Changes in the GAA - super thread

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

Meath and Kildare are growing counties with GAA blackspots where the game has failed to establish itself at grassroot level in growing population centres. This is the same problem that the Dublin funding was designed to address.

It is not about investing in Meath and Kildare to see will they catch up a bit, it is about grassroot investment to spread the game to new areas.

It is very much about investing in Kildare and Meath so they catch up. Look what the money has done for Dublin, it's a game changer.

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

The figures have changed in recent years, as the links that have been provided make clear.

Dublin received 14% of the funding for 20% of the population in 2016, for example.

You can't ignore the huge chasm in funding for over a decade. As I said, every other county was fairly equal. Dublin were the odd ones out.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Meath and Kildare are growing counties with GAA blackspots where the game has failed to establish itself at grassroot level in growing population centres. This is the same problem that the Dublin funding was designed to address.

It is not about investing in Meath and Kildare to see will they catch up a bit, it is about grassroot investment to spread the game to new areas.

There's a catch 22 with that. Meath and Kildare are struggling to spread the game because of the monster that is Dublin next door. Kids are rightly abandoning GAA sports as they haven't a hope of ever winning silverware at IC senior level in the current circumstances. This is another byproduct of the skewed funding landscape. No amount of changing around the championship will alter this or the fact Meath and Kildare despite trying their utmost with limited funds can expect regular thrashings by Dublin.

Farawayhome

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As for registered players, I don't have time to add up the numbers, but it looks like there are about 380,000 registered players in Ireland.

Dublin have 39,000 registered players. So about 10% of the total.

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/gaa-investment-in-dublin-348120

Quoting total population is irrelevant. You don't use GDF to train old people FFS! Or people playing other sports.

GDF is used to fund training of registered players, nothing more. If you register with a club, you will be trained by the club. And over 10 years Dublin received slightly less than 50% of total GDF despite having only about 10% of registered players.

That really is crazy. It's impossible to justify that.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There's a catch 22 with that. Meath and Kildare are struggling to spread the game because of the monster that is Dublin next door. Kids are rightly abandoning GAA sports as they haven't a hope of ever winning silverware at IC senior level in the current circumstances. This is another byproduct of the skewed funding landscape. No amount of changing around the championship will alter this or the fact Meath and Kildare despite trying their utmost with limited funds can expect regular thrashings by Dublin.

7-year old kids don't decide what game to play depending on whether they have a chance of winning an All-Ireland, that is a ridiculous notion.

The Lost Sheep

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There's a catch 22 with that. Meath and Kildare are struggling to spread the game because of the monster that is Dublin next door. Kids are rightly abandoning GAA sports as they haven't a hope of ever winning silverware at IC senior level in the current circumstances. This is another byproduct of the skewed funding landscape. No amount of changing around the championship will alter this or the fact Meath and Kildare despite trying their utmost with limited funds can expect regular thrashings by Dublin.

is there anything available to prove Kildare and Meath are 1 struggling to spread the game and 2 struggling to do that because of Dublin.
Kids dont stop playing at younger ages especially because in the tiniest liklihood that they actually make the senior inter county squad that they wont win one of the 3/4 competitions they can ever play in. If that was case then a lot of counties would have disbanded years ago

salmocab

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There's a catch 22 with that. Meath and Kildare are struggling to spread the game because of the monster that is Dublin next door. Kids are rightly abandoning GAA sports as they haven't a hope of ever winning silverware at IC senior level in the current circumstances.

By that rationale no funding should be given to Leitrim as they will never win any silverware.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As for registered players, I don't have time to add up the numbers, but it looks like there are about 380,000 registered players in Ireland.

Dublin have 39,000 registered players. So about 10% of the total.

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/gaa-investment-in-dublin-348120

Quoting total population is irrelevant. You don't use GDF to train old people FFS! Or people playing other sports.

GDF is used to fund training of registered players, nothing more. If you register with a club, you will be trained by the club. And over 10 years Dublin received slightly less than 50% of total GDF despite having only about 10% of registered players.

Thank you for eloquently making the case for Game Development Funding. If Dublin have 20% of the population, but only 10% of the registered players, that means that they need funding to catch up on where they should be. The key is in the word development.

It is not the Game Coaching Fund, it is not the "help the Tyrones, Meaths and Mayos" fund, it is not even the "make everything equal" fund, it is the Game Development Fund.

It would be interesting to see accurate figures from the GAA totals as to whether there has been an increase in the number of registered players over the decade.

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

7-year old kids don't decide what game to play depending on whether they have a chance of winning an All-Ireland, that is a ridiculous notion.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

is there anything available to prove Kildare and Meath are 1 struggling to spread the game and 2 struggling to do that because of Dublin.
Kids dont stop playing at younger ages especially because in the tiniest liklihood that they actually make the senior inter county squad that they wont win one of the 3/4 competitions they can ever play in. If that was case then a lot of counties would have disbanded years ago

salmocab wrote: »

By that rationale no funding should be given to Leitrim as they will never win any silverware.

The parents decide where the kids go. The numbers of people following counties like Kildare and Meath have dropped hugely. They aren't interested in the Leinster championship as it became a farce. Who can blame them when you look at the funding numbers? And who could blame them if they decided their kids were better off playing rugby or other sports?

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

Thank you for eloquently making the case for Game Development Funding. If Dublin have 20% of the population, but only 10% of the registered players, that means that they need funding to catch up on where they should be. The key is in the word development.

It is not the Game Coaching Fund, it is not the "help the Tyrones, Meaths and Mayos" fund, it is not even the "make everything equal" fund, it is the Game Development Fund.

It would be interesting to see accurate figures from the GAA totals as to whether there has been an increase in the number of registered players over the decade.

If you're going down that road, then what have you got against giving Tyrone 50% more funding than everybody else? It's games development after all, the registered players don't come close to their population size.

blanch152

Farawayhome wrote: »

The parents decide where the kids go. The numbers of people following counties like Kildare and Meath have dropped hugely. They aren't interested in the Leinster championship as it became a farce. Who can blame them when you look at the numbers? And who could blame them if they decided their kids were better off playing rugby or other sports?

The vast majority of parents have little or no interest in the senior inter-county game, they are only interested in their Johnny and Mary having a good time. That is what the local club gives them.

I have spent an awful lot of time standing on sidelines over the years chatting to parents - half of them wouldn't even have a clue that Dublin were playing that weekend.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

7-year old kids don't decide what game to play depending on whether they have a chance of winning an All-Ireland, that is a ridiculous notion.

No, but teenagers do, up to and including minor level. When you lose them at that stage, you lose them for good, bar the odd exception.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen in Dublin too, it does. But Dublin can afford to lose a lot of talented youngsters, Meath cannot.

blanch152

Farawayhome wrote: »

If you're going down that road, then what have you got against giving Tyrone 50% more funding than everybody else? It's games development after all, the registered players don't come close to their population size.

I think I already addressed the Tyrone issue earlier when I said that "a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding." The development funding should be used to address low participation rates in a careful planned way focussed on the reasons for the low participation.

blanch152 wrote: »

In 2016, Dublin got 14% of the funding, not 50%, despite having over 20% of the population on the island.

The purpose of the funding is Games Development. That means bringing the games to new areas, new population centres, and new people. The nature of that funding therefore means that it should be based on population and need, not registered players.

For example, a county with a falling population would not need development funding. On the other hand, a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding. Ditto a costed well-thought out plan to develop football in Limerick City would be deserving.

Funding per registered player is meaningless in this context.

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

The vast majority of parents have little or no interest in the senior inter-county game, they are only interested in their Johnny and Mary having a good time. That is what the local club gives them.

I have spent an awful lot of time standing on sidelines over the years chatting to parents - half of them wouldn't even have a clue that Dublin were playing that weekend.

And a lot of parents do have a huge interest in inter county games.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

No, but teenagers do, up to and including minor level. When you lose them at that stage, you lose them for good, bar the odd exception.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen in Dublin too, it does. But Dublin can afford to lose a lot of talented youngsters, Meath cannot.

Again, at those ages, alcohol, going to college and sexual relations have a far bigger influence on sporting decisions than whether or not you are going to win an All-Ireland medal.

ToBeFrank123

Your use of population statistics is completely misleading.

The UK has 65 million of a population, yes might have only 10,000 registered GAA players.

If we are to follow your logic Blanch, the UK should be receiving tens of millions because of their huge population. In reality they should be receiving just enough to train the 10,000 registered players.

Unless of course you'd like to see Dublin's money used in the UK to grow the sport there? Of course you wouldn't.

You have no interest in the health of the sport, only an interest in the health of Dublin. Take off the blinkers for a while and look beyond Dublin. Objectivity is a great thing, you should try it sometime.

Farawayhome

blanch152 wrote: »

I think I already addressed the Tyrone issue earlier when I said that "a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding." The development funding should be used to address low participation rates in a careful planned way focussed on the reasons for the low participation.

Then why did you say this?

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not the Game Coaching Fund, it is not the "help the Tyrones, Meaths and Mayos" fund

So now you're saying the 6 counties should have been receiving far more funding. You'd have to say they'd need to be funded to a higher level than Dublin going on your population v playing numbers theory.
Basically, you're tieing yourself up in knots here.

salmocab

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Objectivity is a great thing.

Indeed it is

Jaden

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

GDF is used to fund training of registered players, nothing more.

In a thread rife with inaccuracy, this one is a contender for the "No, the run rises in the west" award for most inaccurate statement.

You cannot reason your way out of a place you didn't reason your way into.

Farawayhome

Jaden wrote: »

In a thread rife with inaccuracy, this one is a contender for the "No, the run rises in the west" award for most inaccurate statement.

You cannot reason your way out of a place you didn't reason your way into.

The fund is mostly spent on coaches. We've pointed out the huge disparity between Dublin and the rest in this area but we haven't really gone near what happens next.

The paid coaches do their jobs going into schools, taking sessions in clubs etc but also identifying elite talent. They send their reports on this to the various regional development officers or hurling development officers. From here they are put into the elite development squads. The elite squads are where the huge difference is made when it comes to the inter county scene in both codes at underage and senior.
They have the best facilities in the country available to them, the best strength and conditioning coaches and all the latest in sports science techniques designed to create athletes ready for the modern game. These squads are also well looked after in terms of gear and equipment. The whole system with the paid coaches firstly and then the elite squads have resulted in unprecedented levels of success for Dublin across the board.
In fairness, when you look at the figures, how could it not?

Dots1982

It’s sad how bitter and twisted these discussions and those outside Dublin have become. They can’t be blamed as when you have one county getting 18 million in development funds and the next getting 1.6 million (and that doesn’t even include the 5 million Bertie set aside for Dublin GAA) its natural people become exasperated.

The craziest thing is dublin GAA do almost no fundraising. They earned 60k in fundraising as shown in their accounts recently and that’s the average year on year. The likes of Mayo and Kerry break their balls to fund raise millions. It’s wrong ..all wrong but its the GAA’s fault.

The last decade could have been a great era if they pumped funds into other counties as Dublin took advantage of the population to produce better teams. Instead the GAA followed a completely wrong policy and pumped money into the most well resourced county and have idiotically killed their own biggest revenue source in the process...A complete cluster**** of epic proportions.

I don’t debate it much anymore as Boards.ie are dying to close down discussions of the Dublin problem.

The media carry a huge portion of the blame as well. This should have been getting discussed on the The Sunday Game 10 years ago as some of us could see the signs then that Leinster was in trouble. The Media waited far too long to complain about the huge imbalance of development funds.

I don’t see a split in Dublin happening, certainly not in isolation. I think it will become far more radical. I have felt this for 2 years. The game will go pro and counties will amalgamate into 10 or 12 regions. The Aidan O’sheas and Ciaran Kilkenny’s etc hold all the power in the GAA today. They generate millions in revenue and will eventually want their slice. In comparison counties like Sligo and Louth and about 12 others contribute nothing to the GAA’s coffers. They need to join with other counties to become regions and then you will have a competition model worth watching.

The intercounty model is out of date. Ireland is becoming more centred around urban areas. No county from the bottom half of the population table have won an ireland since the early 80s.

It’s a question of when GAA goes pro not if.

blanch152

Farawayhome wrote: »

Then why did you say this?



So now you're saying the 6 counties should have been receiving far more funding. You'd have to say they'd need to be funded to a higher level than Dublin going on your population v playing numbers theory.
Basically, you're tieing yourself up in knots here.

Again, that is not what I said. I said that the first thing is to put in place a plan for a costed, grounded initiative focussed on juvenile participation.

There is no confusion. The GDF money isn't to help anyone win an All-Ireland, it is to increase participation. So there is absolutely no contradiction between saying that it is not a fund to "help the Tyrones, Meaths and Mayos" win an All-Ireland, and also saying that "a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding."

Like others on here, who have a focus purely on the county game and on All-Ireland outcomes, you are missing the whole point about what the money is for.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, that is not what I said. I said that the first thing is to put in place a plan for a costed, grounded initiative focussed on juvenile participation.

There is no confusion. The GDF money isn't to help anyone win an All-Ireland, it is to increase participation. So there is absolutely no contradiction between saying that it is not a fund to "help the Tyrones, Meaths and Mayos" win an All-Ireland, and also saying that "a cross-community proposal to bring GAA to the unionist community in Northern Ireland would deserve significant funding."

Like others on here, who have a focus purely on the county game and on All-Ireland outcomes, you are missing the whole point about what the money is for.

Blanch, one thing I'd question. We all agree Dublin has a large population, two and a half times more than Cork for example. And yet the registered numbers of players are similar, 34,000 for Cork vs 39,000 for Dublin. Dublin's player registration rate also looks to be far behind other major counties.

So it looks like despite all the efforts to increase participation in Dublin, player registration is still relatively low. And player registration would represent people serious about playing the game, not someone who received some training in national school from a games development officer but then never registered with a club.

Would it be the case, that people from non Irish backgrounds are not taking up the sport or registering in large numbers with Dublin clubs? You'd expect some clubs in Dublin to have at least half the team from non Irish backgrounds if it reflected the general population.

Interested to hear your opinions.

I still think the GAA is having problems getting players from a non Irish Catholic background to play the sport, but maybe that is changing at underage level? I wouldn't consider one or two non Irish on a team to be a significant improvement.

Bonniedog

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Would it be the case, that people from non Irish backgrounds are not taking up the sport or registering in sufficient numbers with Dublin clubs? Interested to hear your opinions.

There is minimal interest by non Irish people in GAA, and that's 25% of the city population, maybe more, and expanding.

ToBeFrank123

Its questionable why after millions of GDF funds to Dublin over 15 years, the player registration rate remains relatively low. Participation doesn't appear to be seriously raised. You'd have to query the cost-benefits in this regard. Looks like a lot of money thrown at the low participation rate with a relatively small increase.

I wouldn't consider children handpassing a ball in a playground with a games development officer and then never playing the sport again "participation".

Dots1982

Have heard of anecdotal stories of Dublin Clubs like na fianna & kilmacud having 10 different teams at underage levels.

Not sure I buy the stories that participation rates aren’t increasing.

And that non national kids won’t play GAA because their parents didn’t play it. Sounds like BS to me. Kids play whatever is there to be played.

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

Have heard of anecdotal stories of Dublin Clubs like na fianna & kilmacud having 10 different teams at underage levels.

Not sure I buy the stories that participation rates aren’t increasing.

And that non national kids won’t play GAA because their parents didn’t play it. Sounds like BS to me. Kids play whatever is there to be played.

The anecdote of 10 different teams at underage level wouldn't be too surprising.

Dublin has two and half times the population of Cork but only about half the clubs, with slightly more registered players. So you'd expect 5 times more players on average per club in Dublin, although because of the relatively low participation rate in Dublin, it could be less in some cases. I'm sure there are densely populated areas of Cork where there are 2 two teams for some age groups. Because of Dublins large population but relatively low number of clubs, player numbers will be huge at some clubs, although not all. It means fierce competition for places on the first team. It also means the games development officers don't have to go around to as many clubs, saving them time.

Cork I believe have only 10 games development officers or something like that, spread out over the largest county and 259 clubs. So roughly one officer per 26 clubs.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The anecdote of 10 different teams at underage level wouldn't be too surprising.

Dublin has two and half times the population of Cork but only about half the clubs, with slightly more registered players. So you'd expect 5 times more players on average per club in Dublin, although because of the relatively low participation rate in Dublin, it could be less in some cases. I'm sure there are densely populated areas of Cork where there are 2 two teams for some age groups. Because of Dublins large population but relatively low number of clubs, player numbers will be huge at some clubs, although not all. It means fierce competition for places on the first team. It also means the games development officers don't have to go around to as many clubs, saving them time.

Cork I believe have only 10 games development officers or something like that, spread out over the largest county and 259 clubs. So roughly one officer per 26 clubs.

Interesting thing about cork is their cul camps get 13k kids attending. Dublin get 9k. Everyone else is way back.

It’s just black and white, the future of Gaelic football belongs to the big urban centers and probably Kerry as they are the “magic men” of the sport.

The competition structure will have to eventually catch up.

It’s such a mess at the moment.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The anecdote of 10 different teams at underage level wouldn't be too surprising.

Dublin has two and half times the population of Cork but only about half the clubs, with slightly more registered players. So you'd expect 5 times more players on average per club in Dublin, although because of the relatively low participation rate in Dublin, it could be less in some cases. I'm sure there are densely populated areas of Cork where there are 2 two teams for some age groups. Because of Dublins large population but relatively low number of clubs, player numbers will be huge at some clubs, although not all. It means fierce competition for places on the first team. It also means the games development officers don't have to go around to as many clubs, saving them time.

Cork I believe have only 10 games development officers or something like that, spread out over the largest county and 259 clubs. So roughly one officer per 26 clubs.

You also mentioned the games development officers in Dublin. Interesting stat on them is that Dublin has more GAA games development officers than the whole country has in FAI games development staff

And some soccer folk say soccer is the biggest sport in the country....

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

You also mentioned the games development officers in Dublin. Interesting stat on them is that Dublin has more GAA games development officers than the whole country has in FAI games development staff

And some soccer folk say soccer is the biggest sport in the country....

That's really interesting about Dublin having more GDOs than the FAI! And the FAI are hoping to train their players to a professional or premier league standard.

GDOs seem to be the difference between success and failure and will be in future. Its now all based on very scientific development and as you say the concentration of players in centres of excellence. Dublin have a headstart on this, huge numbers of players centred in relatively few clubs, making the most of the GDOs and facilities. Large rural counties with low population densities are at a disadvantage.

The whole thing is very interesting but at the same time, if trends continue as you say, counties with large urban centres such as Limerick, Galway and Dublin will dominate in football and hurling. I'm guessing Corks disadvantage is that hurling is popular in the city but football is more rural. Or else rugby and soccer dominate in urban centres.