get the train down to Gorey about 2 weeks ago but didn't as there was no trains coming back at any stage close to a time that suited (from memory there was maybe a 5 hr gap from 2-7pm?) so I got the bus instead.

I prefer the train to the bus, and would happily have gotten a DART to Bray to get a train to Gorey if it meant that there was more frequent services. Instead it lost a passenger.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Once the times are lined up correctly, I really don't see what all the fuss is over. Just walk across the bloody platform and continue on your journey.

marno21

Quackster wrote: »

If I was in your position, I would use Mallow too given you have twice as many trains and the fact that availability of the cheapest fares is much higher on the Cork-Dublin services that don't have a connection to Tralee.

Services that don't connect with Tralee services are also quieter for obvious reasons, but the lack of free parking at Mallow would be a deterrent to driving to Mallow and just using one of the branch line stations

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

true but only if the Dart has come right through from Rosslare .Changing trains will lose some of the passengers and endanger the viability of the line.

Loose some but will likely gain more by adding extra frequency.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

it's not just the change of trains that will lose passengers, the onward journey, stopping at every station will be slower too, which will also lose passengers (I'm assuming the diesel trains don't stop every where that the Darts do)

How will it be slower???

You will behind it on a IC train you CAN'T overtake the DART meaning the DART will arrive ahead of the IC service.

IE 222

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ultimately, EOTR, if the goal was to kill the line they would simply shut it down now. Making changes to reduce the already low numbers using it so they can then shut it down makes no sense.

Also, you can't keep claiming more people use the service then the official figures state with your only back-up being "I use the train". Unless you count people individually and keep a record of it which I doubt.

He's likely including the large number of DART passengers hopping onto the service. If Wexford services didn't stop at DART stations the trains would be over supplied with capacity. A 3car set would be more than adequate for these services.

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

How will it be slower???

You will behind it on a IC train you CAN'T overtake the DART meaning the DART will arrive ahead of the IC service.

it will inevitably result in a delay whilst the connecting train is awaited and loaded and the current train doesn't stop at every station whereas the replacement DART will. Slower

L1011

The current train will end up being roughly the same speed from Bray in once the 10 minute frequency comes in. As has been pointed out all through the thread.

Under unrealistic ideal circumstances and VERY specific scheduling it could be maybe 7 mins faster. It won't be in reality.

end of the road

G_R wrote: »

I was actually looking to get the train down to Gorey about 2 weeks ago but didn't as there was no trains coming back at any stage close to a time that suited (from memory there was maybe a 5 hr gap from 2-7pm?) so I got the bus instead.

I prefer the train to the bus, and would happily have gotten a DART to Bray to get a train to Gorey if it meant that there was more frequent services. Instead it lost a passenger.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Once the times are lined up correctly, I really don't see what all the fuss is over. Just walk across the bloody platform and continue on your journey.

when people can take the car or bus direct? nope.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

when people can take the car or bus direct? nope.

How do people get to said direct bus?

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

it will inevitably result in a delay whilst the connecting train is awaited and loaded and the current train doesn't stop at every station whereas the replacement DART will. Slower

Right the 2 - 3 mins it takes to transfer will be made up as you will no longer need the IC train to keep clearance as it can't enter the same signalling block anyway.

You seem to be confused about the effects of a stopping DART and a non stop IC train travelling along the same track. A number of DARTS will be ahead of the IC service. There is no overtaking points between Connolly and Bray. If a stopping DART departs 5 mins ahead of the IC service and takes 45mins to complete the journey and as we know the IC service can't overtake and must remain at least 1 signalling block behind the DART how can the IC service possibly complete the journey quicker than the DART ahead of it??? The time saved by not stopping is ineffective once it catches up with the stopping DART. Even the following DART behind the IC train will arrive in Connolly within 3 - 5mins of the IC train arriving.

Stephen15

How is ending service at Bray going to improve the service on the Wexford. How's it going to magically improve the timetable and magically make rolling stock appear out of nowhere.

Bray is only 21km from Dublin so it's not going to improve turnaround times or make journey times that much quicker so trains can run much more frequently either. Trains are still going to have to go back to Dublin for refuelling and cleaning so the trains will be dead running As Seirbis between Bray and Connolly on the Dart line.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

when people can take the car or bus direct? nope.

So why don't they take the car or bus already. They must be extremely direct as in door to door if having to make a 2 min transfer is going to make such a big difference to their daily commute. It will take longer to walk out of Connolly than transferring from one train to the other.

Your really clutching at straws here.

Podge_irl

Stephen15 wrote: »

How is ending service at Bray going to improve the service on the Wexford. How's it going to magically improve the timetable and magically make rolling stock appear out of nowhere.

Bray is only 21km from Dublin so it's not going to improve turnaround times or make journey times that much quicker so trains can run much more frequently either. Trains are still going to have to go back to Dublin for refuelling and cleaning so the trains will be dead running As Seirbis between Bray and Connolly on the Dart line.

Why?

I'll admit I'm not an expert on this so perhaps I am missing something but if you eliminate a 90 minute (at least) slow and fuel consumption heavy round trip from Greystones to Connolly then the train will be back in Gorey when it would only normally be back in Greystones. So it can run more frequently.

Stephen15

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

I'll admit I'm not an expert on this so perhaps I am missing something but if you eliminate a 90 minute (at least) slow and fuel consumption heavy round trip from Greystones to Connolly then the train will be back in Gorey when it would only normally be back in Greystones. So it can run more frequently.

Because no where along the Wexford line has a diesel pump or a train wash so trains will still have to go back to Dublin to be refuelled and washed.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

So why don't they take the car or bus already. They must be extremely direct as in door to door if having to make a 2 min transfer is going to make such a big difference to their daily commute. It will take longer to walk out of Connolly than transferring from one train to the other.

Your really clutching at straws here.

i'm really not. there is the change which will take longer in reality for various reasons, then there is the increased journey time due to crawling along and stopping at every station.
running direct offers userfriendlyness, convenience and a quicker journey time.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why?

I'll admit I'm not an expert on this so perhaps I am missing something but if you eliminate a 90 minute (at least) slow and fuel consumption heavy round trip from Greystones to Connolly then the train will be back in Gorey when it would only normally be back in Greystones. So it can run more frequently.

it has to be cleaned/serviced/examined/refueled etc, + run other diagrams. so it has to go to dublin.

Podge_irl

Stephen15 wrote: »

Because no where along the Wexford line has a diesel pump or a train wash so trains will still have to go back to Dublin to be refuelled and washed.

Including Gorey? I guess if we're talking about possible improvements that would be a lot cheaper than trying to triple/quad track the line anywhere at all above Bray.

end of the road wrote: »

i'm really not. there is the change which will take longer in reality for various reasons, then there is the increased journey time due to crawling along and stopping at every station.
running direct offers userfriendlyness, convenience and a quicker journey time.

This "crawling along and stopping at every station" stuff is nonsense though because the train can't overtake the darts doing exactly that anyway.

Jamie2k9

The changing will do more damage than good. A small bit of flexibility around the 10 minute DART would go along way. The whole 10 minute DART is a money pit particularly between 20.00-00.30 and 06.00-07.00.

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

How is ending service at Bray going to improve the service on the Wexford. How's it going to magically improve the timetable and magically make rolling stock appear out of nowhere.

Bray is only 21km from Dublin so it's not going to improve turnaround times or make journey times that much quicker so trains can run much more frequently either. Trains are still going to have to go back to Dublin for refuelling and cleaning so the trains will be dead running As Seirbis between Bray and Connolly on the Dart line.

It removes any conflict with DART. It allows Wexford trains to be timetabled with just Wexford trains removing long dewell times at the likes of Arklow when an UP & DOWN loop. It returns sets back onto the line sooner instead of double jobbing using both IC and DARTS to move passengers between Bray and Connolly. There is too many sets utilised on the Wexford line with current system of using it to put sets in and out of service. The line should only need 3 3car sets per day which will free up more stock to be used elsewhere.

Well at a minimum 90 mins will be saved by not having to run an IC train between Bray and Connolly and back again. The additional services would only need to run Bray - Wexford a journey time of 1.40mins. Keeping 3 direct trains a day whilst adding 4 Bray - Wexford services is very big improvement. No trains need to dead run. Trains don't need to be refueled every day. They can easily schedule the set doing the short section to rotate with a direct train by running the first Wexford to Connolly and swap set there while the first Rosslare runs to Bray only.

Stephen15

Podge_irl wrote: »

Including Gorey? I guess if we're talking about possible improvements that would be a lot cheaper than trying to triple/quad track the line anywhere at all above Bray.

Nowhere along the Wexford line includes Gorey so the answer is yes.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

i'm really not. there is the change which will take longer in reality for various reasons, then there is the increased journey time due to crawling along and stopping at every station.
running direct offers userfriendlyness, convenience and a quicker journey time.



it has to be cleaned/serviced/examined/refueled etc, + run other diagrams. so it has to go to dublin.

A DART will be waiting. If people want to plodder along there will be another one in 10mins.

As explained to you the journey time won't be increased. If anything it will likely speed up as Wexford services won't need to be timed to fit in around DART. It's not just the Connolly - Greystones section were DART holds up the Wexford service.

end of the road

Podge_irl wrote: »

Including Gorey? I guess if we're talking about possible improvements that would be a lot cheaper than trying to triple/quad track the line anywhere at all above Bray.

would be cheaper again to use the existing depot facilities. not a chance is a depot going to be built at wexford or gorey to service trains. so to droghida/portlaoise is where they will go.
if bray to connolly was ever trippled (unlikely) it would be nothing to do with wexford services (even if they would benefit from it) . passing loops where doable is more likely, and they are needed regardless of whether wexford services exist or not.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The changing will do more damage than good. A small bit of flexibility around the 10 minute DART would go along way. The whole 10 minute DART is a money pit particularly between 20.00-00.30 and 06.00-07.00.

So run all Wexford services off peak.

10 min DART is needed. Yes some flexibility should be given with terminating the odd DART in Dun Laoghaire and allowing a 12 min gap where an IC service can run inbetween but doing this more than once during peak will knock everything out of place for the DART timetable. It's not unreasonable to cut the number of direct trains to 3 while providing 4 additional Bray - Wexford service in return. The line is obviously over congested. If demand is a high as some people suggest the service level will need to change once DART goes 10mins.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

would be cheaper again to use the existing depot facilities. not a chance is a depot going to be built at wexford or gorey to service trains. so to droghida/portlaoise is where they will go.
if bray to connolly was ever trippled (unlikely) it would be nothing to do with wexford services (even if they would benefit from it) . passing loops where doable is more likely, and they are needed regardless of whether wexford services exist or not.

Again trains don't need to be serviced each night.

Passing loops already exist and come with a very high price tag. It's not practical to have them at every second station. Even if used they will still require services to slow and possibly stop while the train ahead moves into the passing loop. The other issue you run into then is trains travelling in the opposite direction are affected then to. You also have the additional cost of wrong line running if the section is not already equipped.

Stephen15

IE 222 wrote: »

Again trains don't need to be serviced each night.

But they do need to be washed, cleaned and refuelled every night.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

So run all Wexford services off peak.

10 min DART is needed. Yes some flexibility should be given with terminating the odd DART in Dun Laoghaire and allowing a 12 min gap where an IC service can run inbetween but doing this more than once during peak will knock everything out of place for the DART timetable. It's not unreasonable to cut the number of direct trains to 3 while providing 4 additional Bray - Wexford service in return. The line is obviously over congested. If demand is a high as some people suggest the service level will need to change once DART goes 10mins.

Wexford services at peak are fine but a 2-3 minute adjustment to some DARTs would help.

I note nobody wants to cancel the 2900 services from Bray at peak hours, with a 10 minute DART they are not needed because people can just change in the city center!

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

But they do need to be washed, cleaned and refuelled every night.

No they don't, what a ridiculous comment to make. If that's the case nothing would be stabled anywhere but Dublin.

Rosslare has trains stabled overnight and even the weekends already. What about everywhere else, Galway, Westport, Sligo and so on. How could they possibly have early morning services if everything needed to be returned to Dublin to be put through the wash road.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Wexford services at peak are fine but a 2-3 minute adjustment to some DARTs would help.

I note nobody wants to cancel the 2900 services from Bray at peak hours, with a 10 minute DART they are not needed because people can just change in the city center!

Well many would disagree that there fine. The 2 - 3 min gap relies on everything running on time. On it's own it's not enough to improve services.

Your right there not needed although most are only sent to Bray for storage for a few hours. There is no demand to speed these up either but if it creates a clear path the service should be terminated elsewhere.

LeinsterDub

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The changing will do more damage than good. A small bit of flexibility around the 10 minute DART would go along way. The whole 10 minute DART is a money pit particularly between 20.00-00.30 and 06.00-07.00.

Yes because in this conversation the DART is the money pit.

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

Right the 2 - 3 mins it takes to transfer will be made up as you will no longer need the IC train to keep clearance as it can't enter the same signalling block anyway.

You seem to be confused about the effects of a stopping DART and a non stop IC train travelling along the same track. A number of DARTS will be ahead of the IC service. There is no overtaking points between Connolly and Bray. If a stopping DART departs 5 mins ahead of the IC service and takes 45mins to complete the journey and as we know the IC service can't overtake and must remain at least 1 signalling block behind the DART how can the IC service possibly complete the journey quicker than the DART ahead of it??? The time saved by not stopping is ineffective once it catches up with the stopping DART. Even the following DART behind the IC train will arrive in Connolly within 3 - 5mins of the IC train arriving.

I said "slower" not "quicker".

Bray Head

It is not clear how many of the 500 passengers from south of Greystones are continuing past Bray. Let's be conservative and say 450.


Of this 450 I would guess that about 50 would have a final destination on the DART line not served by the Rosslare service.


These people are changing onto the DART network anyway.



So for 20% of users a change at Bray is either irrelevant or something they're doing already.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

I said "slower" not "quicker".

Yeah the suggested transfer you say will be slower meaning you think the current direct train is quicker in comparison. Same thing really.

Anyway as I stated it won't be slower as explained to you. An IC train doesn't complete the journey any quicker than a DART.