Changes in the GAA - super thread

Dots1982

kilns wrote: »

I personally think although it wont be popular that Dublin will have to be split into 2, it will take the ethos of the GAA away or the alternative is that some weaker counties combine, either way its not a popular issue.

If for example Dublin did split in two would that also mean the club scene would have to split in two also?

Could be a split but the truth that all gaels have to face up to eventually is that 32 teams in a small country like Ireland is far too many.

10-12 teams and you’ve got a real competition

A country (Australia) far bigger than ours has 18 AFL teams.

We have an obvious attachment to the inter county system but truth is counties like Laois, Louth or Wexford are not really competitive with even Kildare or Meath anymore.

Laois bet Kildare at under 20 this year. Their first win at any level since 2010. I have no idea when the likes of Louth or Wexford etc bet Kildare at any level.

kilns

Dots1982 wrote: »

Could be a split but the truth that all gaels have to face up to eventually is that 32 teams in a small country like Ireland is far too many.

10-12 teams and you’ve got a real competition

A country (Australia) far bigger than ours has 18 AFL teams.

We have an obvious attachment to the inter county system but truth is counties like Laois, Louth or Wexford are not really competitive with even Kildare or Meath anymore.

Laois bet Kildare at under 20 this year. Their first win at any level since 2010. I have no idea when the likes of Louth or Wexford etc bet Kildare at any level.

I agree, a dramatic change is needed for competitiveness like combining even 3 counties together i.e Sligo, Leitrim, Fermanagh for example but the problem could be people will lose that connection and sense of pride in their county which makes the GAA unique in many ways

On another note the provincial championships need to go its crazy to think, Cork have had to do nothing really and are one game away from the Super 8s, when you compare to what Armagh had to do to get to the previous round and then be knocked out.

Dots1982

kilns wrote: »

I agree, a dramatic change is needed for competitiveness like combining even 3 counties together i.e Sligo, Leitrim, Fermanagh for example but the problem could be people will lose that connection and sense of pride in their county

It will have to far more radical than that to make for meaningful change; combining Kildare, Westmeath and Meath...Cork & Kerry...Galway & Mayo.

The smaller counties will have to team up into 5 county amalgamations.

lukin

kilns wrote: »

its not an amazing coincidence that Dublin have a very good group of players, they have had many in the past, the difference now is management and a winning mentality.

So why keep taking the money then if it's "management and a winning mentality" that is the reason for the success?
Why not ask the GAA to reduce your funding?

kilns

lukin wrote: »

So why keep taking the money then if it's "management and a winning mentality" that is the reason for the success?
Why not ask the GAA to reduce your funding?

Is that a serious question?

OK once again the funding is for Games Development i.e. development of the participation and coaching of children throughout the county

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

Is that a serious question?

OK once again the funding is for Games Development i.e. development of the participation and coaching of children throughout the county

You still haven't proved or shown any stats to suggest Dublin is a special case compared to the rest of Ireland and deserves more help with GAA participation.

Every county needs help with participation. This is the scandal of the increased funds to Dublin, it borders on corruption imo. One county favoured over all others with increased funds for no valid reason. And it has completely distorted the playing field in Gaelic football to the point where for example the Leinster Championship has been killed off.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You still haven't proved or shown any stats to suggest Dublin is a special case compared to the rest of Ireland and deserves more help with GAA participation.

Every county needs help with participation. This is the scandal of the increased funds to Dublin, it borders on corruption imo. One county favoured over all others with increased funds for no valid reason. And it has completely distorted the playing field in Gaelic football to the point where for example the Leinster Championship has been killed off.

OK lets breakdown it down simply for you Dublin has 30% of the total population of Ireland. In the 90s the GAA was dying in Dublin, and there was vast areas of Dublin which had no clubs even catering for them, in addition there were new areas of Dublin which were being built which would house thousands and thousands. Something had to be done, like or not Dublin is good for the GAA as no other county can create the revenue streams which Dublin do, if nothing was done, the GAA would be minority sport in Dublin and the GAA in general would have suffered.

As much as you would like to dispute it but the GAA is the number 1 sport in the vast majority of rural areas around the country. It was obvious the need to ensure the future of the GAA in Dublin and the plan was put in place.

Yes some other urban areas around the country the GAA is in the minority and that needs to be addressed and I dont know if the appetite was their from these counties to develop them, all i know is the appetite was in Dublin and I firmly believe without GPOs etc the GAA in Dublin would be tiny minority.

The funding was not about pumping money into elite squads and giving them access to scientests etc it was aimed at children and getting more involved in the game and deep down you know that.

Can you give me a clear example of how the funding has distorted the playing field in gaelic football? Would the players that are there now not be there because of funding? Dublin in the last 10 years have been blessed with some of the most talented players ever to play the game. Are there players of the same standard coming through to take their place, it does not seem so. But why not since they are getting all this funding for the best players???? Dublin always had a population advantage so once a good management structure was put in place there were bound to improve

lukin

kilns wrote: »

Is that a serious question?

OK once again the funding is for Games Development i.e. development of the participation and coaching of children throughout the county

Is there a way of verifying this? How do we know the Dublin County Board are spending every cent of his funding on "children"?
Do the GAA demand proof of this as a condition for providing this funding?
Or do they just take their word for it?

kilns

lukin wrote: »

Is there a way of verifying this? How do we know the Dublin County Board are spending every cent of his funding on "children"?
Do the GAA demand proof of this as a condition for providing this funding?
Or do they just take their word for it?

I dont know off hand if there is exact figures in the accounts but the amount of GPOs on the ground should be proof of what is being done. Dublin have 72 GPOs in the county (not including those who clubs raise money and pay for fully themselves), for example if the salary is 40,000 Eur per year then x 72 is EUR2.88m. Clubs pay 50% which means Dublin County board cover EUR1.44m of the costs. This does not included other things like PRSI etc. and then it does not include costs such a equipment etc. Cork have 7! And they have acknowledged and have refused previously to employ more but have admitted they will be looking at it this year further.

Regarding your other point, can you prove other counties like Mayo, Kilkenny etc put all money given to them into games development?

salmocab

kilns wrote: »

If for example Dublin did split in two would that also mean the club scene would have to split in two also?

Or the hurlers? Extra county board to fund, splitting Dublin would cost a fortune and at the same time cut income. It’s not a runner.

I said on last years version or possibly the year before that what needs to happen is funding needs an overhaul, it needs to targeted at the right areas and there needs to be an investigation into where that is. Should clubs who say have a small juvenile section get more money to grow or one with a big one get more to keep it going taking into account local populations, should KK get more funding for football or less for hurling as punishment for practically ignoring football( I don’t know the answers to these questions). There are loads of questions like this that need answering then plans should be drawn up to distribute funds accordingly.

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

OK lets breakdown it down simply for you Dublin has 30% of the total population of Ireland. In the 90s the GAA was dying in Dublin, and there was vast areas of Dublin which had no clubs even catering for them, in addition there were new areas of Dublin which were being built which would house thousands and thousands. Something had to be done, like or not Dublin is good for the GAA as no other county can create the revenue streams which Dublin do, if nothing was done, the GAA would be minority sport in Dublin and the GAA in general would have suffered.

As much as you would like to dispute it but the GAA is the number 1 sport in the vast majority of rural areas around the country. It was obvious the need to ensure the future of the GAA in Dublin and the plan was put in place.

Yes some other urban areas around the country the GAA is in the minority and that needs to be addressed and I dont know if the appetite was their from these counties to develop them, all i know is the appetite was in Dublin and I firmly believe without GPOs etc the GAA in Dublin would be tiny minority.

The funding was not about pumping money into elite squads and giving them access to scientests etc it was aimed at children and getting more involved in the game and deep down you know that.

Can you give me a clear example of how the funding has distorted the playing field in gaelic football? Would the players that are there now not be there because of funding? Dublin in the last 10 years have been blessed with some of the most talented players ever to play the game. Are there players of the same standard coming through to take their place, it does not seem so. But why not since they are getting all this funding for the best players???? Dublin always had a population advantage so once a good management structure was put in place there were bound to improve

All the same issues you mention above exist in every single county in Ireland. Dublin is not the exception or a special case. Who knows how successful other counties might have become if those counties didn't have rugby, soccer, athletics as competitors. GDOs and GPOs prevent players going to competitors, and most counties don't have that luxury.

The aims for increased funding to Dublin were:
To increase crowds in Croke Park - fail - crowds have gone through the floor. Now the GAA have to resort to putting on concerts in the middle of championship season to earn money.
Bertie to funnel money to his beloved Dublin under the smokescreen of getting the kids to play GAA. Its a pity Bertie didn't have the same regard for children of every other county.

The source of all this had nothing to do with increasing participation as every county suffers with participation problems and Dublin is no different. Every county should be treated equally. When you get to a situation where one county has at least 1 GDO officer at most clubs and 2 at some, whereas other counties have very few, the sport becomes distorted.

Carlow, a weak county, has 4 GDOs. Dublin has 80. An example of the extreme and unbalanced distortion in the sport.

GDOs and more funding equals long term senior IC success. That's a given.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

All the same issues you mention above exist in every single county in Ireland. Dublin is not the exception or a special case. Who knows how successful other counties might have become if those counties didn't have rugby, soccer, athletics as competitors. GDOs and GPOs prevent players going to competitors, and most counties don't have that luxury.

The aims for increased funding to Dublin were:
To increase crowds in Croke Park - fail - crowds have gone through the floor. Now the GAA have to resort to putting on concerts in the middle of championship season to earn money.
Bertie to funnel money to his beloved Dublin under the smokescreen of getting the kids to play GAA. Its a pity Bertie didn't have the same regard for children of every other county.

The source of all this had nothing to do with increasing participation as every county suffers with participation problems and Dublin is no different. Every county should be treated equally. When you get to a situation where one county has at least 1 GDO officer at most clubs and 2 at some, whereas other counties have very few, the sport becomes distorted.

Carlow, a weak county, has 4 GDOs. Dublin has 80. An example of the extreme and unbalanced distortion in the sport.

GDOs and more funding equals long term senior IC success. That's a given.

Again you fail to engage in what is asked of you, so I am done discussing with you and sick of having to repeat stuff to you as you have serious blind spot regards to Dublin.

With regard to Carlow, again on the face of it thats a low number but break that number down GPO per child and actually Carlow is better off, 1 GPO per 3700 children, Dublin is 1 GPO per 4000.

Good luck with the rest of the season

Good lucj

ToBeFrank123

No-one is buying the nonsense that Dublin was a special case that needed extra help. Every county needs help. Making an exception for one county in particular creates a distortion, particularly if its a county that already had a strong tradition. Two words describe the reason Dublin got a huge increase in funding, "Bertie Ahern".

Increased games development funding leads to long term IC success. This was the inevitable and deliberate outcome of the GAA's dodgy deal with Bertie back then. They GAA and Dublin knew exactly what they were doing. Create the right conditions so that Dublin would dominate at Intercounty senior level for decades to come.

Dots1982

I think this whole thing is being wrongly analyzed.

GDO’s train anyone from ages 5-13? Or maybe even higher?

All those kids’ parents have to pay membership for their kids.

Na Fianna for example has 400 kids in their nursery scheme (5-7 years of age). Each kid has to be a member and for kids that young it’s just under 100 euro. That adds up to 35000-39000 euro income every year.

That practically pays for a GPO in itself and the club only pays half!

And that’s only from the Nursery.

It still leaves 2600 adult and Juvenile members who pay higher fees bringing in God Knows What in money. And that’s just one <super>club. There’s about another 8 super clubs in Dublin. At least.

That’s why the GAA focuses on Dublin. The catchment zone is incredible. The income is incredible. If you send a GPO or GDO into Roscommon you get nothing like that kind of return for it.

It’s not really about producing players, it’s about producing PAYERS.

Even 20% of those kids could never be accommodated in Adult teams. There’s far too many of them and far too few adult teams in clubs in Dublin. That’s why this talk of the “retention rate” amuses me.

This money for games development is all about getting huge income into Dublin GAA. In time it’ll produce players that otherwise wouldn’t have played the game but really most guys on intercounty panels are the sons of people steeped in GAA. The sons of county players (brogans, mccaffrey, Rock, McCarthy) or the sons of players who were the best players in their clubs. Maybe there’s one or two lads on the Dublin panel who would never have played GAA because their parents had no interest but in most cases it works the way I’ve said.

Quality Football teams is about bloodlines. Looking at Kerry should teach any one that.

ToBeFrank123

It does produce players though we know that.

Increasing participation and GDOs in Dublin may not have spread the game as widely as hoped, at least not significantly beyond the traditional Catholic Irish demographic. But at least it keeps that demographic interested, motivated and trained to a high standard. They are the bedrock of future IC success.

Increased games development funds and GDOs equals long term IC success. The GAA have no business giving significantly more funds per player to one county than another as it creates a distortion.

Its naïve to believe that increasing GDOs and funding doesn't produce an increasing number of highly trained players who will go on to represent the senior IC team.

Dublin have/had more than enough funds themselves to look after GDOs, they don't actually need that much from the GAA.

Other counties have nowhere near the commercial pull of Dublin. These are the counties that need help.

The GAA really have screwed up the whole funding situation. Even if they started to reverse these mistakes now, it will take decades to unwind the mess they have made. But it looks like their approach is to bury their heads in the sand if John Horan is anything to go by. No problem, nothing to see here, as you were, is the attitude.

doc_17

I’d be more in favour of splitting Dublin before I would even contemplate merging counties. It’s more in line with the ethos of the GAA.

Dots1982

doc_17 wrote: »

I’d be more in favour of splitting Dublin before I would even contemplate merging counties. It’s more in line with the ethos of the GAA.

Won’t do jack**** to help Wexford, Louth, Laois, Offaly, Sligo and on and on and on

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It does produce players though we know that.

Increasing participation and GDOs in Dublin may not have spread the game as widely as hoped, at least not significantly beyond the traditional Catholic Irish demographic. But at least it keeps that demographic interested, motivated and trained to a high standard. They are the bedrock of future IC success.

Increased games development funds and GDOs equals long term IC success. The GAA have no business giving significantly more funds per player to one county than another as it creates a distortion.

Its naïve to believe that increasing GDOs and funding doesn't produce an increasing number of highly trained players who will go on to represent the senior IC team.

Dublin have/had more than enough funds themselves to look after GDOs, they don't actually need that much from the GAA.

Other counties have nowhere near the commercial pull of Dublin. These are the counties that need help.

The GAA really have screwed up the whole funding situation. Even if they started to reverse these mistakes now, it will take decades to unwind the mess they have made. But it looks like their approach is to bury their heads in the sand if John Horan is anything to go by. No problem, nothing to see here, as you were, is the attitude.

You keep saying participation has not increased, where are your statictics to back this up? Nursery figures in Dublin have increased 20% year on year for the last 5 years. You then try to sight the traditional Catholic background of kids as proof it is not spreading, just because you can not see a foreign name on a Dublin minor team, as I already pointed out to you 4% of kids in Dublin are made up of non nationals, so I dont need to spell out the chances of making a minor squad from such minority. Do you know how many non nationals are playing the club game at under age?

Stop throwing out statements that you cannot back up

doc_17

Dots1982 wrote: »

doc_17 wrote: »

I’d be more in favour of splitting Dublin before I would even contemplate merging counties. It’s more in line with the ethos of the GAA.

Won’t do jack**** to help Wexford, Louth, Laois, Offaly, Sligo and on and on and on

Neither will it do them any good to merge them and wipe them out as entities.

Dots1982

doc_17 wrote: »

Neither will it do them any good to merge them and wipe them out as entities.

That’s your opinion. Irish people happily support Liverpool. Where’s the entity connection to a man in Roscrea?

People support success. The identity connection is important but it’s not everything.

doc_17

Well obviously it’s my opinion. Like your opinion was your opinion. Isn’t that the whole point of this?

I would give up following GAA altogether at “county” level if it meant Donegal had to merge with Tyrone. I’m from Donegal. That’s who I follow. It would be easier for Northsiders to follow a Dublin North team than for say a Leitrim person to follow a Sligo/Fermanagh/Leitrim team that maybe only had 3 players from Leitrim on it.

StupidLikeAFox

I urge people to read the annual report for games development, here is one from 2015. https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/tstblikbtwvqfubdiwpe.pdf

You can see that around 40 Dublin clubs had a full time GPO assigned to them, and some of the bigger Dublin clubs also had a coach funded on top of that. This means that if you are a promising club player in Dublin you have access to a trained, full time person who is responsible for developing the talent in the club. If you are a club player in any other county, you have 4 gpos and you are sharing them amongst the other 100s of clubs around the county. So you have a scenario where the club's in Dublin are getting a similar level of support as the counties in the rest of the country. This means Dublin players have more contact time with professional coaches right through their underage career compared with players from other counties

The issue is that Dublin are being treated as a province due to the population but all that development effort is being fed into a single team.

Also, people are saying "but the club's are funding 50% of their salaries". This is not a good thing - it means that they are invested in the club's success, not on the success of a catchment area. It's bizarre that a Dublin club is treated on an almost equal footing to another county

Dots1982

doc_17 wrote: »

Well obviously it’s my opinion. Like your opinion was your opinion. Isn’t that the whole point of this?

I would give up following GAA altogether at “county” level if it meant Donegal had to merge with Tyrone. I’m from Donegal. That’s who I follow. It would be easier for Northsiders to follow a Dublin North team than for say a Leitrim person to follow a Sligo/Fermanagh/Leitrim team that maybe only had 3 players from Leitrim on it.

Ultimately I think people will support a region team over not supporting anything anymore when it comes to elite GAA. The pull is too great and the interest in a new format and the prospect of actually competitive matches between teams that are full of actually elite players would lead to excitement.

32 elite teams in a small country like Ireland is not going to work in the modern era. Too many **** teams with average players that add nothing to the competition

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

Ultimately I think people will support a region team over not supporting anything anymore when it comes to elite GAA. The pull is too great and the interest in a new format and the prospect of actually competitive matches between teams that are full of actually elite players would lead to excitement.

32 elite teams in a small country like Ireland is not going to work in the modern era. Too many **** teams with average players that add nothing to the competition

Remind us how the Railway Cup fared again? Regional teams made up of the best players from the region including from the minnows. Recipe for a success you'd think?

It sunk without trace. I think they were getting crowds of 200 for finals in recent years. They'd get similar crowds for a Sligo/Leitrim/Fermanagh team. It just would have no appeal to the average supporter. You can't turn off county allegiances overnight.

There is nothing wrong with county teams as long as they are all given a chance to be competitive and that is not happening at present.

We know GDOs are the way forward and Dublin received huge help with those. Dubliners know their importance which is why they try to shut down any debate about them and instead introduce pie in the sky notions about combining countries. You can be sure they'd be against giving more GDOs to those regional teams too!

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Remind us how the Railway Cup fared again? Regional teams made up of the best players from the region including from the minnows. Recipe for a success you'd think?

It sunk without trace. I think they were getting crowds of 200 for finals in recent years. They'd get similar crowds for a Sligo/Leitrim/Fermanagh team. It just would have no appeal to the average supporter. You can't turn off county allegiances overnight.

There is nothing wrong with county teams as long as they are all given a chance to be competitive and that is not happening at present.

Comparison doesn’t work. This is taking over from the county system not some pointless add on competition.

There is something wrong with county teams. Fundamentally there are too many counties for too small a country.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Remind us how the Railway Cup fared again? Regional teams made up of the best players from the region including from the minnows. Recipe for a success you'd think?

It sunk without trace. I think they were getting crowds of 200 for finals in recent years. They'd get similar crowds for a Sligo/Leitrim/Fermanagh team. It just would have no appeal to the average supporter. You can't turn off county allegiances overnight.

There is nothing wrong with county teams as long as they are all given a chance to be competitive and that is not happening at present.

We know GDOs are the way forward and Dublin received huge help with those. Dubliners know their importance which is why they try to shut down any debate about them and instead introduce pie in the sky notions about combining countries. You can be sure they'd be against giving more GDOs to those regional teams too!

Tell us one incidence where Dublin have objected to more coaching resources being allocated anywhere in the country? This is ridiculous stuff

On a side note, do counties like Mayo and Kilkenny equally split their development funding resources between hurling and football?

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

Comparison doesn’t work. This is taking over from the county system not some pointless add on competition.

There is something wrong with county teams. Fundamentally there are too many counties for too small a country.

If you are to amalgamate or split counties to get even population spreads, you'd have to split Dublin in about 5 or 6, Cork in 2, and one or two others. You'd have to amalgamate 4 or 5 small ones, particularly in the north west, and so on.

And that would still give no guarantee that amalgamated regions would be competitive. They would still have to be an even spread of games development funding and GDOs per club, as without that, splitting or amalgamating would be a complete waste of time.

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

Tell us one incidence where Dublin have objected to more coaching resources being allocated anywhere in the country? This is ridiculous stuff

On a side note, do counties like Mayo and Kilkenny equally split their development funding resources between hurling and football?

What both counties received on average between 2007 and 2018 was a pittance compared to Dublin. It would fund at most 2 GDOs in each county, if the salaries are 40k/year.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

What both counties received on average between 2007 and 2018 was a pittance compared to Dublin. It would fund at most 2 GDOs in each county, if the salaries are 40k/year.

ignore the question? in 2018 Mayo received 134,219 in funding which would equate to 3 coaches which would be 1 coach per 11,390 kids (this does not include coaches provided by Connaught directly coach/kid ratio is actually lower. Dublin received equivialnt funding for 32 full time coaches (1,3m) which is 1 coach per 9460 kids (with no extra funding from Leinster).

Just to give a break down of figures like...

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

ignore the question? (plus coaches to these counties come from provincial funding too)

You asked when did Dublin object to others getting more resources?

They have to admit that they get far more resources than everyone else first. And then admit those resources should be redistributed.

For the last couple of weeks we've have a number of people who have/had an involvement in Dublin football coming out to deny extra funding had anything to do with Dublin's success, it was all down to hard work, Jim Gavin, blah blah blah. Denial from the top to the bottom. So yes the answer is there is no willingness in Dublin to level the playing field, especially when they play dumb and pretend funding distribution doesn't matter.

And the golden generation myth has also been put to bed. There's been a significant turnover of players since 2011 and there continues to be. So we know its not a golden generation of players and that its a vastly well funded system producing the players.

One other thing made me laugh this week, Dean Rock saying he finds the Leinster championship competitive. You'd wonder what he's smoking