Changes in the GAA - super thread

PhuckHugh22

La Bamba wrote: »

Thats disappointing, appreciate the feedback all the same as it does show that this echo chamber mindset is not an issue limited to twitter and facebook.

Just because i dislike Ewan McKenna's writing does not mean that i live in some "echo chamber"(this sounds exactly like something Ewan would say fwiw).

It just means that i dont think Ewan McKenna is a good journalist and i would rather not put myself through the torture of having to read his garbage.

La Bamba

naughtb4 wrote: »

To answer your question Ewan,(and to be fair, I haven't read the article in detail) where does this fairness stop?

Do we split Kildare so its the same size as Carlow? Do we fund on a per person basis so that Dublin still receives more? Do we punish kids in Dublin by removing funding for them?

I disagree with the fact that he makes it all about money (which isnt spent on the senior team) and takes away from the achievement on what are amateur players.

The major thing I disagree with, is you setting up a thread on something that is discussed in about 4 others in detail

I can assure you I am not Ewan McKenna. I feel his behavior on twitter does the points he raises in his articles a massive diservice and he would be much better off deleting his account.

Yeah I agree , funding on a person by person basis is a lot fairer. I dont have the figures here but it is common knowledge that Dublin receive multiples of funding per player compared to other counties.

I agree, he doenst recognise the achievements of some super super players that Dublin have. He could be a bit more balanced in his articles but I tend to agree with his main point regarfing the funding disparities.

I havnt found a thread that specifically addresses the issues in this article so I felt I shoudl create one. Moderaters, feel free to remove this thread if you feel this is duplicating some other thread.

Dyr

Barlett wrote: »

But we need people like him in journalism, ?

We need liars in Journalism?

kilns

STB. wrote: »

Perhaps you can explain what happened between 1995 and 2011.

Dublin had the players at that time also, they just didnt have the mental strength and the quality of management they have now.

Also, it was a period when there were also some great teams. To be honest one of the reasons I think this Dublin team are so dominant is that that standard of opposition is very poor. Kerry are average, Tyrone are average, Galway too defensive, Meath and Kildare words cant describe and Mayo are totally overrated.

ShyMets

My word. We haven't had one of these threads in while:D

ToBeFrank123

"Dublin supporters criticize journalist who criticizes Dublin's advantages" shock horror.

Mokuba

STB. wrote: »

Another point that is sadly missed is that Dublin went through regular slump periods of under performance. Just look at the 70s before Keaveney et al. Dublin had to be rebuilt from scratch back then.


Also the financial doping would have you believe that the Dublin management have imported athletes from abroad at considerable cost when nothing could be further from the truth. There are quite a number of players that are sons of former Dublin players. McCaffrey, Rock, McManamon, McCathy, Brogan just off the top of my head. Many of these have come into the game younger, but I have no doubt that they dedicate their own time to improve their own games, whilst also holding down day jobs.

And all of them have access to a professional like setup - facilities, coaches, backroom staff.

This is how they were able to get to the next level and stay there.

Dublin is able to provide a professional behind the scenes approach to an amateur game, when everybody else is still primarily amateur in their approach.

The reason for this is because Dublin are financially doped. They can heavily invest in infrastructure at inter county and at underage levels. Other teams don't have the millions to do this and are already way behind Dublin before a ball is kicked, which when Dublin play is kicked in Croke Park.

They will easily attain 5 in a row and can realistically start looking at 10. They have won every Leinster Championship since 2005 bar one and can realistically expect to keep consecutively winning them well into the late 2020's.

Maybe at that point they people who want to keep their heads in the sand will stop talking about nonsense "periods of dominance". Probably be too late by then though.

shockframe

There is a lot of misinformation that the likes of Mckenna peddle about.

For a start Dublin's dominance could be placed as much as anything from the hammering to Kerry in 2009. The ground zero of Dublin Football. If it had been a close defeat then Dublin might have bumbled along the next few years but the manner of it brought about a huge shift in culture.

Also it ignores the fact that Dublin has always had a vibrant Football scene. The likes of Ballymun, Kilmacud Crokes, St Vincents, Ballyboden didn't exactly appear overnight.

Dublin isn't without its own issues either. Land issues and clubs like Erins Isle, St Sylvesters etc not powerhouses.

Money helps but Kerry and Mayo aren't exactly on their knees either. Ditto Galway, Limerick and Cork Hurling. Its up to those to make the best of their resources.

And for all those who talk about money then the likes of Laois, Kildare and the Cork County Board don't compare favourably.

And for all the talk of finances Dublin has a once in a lifetime squad of players. The likes of Niall Scully and Brian Howard are good players but not at the same level as Mccarthy, Brogan, Mcmahon in their prime. You would think they were Marvel like action heroes the way some people go on and on.

STB.

kilns wrote: »

Dublin had the players at that time also, they just didnt have the mental strength and the quality of management they have now.

Also, it was a period when there were also some great teams. To be honest one of the reasons I think this Dublin team are so dominant is that that standard of opposition is very poor. Kerry are average, Tyrone are average, Galway too defensive, Meath and Kildare words cant describe and Mayo are totally overrated.

Yes. I agree with much of what of what you have said. It seems to me that Dublin are not allowed have a good team of players nowadays without some hack making a link between funding and performance. Its very likely that they are just a team that comes along every few decades. Many are from normal suburban areas with normal school backgrounds and jobs. Some of the articles you would read these days from the likes of MacKenna would have you believe they were grown in a laboratory.

I also agree with the standard outside of Dublin. It has regressed, but that is not Dublin's fault.

Kerry were quite dominant in the past as were Kilkenny in hurling. Was there as much forensic auditing for a reason ?

Mokuba

STB. wrote: »

Kerry were quite dominant in the past as were Kilkenny in hurling. Was there as much forensic auditing for a reason ?

We're either of those teams receiving millions more than everybody else through the GAA and through sponsors year on year?

There's a clear link between Dublin's recent dominance and their rapidly increasing income, and the massively growing chasm between their income and the other counties income.

BarryD2

STB. wrote: »

Kerry were quite dominant in the past as were Kilkenny in hurling. Was there as much forensic auditing for a reason ?

You can look at Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone & Kilkenny, Limerick, Tipp etc and it's plain to be seen that there is some sort of rough equivalence in general terms of population growth, size, economic growth and investment. It's likely that standards will keep up to a certain level in those counties and that occasionally a great team comes together and dominates for a few years, then declines.

But that plainly goes out the window with Dublin. There's a great imbalance weighted towards Dublin and it's bound to reflect itself in terms of sporting as well as economic success.

Which is fine if you accept that the playing field is seriously tilted.

kilns

Mokuba wrote: »

We're either of those teams receiving millions more than everybody else through the GAA and through sponsors year on year?

There's a clear link between Dublin's recent dominance and their rapidly increasing income, and the massively growing chasm between their income and the other counties income.

Or how many players can you name from the current Kerry and Tyrone teams that would get in their great teams of the 00s.

The standards outside of Dublin are very poor, it is just a slump and teams will come again but at the moment Dublin have that good crop and they always have and always will have a good crop due to population alone but usually others counties have also but they currently dont. I actually dont think that this Dublin team right now is that great, they are brilliantly coached and know all their roles to perfection and that is down to Gavin. However, I dont think they will win the All Ireland this year.

Kauto

shockframe wrote: »

There is a lot of misinformation that the likes of Mckenna peddle about.

For a start Dublin's dominance could be placed as much as anything from the hammering to Kerry in 2009. The ground zero of Dublin Football. If it had been a close defeat then Dublin might have bumbled along the next few years but the manner of it brought about a huge shift in culture.

Also it ignores the fact that Dublin has always had a vibrant Football scene. The likes of Ballymun, Kilmacud Crokes, St Vincents, Ballyboden didn't exactly appear overnight.

Dublin isn't without its own issues either. Land issues and clubs like Erins Isle, St Sylvesters etc not powerhouses.

Money helps but Kerry and Mayo aren't exactly on their knees either. Ditto Galway, Limerick and Cork Hurling. Its up to those to make the best of their resources.

And for all those who talk about money then the likes of Laois, Kildare and the Cork County Board don't compare favourably.

And for all the talk of finances Dublin has a once in a lifetime squad of players. The likes of Niall Scully and Brian Howard are good players but not at the same level as Mccarthy, Brogan, Mcmahon in their prime. You would think they were Marvel like action heroes the way some people go on and on.

The likes of Mayo and Kerry have to do massive amounts of fund raising every year to try and fund their teams. Dublin have the luxury of not having to do this.

Kauto

The biggest advantage Dublin have over every other county is Player Recovery. The majority if not all their players are based in Dublin. Mayo, Tyrone etc, a lot of their players are Dublin based and 2-3 hour round trips twice a week to training, often not getting back until 12.30/1AM at night.

briandebum

The problem with talking about the Dublin "issue" is that there are so many different problems in football right now and it's tough to discern them from each other or separate them out.

For example, this Dublin side are undoubtedly fantastic footballers, that's probably the main factor in their dominance. But they are also favored off the field in many ways, some of which are outside their control such as population & their location as the capital.

It's tough to argue for reduced funding when they do in fact have to serve so many more people in the city.

Then there's the issue of the championship format, I mean how are Carlow supposed to compete on the same level when there's such a distinction of population size? Again the format is outside Dublin's control.

I think the reason it's such a talking point these days, is the sheer manner of their victories. Like seeing the Meath match, one of their traditional rivals, would just deflate any hype you had for the summer. It looked like pros vs amateurs out there which lends credence to the money argument. Dublin besides being great footballers, are definitely the best prepared & coached team ever.

One thing which I would like to see done, is centralizing sponsorship money across counties. Dublin are likely to always have more sponsorship money than the rest which is an advantage that they shouldn't have. Leveling the field there is a simple enough change which could spread investment across the country.

However its a really complex issue which doesn't look like it's going away any time soon given the average age of the Dublin team.

kilns

Kauto wrote: »

The biggest advantage Dublin have over every other county is Player Recovery. The majority if not all their players are based in Dublin. Mayo, Tyrone etc, a lot of their players are Dublin based and 2-3 hour round trips twice a week to training, often not getting back until 12.30/1AM at night.

But this has always been an advantage even throughout the 80s, 90s and 00s

Dublin do have many advantages however and I do not thing anyone would argue with it. Even Dublin supporters dont want to see a Meath team so bad etc, but as I know from Meath supporters its dominated by politics and that is the issue with many county boards.

Dublin will always been there at the top table but will not always be dominant, as evident by the current team, the exceptional players of the last 10 years are not really being replaced by superstars

shockframe

Kauto wrote: »

The biggest advantage Dublin have over every other county is Player Recovery. The majority if not all their players are based in Dublin. Mayo, Tyrone etc, a lot of their players are Dublin based and 2-3 hour round trips twice a week to training, often not getting back until 12.30/1AM at night.

Or they could also stay in the home county overnight and travel to Dublin in the morning. I'm sure this happens also.

Kauto

kilns wrote: »

But this has always been an advantage even throughout the 80s, 90s and 00s

Dublin do have many advantages however and I do not thing anyone would argue with it. Even Dublin supporters dont want to see a Meath team so bad etc, but as I know from Meath supporters its dominated by politics and that is the issue with many county boards.

Dublin will always been there at the top table but will not always be dominant, as evident by the current team, the exceptional players of the last 10 years are not really being replaced by superstars

Its very hard to see how they wont be as dominant. They have the structures in place over the last 10-20 years and are now reaping the reward. They only need to add the odd player every year to continue the success which they will do at their ease.

Its not Dublin's fault. The GAA have serious problems going forward and its very hard to see any way this can be rectified in the next 10-20 years.

Kauto

shockframe wrote: »

Or they could also stay in the home county overnight and travel to Dublin in the morning. I'm sure this happens also.

Either way its far from ideal in what is now a professional style setup at the top level.

kilns

Kauto wrote: »

Its very hard to see how they wont be as dominant. They have the structures in place over the last 10-20 years and are now reaping the reward. They only need to add the odd player every year to continue the success which they will do at their ease.

Its not Dublin's fault. The GAA have serious problems going forward and its very hard to see any way this can be rectified in the next 10-20 years.

Will they have another Cluxton, Connolly, Brogan, McCaffrey in the next 10 years, I dont know I doubt it, these guys were exceptional players and what will replace them will not be as good but they will be good and will keep Dublin as one of the top teams. Its a question of what the other counties will produce over this period too.

kilns

Kauto wrote: »

Either way its far from ideal in what is now a professional style setup at the top level.

I can tell you as fact they had a very professional type set up all throughout the 2000´s but it didnt win them anything. Talent wins you things at the end of the day and I think the only reason Dublin are going for 5 in a row is because the standards are poor, to say Mayo was Dublins nearest challengers over the last few years says it all I think, an average team with good heart

Kauto

kilns wrote: »

I can tell you as fact they had a very professional type set up all throughout the 2000´s but it didnt win them anything. Talent wins you things at the end of the day and I think the only reason Dublin are going for 5 in a row is because the standards are poor, to say Mayo was Dublins nearest challengers over the last few years says it all I think, an average team with good heart

Serious dis service to Mayo. Some cracking players. Probably lacked a bit of self belief and would have needed everything to go right for them in order for them to get over the line

kilns

Kauto wrote: »

Serious dis service to Mayo. Some cracking players. Probably lacked a bit of self belief and would have needed everything to go right for them in order for them to get over the line

Really one or two cracking players max, the rest had a great never say die attitude

JeffKenna

kilns wrote: »

Will they have another Cluxton, Connolly, Brogan, McCaffrey in the next 10 years, I dont know I doubt it, these guys were exceptional players and what will replace them will not be as good but they will be good and will keep Dublin as one of the top teams. Its a question of what the other counties will produce over this period too.

But Connolly is gone for the last 2 years and he's barely missed. The same with McCaffrey, he took a year off and wasn't missed. What's there to replace them is as good.

bruschi

STB. wrote: »

.

What people forget is that between 1995 and 2011 Dublin weren't at the races.

Are we counting 95 and 11 or not? AI wins in those years. Lets not count them so just to keep the count lower then for this famine period of 15 years

Football:
7 Leinster Senior titles
10 Leinster club titles
2 club All Irelands
5 Minor Leinsters
5 Leinsters U21s
2 U21 All Irelands

Hurling:
3 minor Leinsters
3 U21 Leinsters


As a quick comparison for my own county (Wexford), during that same period when we were "competitive"

no trophy at all in football at any grade

3 Leinster hurling,
1 all Ireland
2 Leinster U21s
No minor
No club

I'd surely love to be from a county where we "are not at the races" and to be given multiple millions to try get us back at the races again.

It seems that "not being at the races" means not winning All Irelands. Dublin, during this terribly awful period, won as much as most counties bar Kerry or Tyrone those years and were consistently at the tail end of championships.

Also to add in, Dublin won their second minor Leinster in 40 years, and subsequently adding another 5 Leinster titles in the meantime. Similar for the U21 hurling in Leinster.

Barlett

kilns wrote: »

Will they have another Cluxton, Connolly, Brogan, McCaffrey in the next 10 years, I dont know I doubt it, these guys were exceptional players and what will replace them will not be as good but they will be good and will keep Dublin as one of the top teams. Its a question of what the other counties will produce over this period too.

Brogan basically hasn't been influential since 2016, McCaffrey didn't play in 16 and went off after a couple of mins in the 17 final, Connolly gone already, Rory O'Carroll went, it didn't matter, Paul Flynn gone...doesn't matter. These are all serious players every bit as good as anyone who as ever played the game and yet Dublin keep winning. The team Mayo have the past decade is without doubt the greatest team the county has ever produced, they've All Stars coming out their ears at this stage but Dublin are like an Octopus, once one star disappears there's another grown, ready to take his place. Maybe it's all down to Jim Gavin and his methods, but I doubt it.

crossman47

Kauto wrote: »

The biggest advantage Dublin have over every other county is Player Recovery. The majority if not all their players are based in Dublin. Mayo, Tyrone etc, a lot of their players are Dublin based and 2-3 hour round trips twice a week to training, often not getting back until 12.30/1AM at night.

The bigger advantage is having all their important games at home. And don't tell me Croke Park is not the Dubs home.

theoneeyedman

I see a lot of attacks on Mckenna here, and some calling him either a liar or of being completely wrong/inaccurate.

A lot of inconvenient truths in that article. Whether it is 80% the same article Mckenna has written before or not, or if it annoys you or not, there are a lot of truths in it that doesn't suit a lot of people. That doesn't mean he's wrong, in fact he is mostly right I'd say. He might come across as a bit of a tit at times, and he may be living in Brazil, but neither matters : the crux of his argument is largely correct, and will have to be confronted sooner or later

kilns

Barlett wrote: »

Brogan basically hasn't been influential since 2016, McCaffrey didn't play in 16 and went off after a couple of mins in the 17 final, Connolly gone already, Rory O'Carroll went, it didn't matter, Paul Flynn gone...doesn't matter. These are all serious players every bit as good as anyone who as ever played the game and yet Dublin keep winning. The team Mayo have the past decade is without doubt the greatest team the county has ever produced, they've All Stars coming out their ears at this stage but Dublin are like an Octopus, once one star disappears there's another grown, ready to take his place. Maybe it's all down to Jim Gavin and his methods, but I doubt it.

Yes my point is that the players that are replacing these exceptional players are not of the same standard, Dublin are just ahead of the current poor standard.

Take Keith Higgins and Lee Keegan and nobody else from that Mayo team will be remembered as being exceptional really

grbear

MacKenna can be an awful dose on Twitter but his articles raise decent points at times and he tends to try to punch up. Brolly for instance has developed a bit of a reputation for punching down with that article about Clones being a prime example of it. Mean spirited and seemingly with a factually wrong story about the local club charging for parking.

The Dublin funding story is unfortunately just another example of the GAA becoming a reactive rather proactive organization. Once Dublin signed their big deal with AIG in 2012/13 then it was inevitable that their funding would become an issue. If it had been addressed properly then and a plan put in place to reduce Dublin's central funding by say €50,000 a year, a large amount but one Dublin's administration could cope with if given proper warning, then the funding issue would already have the venom taken out of it. Instead it's a source of constant disagreements.