Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah the suggested transfer you say will be slower meaning you think the current direct train is quicker in comparison. Same thing really.

Anyway as I stated it won't be slower as explained to you. An IC train doesn't complete the journey any quicker than a DART.

I can predict that the connecting train will not be waiting a lot of the time and ,even if it is, won't be ready to depart as soon as the existing train is now. There would need to be a several minutes built into the timetable to allow the passengers to transfer from one train to the other in any case. It will definitely make the journey longer for through passengers and lead to a drop in passenger numbers. It seems to me that people are promoting enforcing this change in order to enhance their own service to the detriment of others.

Bray Head

Isambard wrote: »

 It will definitely make the journey longer for through passengers and lead to a drop in passenger numbers.

If you are already taking the train - instead of the bus or driving - you are probably not terribly time sensitive. Three extra minutes on a journey that long would not appreciably impact usage.

Isambard

Bray Head wrote: »

If you are already taking the train - instead of the bus or driving - you are probably not terribly time sensitive. Three extra minutes on a journey that long would not appreciably impact usage.

where'd the three minutes come from? I'd say it could easily be 15 or more. Plus mobility impaired passengers won't appreciate the change.

LeinsterDub

Isambard wrote: »

where'd the three minutes come from? I'd say it could easily be 15 or more. Plus mobility impaired passengers won't appreciate the change.

Crocodile tears for the mobility impaired and elderly! It's like the Godwin of public transport discussions

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

I can predict that the connecting train will not be waiting a lot of the time and ,even if it is, won't be ready to depart as soon as the existing train is now. There would need to be a several minutes built into the timetable to allow the passengers to transfer from one train to the other in any case. It will definitely make the journey longer for through passengers and lead to a drop in passenger numbers. It seems to me that people are promoting enforcing this change in order to enhance their own service to the detriment of others.

It just means you will be stuck behind the DART ahead of you 3 or 4 mins sooner.

You still won't get into Dublin any quicker. There will also be more DARTS ahead of you when the 10min frequency comes into effect.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

where'd the three minutes come from? I'd say it could easily be 15 or more. Plus mobility impaired passengers won't appreciate the change.

Where are you getting 15 mins from. Please explain how in earth it will take 15mins for passengers to walk 5 - 10 meters from one train to another. This would mean they'd somehow manage to miss 2 train departures.

Mobility impaired passengers can continue to use any remaining direct trains if it's such a difficulty although if they managed to get on the train in the first place I don't see why it should be an issue.

end of the road

Bray Head wrote: »

It is not clear how many of the 500 passengers from south of Greystones are continuing past Bray. Let's be conservative and say 450.


Of this 450 I would guess that about 50 would have a final destination on the DART line not served by the Rosslare service.


These people are changing onto the DART network anyway.



So for 20% of users a change at Bray is either irrelevant or something they're doing already.

irrelevant to those of us going to dublin. and anyway, i would be surprised if it's anywhere near 20% going to stations on the dart line.

Bray Head wrote: »

If you are already taking the train - instead of the bus or driving - you are probably not terribly time sensitive. Three extra minutes on a journey that long would not appreciably impact usage.

3 extra minutes won't be the reality on the ground. it will probably be 15 or more if we are going to just pluck times out of the air as the change supporters seem to be doing. either way the journey will be longer and it will be a waste of people's time. and actually yes many using the railway will be time sensitive to a degree.

end of the road

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yes because in this conversation the DART is the money pit.

in terms of a 10 minute outside peak times, it might be exactly that yes . but we won't know until it actually happens.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Crocodile tears for the mobility impaired and elderly! It's like the Godwin of public transport discussions

nope, they are users of the service just like anyone else. so insuring the services meet their needs given in some cases it's their only option, is the right and decent thing to do.

Isambard wrote: »

I can predict that the connecting train will not be waiting a lot of the time and ,even if it is, won't be ready to depart as soon as the existing train is now. There would need to be a several minutes built into the timetable to allow the passengers to transfer from one train to the other in any case. It will definitely make the journey longer for through passengers and lead to a drop in passenger numbers. It seems to me that people are promoting enforcing this change in order to enhance their own service to the detriment of others.

indeed that is the agenda.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

irrelevant to those of us going to dublin. and anyway, i would be surprised if it's anywhere near 20% going to stations on the dart line.



3 extra minutes won't be the reality on the ground. it will probably be 15 or more if we are going to just pluck times out of the air as the change supporters seem to be doing. either way the journey will be longer and it will be a waste of people's time. and actually yes many using the railway will be time sensitive to a degree.

Well a large number of passengers board Southbound trains in Bray and a large number disembark from Northbound trains at Bray.

Nobody is plucking figures out of the sky but 15mins seems to be a bit wild. Seen as Dart will every 10 mins were are you getting 15mins from.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

i

nope, they are users of the service just like anyone else. so insuring the services meet their needs given in some cases it's their only option, is the right and decent thing to do.

Able to make there ,wait at the station , able to get on the train , as they slowly approach Bray they become more and more fail and decrepit, but just before death kicks in the train pulls out of Bray and they recover.

IE 222

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Able to make there wait to the station , able to get on the train , as they slowly approach Bray they become more and more fail and decrepit, but just before death kicks in the train pulls out of Bray and they recover.

It wasn't on his mind before the other fella mention it.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

in terms of a 10 minute outside peak times, it might be exactly that yes . but we won't know until it actually happens.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/.../2016_Rail_Review_Consultation.docx

I can't see the subvention growing by 20 - 30 times

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

Well a large number of passengers board Southbound trains in Bray and a large number disembark from Northbound trains at Bray.

Nobody is plucking figures out of the sky but 15mins seems to be a bit wild. Seen as Dart will every 10 mins were are you getting 15mins from.

can your really see a train every 10 minutes?

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

can your really see a train every 10 minutes?

Yeah, is there a reason I shouldn't.

andrewfaulk

A lot of people seem to have hang ups around the status of the Rosslare line, and that it deserves a non-stop IC service because..

Lots of places have changes, Ballina/Manulla, Kerry Line/Mallow and Limerick/ Limerick JN all spring to mind.. I don’t think the Rosslare line is different to any of those, it just happens to be a Branch with an end on connection to the DART line at Greystones..

Some amount of time and brain power has gone into this thread to no major benefit, the NTA or IE won’t read it so it’s not going to influence policy.. if the people of the south west(and maybe other places) care so much about the Rosslare line why don’t they set up a community rail partnership or lobbying group to make a real difference

end of the road

andrewfaulk wrote: »

A lot of people seem to have hang ups around the status of the Rosslare line, and that it deserves a non-stop IC service because..

Lots of places have changes, Ballina/Manulla, Kerry Line/Mallow and Limerick/ Limerick JN all spring to mind.. I don’t think the Rosslare line is different to any of those, it just happens to be a Branch with an end on connection to the DART line at Greystones..

Some amount of time and brain power has gone into this thread to no major benefit, the NTA or IE won’t read it so it’s not going to influence policy.. if the people of the south west(and maybe other places) care so much about the Rosslare line why don’t they set up a community rail partnership or lobbying group to make a real difference

Ballina, Kerry Line and Limerick passengers change from actual branch line services to main line fast limited stop inter city services. this would not be the case with passengers from the wexford line which isn't a branch line, but a regional line. they would be forced to change to a slow, all stops service to continue the rest of their way into dublin. given there are more direct options availible, this would highly likely drive away numbers, compared to the other situations you mention which have always been common practices for actual branch line services.

andrewfaulk

end of the road wrote: »

Ballina, Kerry Line and Limerick passengers change from actual branch line services to main line fast limited stop inter city services. this would not be the case with passengers from the wexford line which isn't a branch line, but a regional line. they would be forced to change to a slow, all stops service to continue the rest of their way into dublin. given there are more direct options availible, this would highly likely drive away numbers, compared to the other situations you mention which have always been common practices for actual branch line services.

Again, I don’t want to get into the nitty gritty of what it is and isn’t and the merits or otherwise of the transfer..there’s been 300plus posts in a week and a half on that..

What I’m saying is that if there is as much demand and interest in the line as this thread would suggest, would someone not look to take it offline and make something Actually happen.. Like set up a public meeting, or get some local politicians interested in the topic.. there is likely an election coming down the line!

Del.Monte

Travelled down to Enniscorthy on the 13.36 ex.Connolly today - the ICR departed empty from Platform.1. before arriving at Platform.5. with about 4 minutes left to departure. Not particularly clean inside but nothing new there.

On Platform.5. the waiting Rosslare passengers had to contend with hordes of students and other that disembarked from a preceding DART which once again brings me back to this - why can't Rosslare bound passengers embark on Platform.1. as they did back in the 1970/80s? They could even avail of the the 'luxurious' Enterprise waiting area - why are Rosslare bound passengers the only inter-city passengers forced to fight it out with suburban passengers - even before the train has left the station?

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

Travelled down to Enniscorthy on the 13.36 ex.Connolly today - the ICR departed empty from Platform.1. before arriving at Platform.5. with about 4 minutes left to departure. Not particularly clean inside but nothing new there.

On Platform.5. the waiting Rosslare passengers had to contend with hordes of students and other that disembarked from a preceding DART which once again brings me back to this - why can't Rosslare bound passengers embark on Platform.1. as they did back in the 1970/80s? They could even avail of the the 'luxurious' Enterprise waiting area - why are Rosslare bound passengers the only inter-city passengers forced to fight it out with suburban passengers - even before the train has left the station?

never knew rosslare trains departed from platform 1 in the past. i presume they reversed out of 1 and then crossed over to 5 and on their way?

Del.Monte

end of the road wrote: »

never knew rosslare trains departed from platform 1 in the past. i presume they reversed out of 1 and then crossed over to 5 and on their way?

Don't know if they all did but certainly the evening down always left from No.1. and then to Platform.5 to pick up those who didn't have 'inside' knowledge. That was back in loco hauled days and should be even easier these days.

IE 222

Is the service not slow and long enough already without adding a reversal and detour around Connolly

Del.Monte

IE 222 wrote: »

Is the service not slow and long enough already without adding a reversal and detour around Connolly

How is it slowing down the service by continuing to do what I observed yesterday - the train still left Platform.5. on schedule? This is what happened in the past - loco hauled - and never delayed things. It's damn sight quicker for the driver of an ICR to switch ends than have to detach loco(s) from one end before proceeding.

IE 222

Del.Monte wrote: »

How is it slowing down the service by continuing to do what I observed yesterday - the train still left Platform.5. on schedule? This is what happened in the past - loco hauled - and never delayed things. It's damn sight quicker for the driver of an ICR to switch ends than have to detach loco(s) from one end before proceeding.

Here is some of your original comment,

"why can't Rosslare bound passengers embark on Platform.1. as they did back in the 1970/80s? They could even avail of the the 'luxurious' Enterprise waiting area - why are Rosslare bound passengers the only inter-city passengers forced to fight it out with suburban passengers - even before the train has left the station?"

I don't know how you expect this not to delay or add more time onto the current schedule. I'd imagine the loco done a reversal out.

Del.Monte

IE 222 wrote: »

Here is some of your original comment,

"why can't Rosslare bound passengers embark on Platform.1. as they did back in the 1970/80s? They could even avail of the the 'luxurious' Enterprise waiting area - why are Rosslare bound passengers the only inter-city passengers forced to fight it out with suburban passengers - even before the train has left the station?"

I don't know how you expect this not to delay or add more time onto the current schedule. I'd imagine the loco done a reversal out.

Can you not understand plain Engish? Yesterday, as in the past the Rosslare train left from Platform.1. (empty) and still arrived at Platform.2. in time to depart on schedule.

The loco did not reverse out in the past as it's against operating rules to propel a passenger train and thus there was a loco(s) to haul it out - not that that has anything to do with operating today.

IE 222

Del.Monte wrote: »

Can you not understand plain Engish? Yesterday, as in the past the Rosslare train left from Platform.1. (empty) and still arrived at Platform.2. in time to depart on schedule.

The loco did not reverse out in the past as it's against operating rules to propel a passenger train and thus there was a loco(s) to haul it out - not that that has anything to do with operating today.

I most certainly can but for the service to operate from platform 1 with passengers onboard so you can use the enterprise facilities would require the train to be scheduled/timetabled from platform 1. If IE decide to do a second stop at platform 5 as well that would become the second stop. The train departing platform 1 would require a departure time leading too an increase in journey time.

Loco hauled passengers trains have reversed before in scheduled service with passengers onboard. This was part of the Limerick - Waterford service at Limerick Jct.

Quackster

IE 222 wrote: »

Loco hauled passengers trains have reversed before in scheduled service with passengers onboard. This was part of the Limerick - Waterford service at Limerick Jct.

Yep, and in/out of Killarney.

Del.Monte

Apologies re.propelling trains - memory of the rulebook and other locations has faded but regardless what I have suggested re: Rosslare trains departing from Platform.1. rather than the present shambles would/should have zero effect on timings.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

Loco hauled passengers trains have reversed before in scheduled service with passengers onboard. This was part of the Limerick - Waterford service at Limerick Jct.

These reversals at Lk JN + Killarney and indeed at Carlisle Pier, were performed when a guard was part of a train crew.
The guard watched from an open window at the rear of the train and waved a green flag continously. If the guard stopped waving, the driver would immediately stop the train.

Today, guards and door droplight windows are both a thing of the past. That is why on trains reversing out of Lk Jn before heading to Waterford, the driver has to change cabs, with consequently a three minute stop at Keane's Points.

91wx763

The permitted propelling locations for passenger trains were (if I remember correctly) Cork to go north from the south bays, Waterford to go east from the west bays, Killarney and Limerick junction (obviously) and Athy (!) for reasons which I do not know. I don't remember Connolly being listed. If Judgement Day was around he probably has them in a book somewhere

Lord Glentoran

andrewfaulk wrote: »

A lot of people seem to have hang ups around the status of the Rosslare line, and that it deserves a non-stop IC service because..

Lots of places have changes, Ballina/Manulla, Kerry Line/Mallow and Limerick/ Limerick JN all spring to mind.. I don’t think the Rosslare line is different to any of those, it just happens to be a Branch with an end on connection to the DART line at Greystones..

Some amount of time and brain power has gone into this thread to no major benefit, the NTA or IE won’t read it so it’s not going to influence policy.. if the people of the south west(and maybe other places) care so much about the Rosslare line why don’t they set up a community rail partnership or lobbying group to make a real difference

The attempt at setting up a CRP did absolutely nothing for the Rosslare - Waterford section, so why should it help Rosslare - Dublin? In my view, based on watching the shenanigans over the last forty years, big chunks of Official Ireland, including decision makers in Government and state agencies, don’t want the railways to have a long term future. So, why should Rosslare be any different? Give the proles buses. That’s good enough.