Changes in the GAA - super thread

ArielAtom

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I didn't say it was owned by them. I said it is handed over to them to play their games at. No other county has that advantage with little or no debt overhang.
And that's not even mentioning two home Super 8 games which is totally taking the p*ss.

I think you might find they are playing games there to generate money for the association. They play their nominated home game in CP and their CP games as Detroit in the Super 8 fixtures.

Farawayhome

ArielAtom wrote: »

Agreed, if funding was fair it would be based on playing numbers. Kilkenny got funded for a football team for years and never fielded. I’m really enjoying watching this Dublin team, years of not winning had taken its toll. I feel for you.

Dublin are far out of line with everyone else based on playing numbers, population, any measure you want to use. That you've resorted to deflection when battered with facts is no surprise.

ThunbergsAreGo

Farawayhome wrote: »

They won one in 2012, their first since 1984! They've won 4 u21 All Ireland's since the funding began, they only won one in their entire history before that! That is staggering.

And what phenomenal teams those 21s were!

Farawayhome

naughtb4 wrote: »

And what phenomenal teams those 21s were!

2010: O'Carroll, Cooper, McCarthy, Rock.
2012: McCaffrey, Byrne, Kilkenny, Mannion.
2014: Byrne, Small, McCaffery, Fenton, Scully, Manion, Costello.
2017: Murchan, Howard, O'Callaghan.

Some were there 12 and 14 but you can see the level of player you can produce when you have the highly financed development machine in operation.

ToBeFrank123

ArielAtom wrote: »

I think you might find they are playing games there to generate money for the association. They play their nominated home game in CP and their CP games as Detroit in the Super 8 fixtures.

But they are no longer generating money for the association.
Teams like Galway hurlers generate significant crowds and funds for the GAA and Leinster.

A Leinster football final between two non Dublin teams would have attracted far more of an attendance than 47,000, especially Kildare v Meath. Other games in Leinster also would attract bigger crowds.

Dublin are no longer a cashcow, in fact at this stage, Croke Park are probably only covering the cost of opening the stadium for some Dublin championship games. In a few years they will be making a loss on Dublin games. Maybe then they will wake up, although it will be too late to turn the ship around by then.

Competitions with no competitive edge equals low crowds.

The GAA would do anything for full houses in Croke Park like happened during the Meath Dublin rivalry of the 1980s. But those days seem to be over now, thanks to the very same GAA.

bruschi

ArielAtom wrote: »

Could you post the breakdown on travel? Very interested in that v spend on other aspects of team prep.

this here should give you a bit of an insight.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-reign-supreme-but-where-does-your-county-rank-on-the-2018-gaa-rich-list-36922874.html

1 Dublin

Commercial: €1,462,529
Fundraising: €54,997
Central Media: €175,000
Competitions: €213,892
Expenses: €251,854
Provincial: €29,250

TOTAL: €2,187,522

TEAM COSTS: €1,604,353


2 Mayo

Commercial: €549,705
Fundraising: €921,249
Central Media: €175,000
Competitions: €143,805
Expenses: €370,284
Provincial: €8,600

TOTAL: €2,168,643

TEAM COSTS: €1,542,547

this was for 2017.

These figures here:
https://www.the42.ie/mayo-gaa-3-3115597-Dec2016/

are for Mayos expenditure in 2016 , which is somewhat similar to their €1.5m spend in 2017. Of their approx €1.6m expenditure in 2016, €580k, or 36% of it, is on travel expenses. Also note, in 2017, Dublins overall expenditure was higher than Mayos.

the different ways in receiving revenue are quite contrasting too. Not having to worry about fundraising is a huge bonus and is great for Dublin to be able to command such commercial revenue.

doc_17

Some people are referring to the costs of preparing the Mayo team compared to Dublin.

Those people that hold it up as an example of Mayo having as much to spend as Dublin don’t seem to get that Mayo are probably paying a huge amount in travel expenses compared to Dublin.

ArielAtom

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

But they are no longer generating money for the association.
Teams like Galway hurlers generate significant crowds and funds for the GAA and Leinster.

A Leinster football final between two non Dublin teams would have attracted far more of an attendance than 47,000, especially Kildare v Meath. Other games in Leinster also would attract bigger crowds.

Dublin are no longer a cashcow, in fact at this stage, Croke Park are probably only covering the cost of opening the stadium for some Dublin championship games. In a few years they will be making a loss on Dublin games. Maybe then they will wake up, although it will be too late to turn the ship around by then.

Competitions with no competitive edge equals low crowds.

The GAA would do anything for full houses in Croke Park like happened during the Meath Dublin rivalry of the 1980s. But those days seem to be over now, thanks to the very same GAA.

If you say so. Show me the attendance figures for Galway hurlers v Dublin footballers and prove that Dublin are no longer generating money. I await you figures.

ArielAtom

Farawayhome wrote: »

They won one in 2012, their first since 1984! They've won 4 u21 All Ireland's since the funding began, they only won one in their entire history before that! That is staggering.

So one minor AI and four u21 is staggering improvement. What metrics are you using for that summation?

Dots1982

ArielAtom wrote: »

So one minor AI and four u21 is staggering improvement. What metrics are you using for that summation?

4 under 21 all ireland titles in a decade is staggering by any metric. I’d imagine it’s unprecedented in the history of Gaelic Football.

Jaden

Dots1982 wrote: »

4 under 21 all ireland titles in a decade is staggering by any metric. I’d imagine it’s unprecedented in the history of Gaelic Football.

Galway did four in the 00s - 2002, 2005, 2011, 2013
Cork did SIX in the 80s - 1980, 1981, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989
Kerry Have done four in decade TWICE:
1973, 1975, 1976, 1977
and
1990, 1995, 1996, 1998

So it's been done in the 70s 80s 90s 00s and 10s, it's actually the Norm.

Dots1982

Jaden wrote: »

Galway did four in the 00s - 2002, 2005, 2011, 2013
Cork did SIX in the 80s - 1980, 1981, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989
Kerry Have done four in decade TWICE:
1973, 1975, 1976, 1977
and
1990, 1995, 1996, 1998

So it's been done in the 70s 80s 90s 00s and 10s, it's actually the Norm.

Galway done 4 in 12 years not a decade by your own numbers but fair enough. 4 in a decade is a huge achievement so it’s daft to say it’s was not anything amazing by the other poster.

Jaden

Dots1982 wrote: »

Galway done 4 in 12 years not a decade by your own numbers but fair enough. 4 in a decade is a huge achievement so it’s daft to say it’s was not anything amazing by the other poster.

I stand corrected on Galway. Well spotted.

But is it really amazing if it's the norm? That said, it's impressive, but Corks was at least 50% more impressive, especially given their dual status.

ArielAtom

Farawayhome wrote: »

2010: O'Carroll, Cooper, McCarthy, Rock.
2012: McCaffrey, Byrne, Kilkenny, Mannion.
2014: Byrne, Small, McCaffery, Fenton, Scully, Manion, Costello.
2017: Murchan, Howard, O'Callaghan.

Some were there 12 and 14 but you can see the level of player you can produce when you have the highly financed development machine in operation.

All excellent players. What a great bunch of lads.

ToBeFrank123

Dublin had next to no tradition at u21 level until the millions started pouring in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAA_Football_Under-20_All-Ireland_Championship

Dublin
Winners 5
2003, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017

It will be interesting to see how the switch to U20 plays out. So far Kildare have won a title. The Kerry minors of the last few years should in theory start cleaning up.

The fact its a year earlier may impact Dublin as the u21 seemed to be a grade they targeted funds. Give it a few years though they will be back to winning it every other year.

At least at minor level, natural footballers still reign supreme.

ShyMets

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Dublin had next to no tradition at u21 level until the millions started pouring in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAA_Football_Under-20_All-Ireland_Championship

Dublin
Winners 5
2003, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017

It will be interesting to see how the switch to U20 plays out. So far Kildare have won a title. The Kerry minors of the last few years should in theory start cleaning up.

The fact its a year earlier may impact Dublin as the u21 seemed to be a grade they targeted funds. Give it a few years though they will be back to winning it every other year.

At least at minor level, natural footballers still reign supreme.

I'm far from an expert at GAA but I'd regard players like Brogan, Connolly, O'Callaghan, Fenton, McCarthy & Killkenny to be pretty damn 'natural'

ToBeFrank123

ShyMets wrote: »

I'm far from an expert at GAA but I'd regard players like Brogan, Connolly, O'Callaghan, Fenton, McCarthy & Killkenny to be pretty damn 'natural'

Fenton couldn't even make the Dublin minor team. Dublin, while having huge advantages, still have no record of note at minor level. You'd have to ask why is this?
Kerry on other hand have won 5 in a row at minor.

So who do you think has the more natural footballers?

Dublin's advantages appears to be in numbers as well as strength and conditioning, and training at U21 and senior level. Dublin players are near to professional sportsmen by this stage, whereas players in other counties have to deal with serious logistical problems such as being 3rd level students in a different parts of the country. That and the fact Dublin players can command and almost live off sponsorship and appearances fees, while the same opportunities aren't available to players in rural counties, and many of them the most talented hen decide to go abroad such as to Australia.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fenton couldn't even make the Dublin minor team. Dublin, while having huge advantages, still have no record of note at minor level. You'd have to ask why is this?
Kerry on other hand have won 5 in a row at minor.

So who do you think has the more natural footballers?

Dublin's advantages appears to be in numbers as well as strength and conditioning, and training at U21 and senior level. Dublin players are near to professional sportsmen by this stage, whereas players in other counties have to deal with serious logistical problems such as being 3rd level students in a different parts of the country. That and the fact, Dublin players can command and almost live off sponsorship and appearances fees, while the same opportunities aren't available to players in rural counties, many of who then decide to go abroad such as to Australia.

Fenton couldn’t make the Dublin minor team..so what?

Most of their present team did make their minor teams.

Dublin are still the most successful Leinster county this decade at minor level and it’s being a carve up between Kildare and Dublin really.

Kildare are producing some excellent footballers but it’s a struggle to motivate them for senior football as they are in Dublin’s shadow and not showing signs of coming out of it.

Dublin also had a lot of dual players at minor level. Kilkenny, Costello & Callaghan were prodigious at both.

Maybe they had bad managers. Maybe Dublin pick very young minor teams.

Don’t think it’s much to do with Dublin not having natural footballers.

Pogue eile

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fenton couldn't even make the Dublin minor team. Dublin, while having huge advantages, still have no record of note at minor level. You'd have to ask why is this?
Kerry on other hand have won 5 in a row at minor.

So who do you think has the more natural footballers?

You keep letting your arguemnt down by spouting incorrect nonsense - whqt happened in the 20 yesra before Kerry's five in a row? No AI in 20 years at minor level but yet won 7 Senior AI's in the same period.

Feck all to do with natural footballers and infact if anything U21 is a far happier hunting ground for 'natural footballers' as their is inevitably a distinct lack of tactics owing to the lack of access to players.

ShyMets

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fenton couldn't even make the Dublin minor team. Dublin, while having huge advantages, still have no record of note at minor level. You'd have to ask why is this?
Kerry on other hand have won 5 in a row at minor.

So who do you think has the more natural footballers?

Dublin's advantages appears to be in numbers as well as strength and conditioning, and training at U21 and senior level. Dublin players are near to professional sportsmen by this stage, whereas players in other counties have to deal with serious logistical problems such as being 3rd level students in a different parts of the country. That and the fact Dublin players can command and almost live off sponsorship and appearances fees, while the same opportunities aren't available to players in rural counties, and many of them the most talented hen decide to go abroad such as to Australia.

Any proof of this or is it just a wild assertion?

ToBeFrank123

Pogue eile wrote: »

You keep letting your arguemnt down by spouting incorrect nonsense - whqt happened in the 20 yesra before Kerry's five in a row? No AI in 20 years at minor level but yet won 7 Senior AI's in the same period.

Feck all to do with natural footballers and infact if anything U21 is a far happier hunting ground for 'natural footballers' as their is inevitably a distinct lack of tactics owing to the lack of access to players.

Not really nonsense. The point I made which you missed is despite all the millions invested in Dublin football, they have very few AI minor titles to show for it in recent years, in fact just the one in the last 35 years.
Kerry despite gaps have won 7 in that period, including the last 5 in a row.

So why do Dublin go on to dominate at senior while Kerry continue to struggle at senior?

Can you answer that, with reasonable details, and in a non confrontational way for once if possible?

My own view is Dublin are targeting money at the u20/u21 grade, money other counties simply do not have.

Pogue eile

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Not really nonsense. The point I made which you missed is despite all the millions invested in Dublin football, they have very few AI minor titles to show for it in recent years, in fact just the one in the last 35 years.
Kerry despite gaps have won 7 in that period, including the last 5 in a row.

So why do Dublin go on to dominate at senior while Kerry continue to struggle at senior?

Can you answer that, with reasonable details, and in a non confrontational way for once if possible?

My own view is Dublin are targeting money at the u20/u21 grade, money other counties simply do not have.

I have agreed with many of your points and have not been confrontational, but you are being completely irrational and are not willing to listen to anything that isnt 100% in agreement with you twisting facts and stats to suit your retoric and puting forward irrelevant opinions as fact, ironically the same offence you keep accusing the Dublin posters off.

To be honest this thread is a complete clusterfcuk and I'm out!

ToBeFrank123

ShyMets wrote: »

Any proof of this or is it just a wild assertion?

Yep

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-football-stars-commanding-hefty-fees-for-promotional-appearances-38193584.html

ShyMets

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Not really nonsense. The point I made which you missed is despite all the millions invested in Dublin football, they have very few AI minor titles to show for it in recent years, in fact just the one in the last 35 years.
Kerry despite gaps have won 7 in that period, including the last 5 in a row.

So why do Dublin go on to dominate at senior while Kerry continue to struggle at senior?

Can you answer that, with reasonable details, and in a non confrontational way for once if possible?

My own view is Dublin are targeting money at the u20/u21 grade, money other counties simply do not have.

I suspect you're correct. Dublin don't seem to be as concerned with winning Minor titles as other counties. The priority at that level is pick players who they feel can kick on at U20/21 level and then progress to Senior.

I still don't know what this has to do with the natural footballers jibe. Fenton didn't play at minor, far enough, but he is widely regarded as the best midfielder in the game. This would suggest that he has bags of natural ability

ToBeFrank123

ShyMets wrote: »

I suspect you're correct. Dublin don't seem to be as concerned with winning Minor titles as other counties. The priority at that level is pick players who they feel can kick on at U20/21 level and then progress to Senior.

I still don't know what this has to do with the natural footballers jibe. Fenton didn't play at minor, far enough, but he is widely regarded as the best midfielder in the game. This would suggest that he has bags of natural ability

As others have said, tactics, training and all that are less important at minor level. Ergo natural footballers playing natural football, without systems, advanced strength and conditioning, a background team of dozens, sports psychologists, etc. etc. Some of these do feature at minor level but not to the same degree as senior.

People are getting confrontational and angry at facts I'm pointing out, I don't get it tbh. When you speak the truth, some people get angry and accuse you of twisting things, when that's the last thing I'm doing. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As others have said, tactics, training and all that are less important at minor level. Ergo natural footballers playing natural football, without systems, advanced strength and conditioning, a background team of dozens, sports psychologists, etc. etc. Some of these do feature at minor level but not to the same degree as senior.

People are getting confrontational and angry at facts I'm pointing out, I don't get it tbh. When you speak the truth, some people get angry and accuse you of twisting things, when that's the last thing I'm doing. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

I think you’re mainly drawing conclusions than presenting facts.

I presented other reasons they under achieve at minor level; they pick younger teams, they had bad managers, high amount of dual players. Someone also said they may pick a particular type of footballer. This might also be true. Dublin have no Aidan O’sheas or Kieran Donaghys. They pick lads who can run and run and run rather than bulkier guys. Bulk may be best at minor level.

I don’t know. But you’re assuming a lot of consclusions when it’s not like Dublin are a busted flush at minor. They win plenty at minor level.

ShyMets

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As others have said, tactics, training and all that are less important at minor level. Ergo natural footballers playing natural football, without systems, advanced strength and conditioning, a background team of dozens, sports psychologists, etc. etc. Some of these do feature at minor level but not to the same degree as senior.

People are getting confrontational and angry at facts I'm pointing out, I don't get it tbh. When you speak the truth, some people get angry and accuse you of twisting things, when that's the last thing I'm doing. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

You seem to be suggesting that Dublin don't produce natural footballers. That its all down to coaching and conditioning. Yes, that does play a part. But Dublin would not have won six All ireland's in this decade without having some wonderfully gifted footballers

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

I think you’re mainly drawing conclusions than presenting facts.

I presented other reasons they under achieve at minor level; they pick younger teams, they had bad managers, high amount of dual players. Someone also said they may pick a particular type of footballer. This might also be true. Dublin have no Aidan O’sheas or Kieran Donaghys. They pick lads who can run and run and run rather than bulkier guys. Bulk may be best at minor level.

I don’t know. But you’re assuming a lot of consclusions when it’s not like Dublin are a busted flush at minor. They win plenty at minor level.

Fact - Dublin have won 1 minor in 35 years.
Fact - Dublin have won 4 U21s in the last 10 years and only 1 in the previous 50 years of the competition.

The facts are pretty clear and I've presented them clearly.

Edgware

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fact - Dublin have won 1 minor in 35 years.
Fact - Dublin have won 4 U21s in the last 10 years and only 1 in the previous 50 years of the competition.

The facts are pretty clear and I've presented them clearly.

You can use facts to prove anything

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Fact - Dublin have won 1 minor in 35 years.
Fact - Dublin have won 4 U21s in the last 10 years and only 1 in the previous 50 years of the competition.

The facts are pretty clear and I've presented them clearly.

And you’ve built a narrative and around why you think that is happening which you are entitled to do but I wouldn’t subscribe to the narrative been on the money personally.