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Changes in the GAA - super thread
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Farawayhome wrote: »Dublin received 20 million from between 2005 and now. Did Cork and Antrim receive 10 million? Nowhere near. If you want to talk about facilites and stadiums, then the inbalance gets worse in favour of Dublin!
They also had an 82,000 stadium handed to them and also a training centre in Abbotstown which is supposed to be for all of Leinster but which of course is centred in Dublin.0 -
Sounds like we need to scrap all County Boards except the DCB, and put them in charge of everything. They seem to be the only people capable of effecting change within the GAA.
I'm good with this idea, we could trial it in Leinster first.
That's utter nonsense.
Dublin County Board received 15 million more in 10 years than their nearest rival.
They also receive at least 1 million a year from the shirt sponsor.
They receive 1 million a year from a sports grant from the government.
They don't have a stadium loan to pay back after getting a free stadium
In all aspects, Dublin have multiple financial benefits over every other county.
Saying other counties need to get their house in order to compete with Dublin is like saying Stockport County should get their house in order to compete with Manchester City or PSG.
Its the type of nonsense regularly trotted out by some Dublin supporters.
Dublin were a basket case in GAA circles until the tens of millions in funds started going in. Reluctantly I use financial doping but its pretty accurate.0 -
ToBeFrank123 wrote: »Dublin supporters like you will always find a reason not to redistribute funds.
They'd rather see counties like Offaly sink into oblivion than help them out.
I'm convinced now that the GAA are Dublin supporters in the main, if here is anything to go by and as such are determined to keep up the status quo of 270 euro per registered player in Dublin while most other counties make do with around 20 or 25.
Lads, the football AI is finished, ruined by the GAA and Dublin. Its become the equivalent of WWF, rigged and preordained. A once worthwhile competition rendered utterly meaningless though financial rigging in favour of one county.
The Leinster final attendance is predicted to be about 40,000 this year. It was 62,000 the last time Meath were involved. The GAA really have been successful in killing the goose that laid the golden egg. They haven't the skills to run a corner shop let alone administer our national sport.
I made no argument against redistribution of funds. You saw what you wanted.0 -
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I made no argument against redistribution of funds. You saw what you wanted.
Of course you made an argument against it. You said you were against it until you knew how it was spent. You're against it, just be honest about it and stop with the nonsense of being in favour and against something at the same time.0 -
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ToBeFrank123 wrote: »Of course you made an argument against it. You said you were against it until you knew how it was spent. You're against it, just be honest about it and stop with the nonsense of being in favour and against something at the same time.
Again I didn’t say that, I said just splitting the money was a bad idea it should be targeted. I stand by that.0 -
When you have millions to play around with such as the likes of PSG, Man City and Dublin have, you can afford to make a lot of mistakes and still buy success.
Lesser counties and teams make the same mistakes and they get relegated.
This is the difference, a difference not fully understood by Dublin supporters on here, who attribute Dublin's success purely to the skill of their administrators.
We all know in sport, administrators and managers are only as good as the funds available.0 -
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The 2016 figures that I linked to earlier show that this is actually happening now.
Dublin only got 14% of the funding for 20% of the population.
If the money is being wasted by those counties e.g. white elephant training centres , nothing that you or I can do about it.
Dublin get something like 50% of the GDF funding despite having about 10% of registered players. This is a far more relevant statistic.
If anyone is wasting money its Dublin. 15 times the GDF funding of most other counties.0 -
ToBeFrank123 wrote: »And again.
Zero interest in a level playing field or even the remotest possibility of anything close from a Dublin supporter. What a surprise!
Talk of amalgamating counties is the biggest non runner I have heard. It would destroy the entire fabric of the football AI and kill the competition entirely. No-one would support Sligo-Leitrim, or Carlow-Laois, no-one. And they still wouldn't come close to competing with a Dublin who sucks up massive GDF funds.
Rather than the fair solution of redistributing funds, some Dublin supporters would rather ruin the competition entirely.
Amalgamating counties is not as challenging to those counties' supporters as splitting is to Dublin's. Splitting Dublin, according to your theory, will lead to less success for Dublin. Amalgamations will lead to more success for smaller counties.
I don't know how many times this has to be repeated (and the 2016 figures explained to you) but the GDF funding is for juvenile participation and Dublin are now underfunded population wise. It is not for the betterment of the senior football team.
As for Sligo-Leitrim, they would probably give Roscommon a better game in Connacht than either Galway or Mayo did this year. Those who resist amalgamations and focus only on splitting Dublin are the ones who have zero interest in a level playing field and are only engaged in special interest pleading just like Ewan McKenna and his one-man crusade to get Kildare a Leinster championship this century.0 -
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ToBeFrank123 wrote: »Yes, it should be targeted at weaker counties and away from successful counties like Dublin. So we're agreed.
And it should start asap.
We don’t agree at all it should not be targeted at weaker counties it should be targeted where it can do the most good. If most of that is at weaker counties that’s fine but it needs to be done properly with long term plans and attainable goals in place. There are issues with things like county boards that pretty much ignore one code, should KK get any money for football at all or should they get less for hurling as a punishment for only driving one sport, I honestly don’t know the right answer to that.0 -
ToBeFrank123 wrote: »Dublin get something like 50% of the GDF funding despite having about 10% of registered players. This is a far more relevant statistic.
If anyone is wasting money its Dublin. 15 times the GDF funding of most other counties.
You must have missed this post which linked to the facts.
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534
"In 2016, Dublin received €1.46 million - approximately 14% - of the total figure of €10.14 million that the GAA distributed to fund games development in counties."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population
Dublin has 20.5% of the population on this island.
It is arguable therefore, on the basis of the 2016 figures, that Dublin children are being treated less favourably by the GAA than the children of other counties. This ties in with what I have repeatedly said was the tailing off of funding to Dublin over the last few years.
In 2016, Dublin got 14% of the funding, not 50%, despite having over 20% of the population on the island.
The purpose of the funding is Games Development. That means bringing the games to new areas, new population centres, and new people. The nature of that funding therefore means that it should be based on population and need, not registered players.
For example, a county with a falling population would not need development funding. On the other hand, a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding. Ditto a costed well-thought out plan to develop football in Limerick City would be deserving.
Funding per registered player is meaningless in this context.0 -
ToBeFrank123 wrote: »When you have millions to play around with such as the likes of PSG, Man City and Dublin have, you can afford to make a lot of mistakes and still buy success.
Lesser counties and teams make the same mistakes and they get relegated.
This is the difference, a difference not fully understood by Dublin supporters on here, who attribute Dublin's success purely to the skill of their administrators.
We all know in sport, administrators and managers are only as good as the funds available.
Dublin's success is down to having one of the greatest players (and definitely the greatest goalkeeper) to play the game - Stephen Cluxton, one of the best managers - Jim Gavin, and a whole cast of supporting great players such as Cooper, O'Sullivan, McCarthy, McCaffrey, McAuley, etc.0 -
You must have missed this post which linked to the facts.
In 2016, Dublin got 14% of the funding, not 50%, despite having over 20% of the population on the island.
The purpose of the funding is Games Development. That means bringing the games to new areas, new population centres, and new people. The nature of that funding therefore means that it should be based on population and need, not registered players.
For example, a county with a falling population would not need development funding. On the other hand, a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding. Ditto a costed well-thought out plan to develop football in Limerick City would be deserving.
Funding per registered player is meaningless in this context.
My point is the use of funds, penalising successful counties, helping unsuccessful counties has to be the model. Its idiotic to continually give more funds to successful counties because it just ruins all semblance of competition, not that the average Dublin supporter is interested in that.
Your point is that funds follow populations. If this is so, then Dublin will become an even bigger monster, and if that happens, the AI ceases to exist as anything other than a WWF type competition, not to be taken seriously.
The options then are split Dublin which is opposed by 90% of Dubs at a guess and also the GAA. Amalgamate smaller counties, a complete non runner. A financial fair play element which also includes GDF spending and penalising counties whose gross spend including gdf goes over a certain amount. Or redistributing GDF and coaches away from Dublin to underperforming counties in Leinster like Louth, Offaly, Wicklow and so on. I'd favour the latter as the only credible solution to the mess the GAA is currently in.
Any other option means the continuing decline of the AI to a laughing stock.0 -
Dublin's success is down to having one of the greatest players (and definitely the greatest goalkeeper) to play the game - Stephen Cluxton, one of the best managers - Jim Gavin, and a whole cast of supporting great players such as Cooper, O'Sullivan, McCarthy, McCaffrey, McAuley, etc.
And nothing to do with huge funds behind the scenes.
Pull the other one.
We know what Dublin success is down to.
They were a basket case up to about 2005 when coincidently millions started going in. It has ensured they are able to produce unlimited numbers of well trained and conditioned players, coached at the highest level, while other counties straggle to get by.0 -
Amalgamating counties is not as challenging to those counties' supporters as splitting is to Dublin's. Splitting Dublin, according to your theory, will lead to less success for Dublin. Amalgamations will lead to more success for smaller counties.
I don't know how many times this has to be repeated (and the 2016 figures explained to you) but the GDF funding is for juvenile participation and Dublin are now underfunded population wise. It is not for the betterment of the senior football team.
As for Sligo-Leitrim, they would probably give Roscommon a better game in Connacht than either Galway or Mayo did this year. Those who resist amalgamations and focus only on splitting Dublin are the ones who have zero interest in a level playing field and are only engaged in special interest pleading just like Ewan McKenna and his one-man crusade to get Kildare a Leinster championship this century.
You'd have to amalgamate about 8 counties in Leinster for them to have a chance population wise and funds wise to compete with Dublin.
As we have seen from the Railway Cup, amalgamations don't work. They aren't supported and no-one is interested. People want to play for and support their county, not for Leinster Tigers or Eastern Gaels.
You know its a non runner by the way and is not a credible proposal.0 -
ToBeFrank123 wrote: »My point is the use of funds, penalising successful counties, helping unsuccessful counties has to be the model. Its idiotic to continually give more funds to successful counties because it just ruins all semblance of competition, not that the average Dublin supporter is interested in that.
Your point is that funds follow populations. If this is so, then Dublin will become an even bigger monster, and if that happens, the AI ceases to exist as anything other than a WWF type competition, not to be taken seriously.
The options then are split Dublin which is opposed by 90% of Dubs at a guess and also the GAA. Amalgamate smaller counties, a complete non runner. A financial fair play element which also includes GDF spending and penalising counties whose gross spend including gdf goes over a certain amount. Or redistributing GDF and coaches away from Dublin to underperforming counties in Leinster like Louth, Offaly, Wicklow and so on. I'd favour the latter as the only credible solution to the mess the GAA is currently in.
Any other option means the continuing decline of the AI to a laughing stock.
Once again, it all comes down to whether you see the success of the GAA being measured by who wins All-Irelands, or whether you see the success of the GAA being measured by juvenile participation rates, the strength of local communities etc.
Your criteria for funding is to help counties like Mayo and Tyrone win All-Irelands, mine is to ensure that the GAA is healthy at club and grassroots level with every kid in the country getting a chance to play the game. In your scenario, you distribute money based on success of the senior county game, in mine you distribute money where there are credible plans to develop the game at grassroots and juvenile level. We have two different philosophical approaches to funding and we will not agree.
If you want to fix the competitiveness of the All-Ireland, you stop handing the most successful county - Kerry - an effective bye into the Super 8s by restructuring the provincial championships, and you create more successful counties through both amalgamations and splits and by the way, Dublin aren't the only candidate to be split.0 -
Not going to bother quoting anyone on this but personally I think both spilts and amalgamations are a bad idea. Now if a county board or two decided it was best for themselves I’d have no real issue but talk of it is to my mind a waste as I don’t see either ever happening.
There is a complete overhaul of the season and the competitions needed though. The league needs bigger billing and without over thinking details I’d rather a better league followed by a championship with straight knock out. Championship draws based on league position.0 -
My 2 cents, Dublin always had the numerical advantages but not the organisation. Once they got the top guys in at County Board level and put the structures in then the advantages become tenfold as befits a County with one quarter of the country’s population in a 32 County scenario.
A bit like Man City, throw the money at the best managers and the success will follow.
Great for the Accountants but not for the rest. Being from Westmeath our only hope is a league division 2 or 3 title, doubtful if a second tier championship win will ever come close to our likely only ever provincial title in 2004.
The fact that Roscommon’s reward for winning their provincial title see them having to play 2 away games in the super 8’s shows that Croke Park once again favours money over fairness.
I predict Dublin to win 9 of the next 10 All-Ireland’s if the current conditions are allowed to continue.
It’s probably too late to change things as it stands and people will just switch over to other sports, it’s already happening in Leinster.0 -
why does the league have to be completed before the championship? Interlink them all, provincial cup competitions/ all ireland competitions in between league games. and allow clubs game times in this period as well.Not going to bother quoting anyone on this but personally I think both spilts and amalgamations are a bad idea. Now if a county board or two decided it was best for themselves I’d have no real issue but talk of it is to my mind a waste as I don’t see either ever happening.
There is a complete overhaul of the season and the competitions needed though. The league needs bigger billing and without over thinking details I’d rather a better league followed by a championship with straight knock out. Championship draws based on league position.0 -
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The money that Dublin received would have transformed any other county also. We can see from Dublin hurling, going from minnows to joining the top table. If this money was given to Kerry, they would be contenders in the hurling and unstoppable in football. You can pick any county and their level would rise similarly. It's just a fact that huge finance is at the back of all transformations, you can look at all sport and see that.
The GAA realise now that they need to act as their investment is not bringing in a return. Let's be fair, Dublin attendances have been shockingly bad. So what are they doing about it? They've decided to invest in Meath and Kildare in the hope that they'll catch up a bit. First of all, Dublin have a 14 year head start but most importantly, what about all the other counties? They are continuing with their strategy of looking short term. They have learned nothing.
Or maybe this is what they want. This is their vision now. They want to boost a certain number of teams to form an elite championship and the rest can rot in the b and c championships. Let's be honest, we know certain counties would be in favour of this and they couldn't give a sh1t about the rest. Seriously, if we don't do something soon this will all be gone. The breakaway will happen and we'll be left with nothing.
We have to get onto our county boards, we have to get our voices heard on this.0 -
ToBeFrank123 wrote: »Dublin get something like 50% of the GDF funding despite having about 10% of registered players. This is a far more relevant statistic.
If anyone is wasting money its Dublin. 15 times the GDF funding of most other counties.
That's just not true! As you well know.
Dublin does have disproportionate population for an island this size.
So all funding whether it is GAA, roads, HSE, whatever, is going to reflect that.
As a Dub, I don't think the vast swelling of Dublin is a good idea, for Dubs or the rest of the country. And if the state's plans in Project 2040 are pursued then we are heading for epic social disaster,
Wander around the Paris suburbs some time, and you will realise that kids playing hurling is the fkn least of what you need to be worried about.0 -
That's just not true! As you well know.
Dublin does have disproportionate population for an island this size.
So all funding whether it is GAA, roads, HSE, whatever, is going to reflect that.
As a Dub, I don't think the vast swelling of Dublin is a good idea, for Dubs or the rest of the country. And if the state's plans in Project 2040 are pursued then we are heading for epic social disaster,
Wander around the Paris suburbs some time, and you will realise that kids playing hurling is the fkn least of what you need to be worried about.
We've been over this. The population of Cork County is 550,000. The population of Dublin County is 1.35 million, or 2.5 times the population of Cork.
It follows that Dublin should get 2.5 times the GDF in total that Cork get, in the interests of fairness. Between 2007-2017, Dublin received 13 times the GDF of Cork.
When you look at per registered players, its even worse. Despite having only 20% more registered players 39000 v 34000, Dublin received 1300% more in GDF spend, 16.5 million vs 1.5 million.
The suggestion from GAA HQ or rather from Dublin GAA and their friend Bertie Ahern that Dublin needed a vast increase in funds to hold off other sports is nonsense. Most counties have the same issue, particularly counties like Cork where rugby, soccer, athletics, basketball, etc are strong. Dublin is not the exception when it comes to competition from other sports.0 -
You said Dublin gets 50% of GDF.
It doesn't.
You just make stuff up.0 -
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You said Dublin gets 50% of GDF.
It doesn't.
You just make stuff up.
Lot of rubbish made up to be honest to suit people’s arguments. Pity we’ll never hear it at Congress as a lot prefer to soapbox on here than take action.
I have to say one of the major successes is the Celtic Challenge - a lot more young lads playing for counties - first time every county is participating in. Seems to be pretty under them the radar of most GAA fans. Really like the concepts they have pulled from Australian Rules - and to get a big sponsor onboard as well as live streaming the finals is excellent and unnoticed work. 20%of Leitrims Lory Meagher panel came through that competition.0 -
You said Dublin gets 50% of GDF.
It doesn't.
You just make stuff up.
Its here.
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534
Dublin received 16.6 over 10 years.
As for the rest combined, the totals are in McGoldrick's tweet. It works out at a total of approximately 18 million. So slightly more than Dublin's.
But that doesn't factor in a multitude of other income resources Dublin have over and above the other counties, such as record shirt sponsorship deals.
The comments from Duffy on the state of Dublin makes him sound like the PRO for Dublin football.Duffy wrote in his GAA Ard Stiúrthóir report:
"In achieving their five All-Ireland titles in the past seven years, the margin of victory was a single point in four finals (one after a replay) and a three-point victory over Kerry in 2015.
"This hardly constitutes evidence of a county stream-rolling over all opposition, or proof of the need to divide a county because it is vastly superior to the rest and must be broken up into two or three divisions for inter-competition.
"The history of our games, and of sport in general, tells us that Dublin won't win forever. Apart from that, there are a couple of observations to be made.
"First, the main reason for Dublin's current success is that they have an outstanding group of players and an exceptional team management.
"One of the reasons why Dublin footballers generate support is that they give Dubliners a unique opportunity to celebrate their proud Dublin identity.
"While it may well be a mild and humorous northside/southside divide in Dublin, this geographical affiliation comes nowhere near matching the passionate identification of all Dubliners with their team.
"One is led to wonder if the 'divide Dublin' proponents have given any thought to what the GAA would lose if Dublin were to be split. Have they given any thought to what Dubliners would lose?
"And is the sight of Dublin supporters on Hill 16 not one of the great spectacles in Irish sport? And are we not all looking forward to seeing Dublin supporters in their thousands heading out to Dublin city to follow their team, which the championship format from 2018 will allow?
"So, neither on competitive grounds, nor on account of the unfairness of depriving Dubliners of the pleasure of expressing their local historical identity through the GAA (as every other GAA supporter is allowed to do) should we countenance the splitting up of Dublin.
"There is all to lose in doing so, and nothing to gain."
Someone pass me a bucket.0 -
That's just not true! As you well know.
Dublin does have disproportionate population for an island this size.
So all funding whether it is GAA, roads, HSE, whatever, is going to reflect that.
As a Dub, I don't think the vast swelling of Dublin is a good idea, for Dubs or the rest of the country. And if the state's plans in Project 2040 are pursued then we are heading for epic social disaster,
Wander around the Paris suburbs some time, and you will realise that kids playing hurling is the fkn least of what you need to be worried about.
Dublin received funds way out of proportion with population size. If you look at the link ToBeFrank provided for you, you will see that every other county got between 500,000 and 1.1 million throughout the decade they covered (the split between Dublin and the rest was actually more in 2006 and 2005). The overwhelming amount of counties got between 500,000 and 800,000. Basically, every county was fairly equal in terms of funding, Dublin were galaxies out in front.
You do make a good point about population. With the growth predictions for Dublin, it's not logical to continue as is. Change on the way but the social change is something we all need to look at. Not for this thread though.0 -
Farawayhome wrote: »The money that Dublin received would have transformed any other county also. We can see from Dublin hurling, going from minnows to joining the top table. If this money was given to Kerry, they would be contenders in the hurling and unstoppable in football. You can pick any county and their level would rise similarly. It's just a fact that huge finance is at the back of all transformations, you can look at all sport and see that.
The GAA realise now that they need to act as their investment is not bringing in a return. Let's be fair, Dublin attendances have been shockingly bad. So what are they doing about it? They've decided to invest in Meath and Kildare in the hope that they'll catch up a bit. First of all, Dublin have a 14 year head start but most importantly, what about all the other counties? They are continuing with their strategy of looking short term. They have learned nothing.
Or maybe this is what they want. This is their vision now. They want to boost a certain number of teams to form an elite championship and the rest can rot in the b and c championships. Let's be honest, we know certain counties would be in favour of this and they couldn't give a sh1t about the rest. Seriously, if we don't do something soon this will all be gone. The breakaway will happen and we'll be left with nothing.
We have to get onto our county boards, we have to get our voices heard on this.
Meath and Kildare are growing counties with GAA blackspots where the game has failed to establish itself at grassroot level in growing population centres. This is the same problem that the Dublin funding was designed to address.
It is not about investing in Meath and Kildare to see will they catch up a bit, it is about grassroot investment to spread the game to new areas.0 -
Farawayhome wrote: »Dublin received funds way out of proportion with population size. If you look at the link ToBeFrank provided for you, you will see that every other county got between 500,000 and 1.1 million throughout the decade they covered (the split between Dublin and the rest was actually more in 2006 and 2005). The overwhelming amount of counties got between 500,000 and 800,000. Basically, every county was fairly equal in terms of funding, Dublin were galaxies out in front.
You do make a good point about population. With the growth predictions for Dublin, it's not logical to continue as is. Change on the way but the social change is something we all need to look at. Not for this thread though.
The figures have changed in recent years, as the links that have been provided make clear.
Dublin received 14% of the funding for 20% of the population in 2016, for example.0 -
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As for registered players, I don't have time to add up the numbers, but it looks like there are about 380,000 registered players in Ireland.
Dublin have 39,000 registered players. So about 10% of the total.
https://www.balls.ie/gaa/gaa-investment-in-dublin-348120
Quoting total population is irrelevant. You don't use GDF to train old people FFS! Or people playing other sports.
GDF is used to fund training of registered players, nothing more. If you register with a club, you will be trained by the club. And over 10 years Dublin received slightly less than 50% of total GDF despite having only about 10% of registered players.0
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