Changes in the GAA - super thread

salmocab

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I wouldn't be advocating a split except as a very last resort when all other efforts at creating balance have been exhausted.

Would you be ok with redistributing GDOs and games funding for example?

And don't give us some nonsense about other counties copying the Dublin model. There isn't enough money in the GAA to do this. The GAA decided to pool much of their money in Dublin games development and this is where the real imbalance has been created.

They've created a PSG of Gaelic Football with their ineptitude and bias towards Dublin.

The GAA usually have one job above all others - don't ruin your marquee sports competitions, Sam Maguire and Liam McCarthy. Unfortunately they've made a good start on ruining Sam Maguire and killed off the Leinster Championship.

Great for Dublin fans. Disastrous for the future health of the sport though. Not that most Dublin fans give a damn!

Well thanks for your warning about nonsense that really moves the debate along. I’ve said at least twice here that I favor having the money go where it does the best work. Where that is I don’t know.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So they don't need all that extra funding and GDOs so. Its population that is winning them AIs. Time to redistribute funds and GDOs to weaker counties that really need them. Dublin already have a natural advantage with their huge population, they don't need any extra help.

They are now having the GDOs in Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow. It’s called the North Leinster project.

They will work in the commuter belts where there’s loads of kids and loads of parents with wallets.

They won’t be moving GDOs to the likes of Roscommon etc because there’s no “bang for the buck” in largely rural counties.

blinding

Wouldn’t the Leinster Football championship be very competitive if Dublin were not in it ?

A good few teams in or about the same level = competitive games .

Wouldn’t the All-Ireland series be very competitive if Dublin were not in it . A good few teams in or about the same level = competitive games .

The advantage Dublin now have would be like merging Man City and Liverpool against the other Premier League teams .

Without at least some what , Competitive teams there is no competition . Without competition there is no competitive Sport ; Like the Leinster championship and to a slightly lesser degree the All Ireland series , . The attending / paying public are begining to Vote by not showing up .

Sport needs real competition . Without it , in time little or no audience !

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

They are now having the GDOs in Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow. It’s called the North Leinster project.

They will work in the commuter belts where there’s loads of kids and loads of parents with wallets.

They won’t be moving GDOs to the likes of Roscommon etc because there’s no “bang for the buck” in largely rural counties.

You have correctly identified where the GAA started to go wrong, looking for the bang for the buck.

The GAA are run by guys clueless about business. You only have to look at a number of fiascos on their watch to see this, the Sky Sports deal the latest one, but also the effort to pump up Dublin football to the max. Far from increasing interest in the sport in the general population, it has done the reverse.

The most worrying trend though is the amount of money now required, to attend games, watch it on tv (Sky Sports) or participate in a nursery for example.

The sport has become a big business but with disastrous decisions made by the top brass that are backfiring at every turn.

I hate the fact that these guys want to monetize their product at every turn and as you say go for the biggest bang for the buck. This is where the sport is being ruined. And if they did gain large revenues and ploughed it back to create more balance in the sport, fair enough. But they failed to do that.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You have correctly identified where the GAA started to go wrong, looking for the bang for the buck.

The GAA are run by guys clueless about business. You only have to look at a number of fiascos on their watch to see this, the Sky Sports deal the latest one, but also the effort to pump up Dublin football to the max. Far from increasing interest in the sport in the general population, it has done the reverse.

The most worrying trend though is the amount of money now required, to attend games, watch it on tv (Sky Sports) or participate in a nursery for example.

The sport has become a big business but with disastrous decisions made by the top brass that are backfiring at every turn.

I hate the fact that these guys want to monetize their product at every turn and as you say go for the biggest bang for the buck. This is where the sport is being ruined. And if they did gain large revenues and ploughed it back to create more balance in the sport, fair enough. But they failed to do that.

Our entire lives are built on capitalist values. The GAA are not immune.

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

Our entire lives are built on capitalist values. The GAA are not immune.

Maybe so. But the mistakes the GAA are making are related to chasing more money and then redistributing it badly.

Leinster Championship games (except the final) involving Dublin played in Croke Park is another example. The GAA and Leinster Council need the money, so most Dublin games are played there.
You'd feel sorry for the likes of Meath and Kildare. When was the last time either played Dublin in the championship at home? And if Meath for example tried to upgrade their own stadium, there be cries of "white elephant", not investing in GDOs, etc.
So they can't win.
The whole thing is a shambles.

MayoAreMagic

bruschi wrote: »

exactly. It is completely unfeasible and if it were to happen, there would need to be a massive overhaul of the entire competition, in both football and hurling. Considering how hard it is to make slight changes in competitions or games, something of this nature will never go through.

Thats not to say it shouldnt happen, but that boat sailed years and years ago. Dublin is far too big to only have one team, but it is what it is. Some counties are too small to be on their own. Realistically, the country is only really big enough for about 12 top class teams in either code and if you go down that route, then you go down the professional route. The entire fabric of the GAA would change if Dublin is split.

Far from unfeasible in fact. Very straightforward tbh. Split the count into north and south based on playing figures and potential playing figures. Appoint a manager. That's it really... It is far less extreme a change than seperating the entire country into 2 tiers, and that seems to be going to be in place within a few months...

The reality is, the path they have gone down means they will have little other option as the inter county game will die a death. They are hardly going to start starving kids of coaching in dublin so the only other real option is create two dublin teams. At present the north dublin team would probably still win the all ireland, while the south team would be in the super 8s.

salmocab

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Far from unfeasible in fact. Very straightforward tbh. Split the count into north and south based on playing figures and potential playing figures. Appoint a manager. That's it really... It is far less extreme a change than seperating the entire country into 2 tiers, and that seems to be going to be in place within a few months...

Do you really believe it would be as easy as appointing a new manager? What about the hurlers, the underage structures should they be split too or are you happy they’re not dominating so don’t bother you? Utter nonsense I’ll say it again it won’t be happening, it’s not on the horizon it’s a hope that some people have.

bruschi

Dots1982 wrote: »

They are now having the GDOs in Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow. It’s called the North Leinster project.

They will work in the commuter belts where there’s loads of kids and loads of parents with wallets.

They won’t be moving GDOs to the likes of Roscommon etc because there’s no “bang for the buck” in largely rural counties.

East Leinster project, and Wexford are also in it.

I'm not sure it is about bang for their buck though for this one. Maybe for Dublin, cash in on the population and get more people involved. But parents with wallets really arent going to help the GAA in this east Leinster program. They will get into clubs and I suppose long term get into county following etc but I dont think revenue off kids parents is a driving factor. To rehash the oft used phrase on here, it is about participation and increasing the levels of players in clubs. The project started out mainly as an urban area incentive and has over the 3 years since its inception increased and offered to rural clubs.

However, it is still highly restrictive, needing set criteria to obtain partial or full possession of a GPO and not available to all clubs. Clubs are applying and getting a share of a GPO, but I think the next wave of GPOs employed will see a pause of further investment for a couple of years. Could be wrong on that, but just the feeling I'm getting from hierarchy on it that whilst it is great it is being rolled out, its probably going to be on a standstill and operate only with clubs currently set up with it or about to set up. We'll see.

And as I said previously, it is about 15 years behind where Dublin are for a lot of counties/clubs.

MayoAreMagic

salmocab wrote: »

Do you really believe it would be as easy as appointing a new manager? What about the hurlers, the underage structures should they be split too or are you happy they’re not dominating so don’t bother you? Utter nonsense I’ll say it again it won’t be happening, it’s not on the horizon it’s a hope that some people have.

Hurlers can be left alone. The underage structures continue, they just either end up playing for dublin north or south.
You seem to want to make it seem impossible, when it isnt... The split was already mooted in the 00s so I dont see how you think it is such a leap. In fact the cynic in me wouldnt be surprised if all this money was pumped into dublin with splitting the county being the ultimate goal. It would make a hell of a lot of sense of a lot of things, and we know how much the gaa would like the idea of filling the hill twice twice as many times...

salmocab

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Hurlers can be left alone. The underage structures continue, they just either end up playing for dublin north or south.
You seem to want to make it seem impossible, when it isnt... The split was already mooted in the 00s so I dont see how you think it is such a leap. In fact the cynic in me wouldnt be surprised if all this money was pumped into dublin with splitting the county being the ultimate goal. It would make a hell of a lot of sense of a lot of things...

But surely the hurlers are benefiting from ‘financial doping’ as much as the footballers and have all the same advantages.
Splitting the footballers would require extra funding. Just because something was mooted before doesn’t mean a thing.

blinding

Without Realistic competition there is no competitive sport .

MayoAreMagic

salmocab wrote: »

But surely the hurlers are benefiting from ‘financial doping’ as much as the footballers and have all the same advantages.
Splitting the footballers would require extra funding. Just because something was mooted before doesn’t mean a thing.

It does and they are. But, similar to pre 2010 in the football, as long as it isnt having a huge effect on the game as a whole, the rest of the country would probably be willing to turn a blind eye, because they are reasonable people and they are happy to see the game developing somewhere new. If they started winning 8 out of 10 liam mccarthys and knocking the thing out of kilter then obviously it might need to be revisited.

Of course you would get people wheeling out the tired auld, 'yiz are only annoyed because youz cant bleedin beat uz' defence, but in fairness any reasonable person can see through that. That argument reminds me of the time mike tyson took a bite out of holyfields ear, and then started trying to goad him into boxing on...

ToBeFrank123

salmocab wrote: »

Do you really believe it would be as easy as appointing a new manager? What about the hurlers, the underage structures should they be split too or are you happy they’re not dominating so don’t bother you? Utter nonsense I’ll say it again it won’t be happening, it’s not on the horizon it’s a hope that some people have.

The population of Dublin is predicted to increase exponentially.
The GAA will continue to chase the population and the money (badly).
If current trends continue, including with the funding to Dublin, the championship will be so skewed in their favour that splitting them might be the only option.
Something radical will have to happen to return some competitiveness and make the championship something other than a coronation.

The less bad option is redistribute funds and GDOS. If this doesn't happen, then it will be time to move to the nuclear option which is split Dublin. Or else watch the sport die a death at IC level.

The GAA have created this mess. Its up to them to solve it.

MayoAreMagic

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The less bad option is redistribute funds and GDOS. If this doesn't happen, then it will be time to move to the nuclear option which is split Dublin. Or else watch the sport die a death at IC level.

The GAA have created this mess. Its up to them to solve it.

The issue with that though, is that pulling the funds means the kids in dublin would be starved of coaching. I think that is the wrong way to go tbh. Dublin themselves would actually be better off splitting the county and continuing to coach their kids to a higher level than doing that, as they still would have 700 odd thousand of a population in each which is still massive. That is much better than having massive numbers but none of them coached to a high level. Not to mention the fact that they wouldnt be reaching their potential. Id be if the thinking of getting every child to reach their potential first and foremost, and then making the teams even from that point.

Dots1982

I get that there’s a lot of bull**** spoken about Dublin and claims that it’s all volunteers etc but ultimately splitting Dublin won’t fix the fact that Laois can’t compete with Kildare or Meath anymore and that problem will only get worst.

Splitting Dublin will also bring down the standard of the competition. Watching Dublin is fascinating in that it’s 15 truly elite footballers always playing with them. My county Kildare despite being a strong county can only put 5 truly elite players on the field at most.

Counties such as Wexford have none. Counties like that are adding nothing to the competition.

I would prefer to have 15 players on every team that are truly elite and have 10-12 of them playing against each other.

So I would prefer amalgamations. There are too many teams in the championship that add almost nothing to it. There are two many limited footballers getting to wear county jerseys.

That’s being cold hearted and commerce-minded about it.

ToBeFrank123

Dots1982 wrote: »

I get that there’s a lot of bull**** spoken about Dublin and claims that it’s all volunteers etc but ultimately splitting Dublin won’t fix the fact that Laois can’t compete with Kildare or Meath anymore and that problem will only get worst.

Splitting Dublin will also bring down the standard of the competition. Watching Dublin is fascinating in that it’s 15 truly elite footballers always playing with them. My county Kildare despite being a strong county can only put 5 truly elite players on the field at most.

Counties such as Wexford have none. Counties like that are adding nothing to the competition.

I would prefer to have 15 players on every team that are truly elite and have 10-12 of them playing against each other.

So I would prefer amalgamations. There are too many teams in the championship that add almost nothing to it. There are two many limited footballers getting to wear county jerseys.

That’s being cold hearted and commerce-minded about it.

Wexford were competitive up to about 7 or 8 years ago and fell away. Its hard for them to compete with the resources of Dublin at the moment.

However, where do you stop with throwing counties out of the championship and that's exactly what you are advocating. Some counties like Cavan, Down, Armagh, are on the fringe of making it big and with more resources long term could be at the top table again. But with a two tier or amalgamation, they'd fall back again.

Amalgamating counties and splitting them are effectively the same thing for supporters of those counties. It means an end to that counties participation in the championship. So if you are not in favour of splitting Dublin, you shouldn't be advocating amalgamations.

My own view is splitting Dublin should be the nuclear option only if the GAA and Dublin refuse to make a serious effort at creating a balanced playing field. Funding is part of that, but simple things like Dublin playing Leinster counties on their home ground in the championship would also help.

MayoAreMagic

Dots1982 wrote: »

I get that there’s a lot of bull**** spoken about Dublin and claims that it’s all volunteers etc but ultimately splitting Dublin won’t fix the fact that Laois can’t compete with Kildare or Meath anymore and that problem will only get worst.

Splitting Dublin will also bring down the standard of the competition. Watching Dublin is fascinating in that it’s 15 truly elite footballers always playing with them. My county Kildare despite being a strong county can only put 5 truly elite players on the field at most.

Counties such as Wexford have none. Counties like that are adding nothing to the competition.

I would prefer to have 15 players on every team that are truly elite and have 10-12 of them playing against each other.

So I would prefer amalgamations. There are too many teams in the championship that add almost nothing to it. There are two many limited footballers getting to wear county jerseys.

That’s being cold hearted and commerce-minded about it.

But who said it would?
I dont see why splitting Dublin has to fix every single issue in the gaa today for it to be a runner. The mark didn't fix every ill in the game, but that doesnt mean it wasnt a good move.
It would fix the most pressing issue that is for sure. It would probably give a lot of counties in leinster in particular but not limited to leinster, a new level of impetus also. The county being split would have 2 teams capable of reaching at least the super 8s even this year, with one probably good enough to win the thing out on their day. That is enough for me tbh. There are no losers.

Would it be enough to make laois as good as meath? Unlikely, but hard to know for sure. However they would definitely have an infinitely better chance of matching them in that scenario than they have of matching dublin now. The reality is the rise of dublin in leinster has coincided with all the other leinster teams dropping off. I have no doubt that the lack of fairness on display has had a hand in that, so that would suggest that the current setup is affecting the standard of football outside of dublin also

Dr. Bre

India have a bigger population than Ireland but who would win at soccer? I’d like to think Ireland!

blinding

Dr. Bre wrote: »

India have a bigger population than Ireland but who would win at soccer? I’d like to think Ireland!

Cricket on the other hand !

ToBeFrank123

Dr. Bre wrote: »

India have a bigger population than Ireland but who would win at soccer? I’d like to think Ireland!

They've never played each other and India have no real history or tradition in soccer.

A better comparison would be Ireland v Germany.

ToBeFrank123

An even better comparison would be Ireland vs a Germany team handed tens of millions by FIFA to improve soccer in their country despite being relatively wealthy themselves and with the second best record in International soccer.

blinding

Its a wonder the Dubs don’t set up a Premier League Soccer Team with all the Resources that they have ?

salmocab

blinding wrote: »

Its a wonder the Dubs don’t set up a Premier League Soccer Team with all the Resources that they have ?

It really isn’t

blinding

salmocab wrote: »

It really isn’t

They have enough dosh to set up Sport Franchises;)

salmocab

blinding wrote: »

They have enough dosh to set up Sport Franchises;)

No they don’t and premier league doesn’t have franchises

RoyalCelt

salmocab wrote: »

Who was it telling us the Dublin hurlers are dining at the top table?

They are. The top table in hurling is quite large and very competitive. A complete contrast to the **** show we have in football.

salmocab

RoyalCelt wrote: »

They are. The top table in hurling is quite large and very competitive. A complete contrast to the **** show we have in football.

Now that’s just not true. They are not at the top table.

ToBeFrank123

The Dublin hurlers are probably in a similar position to the Dublin footballers of 10 years ago.
Gradually improving, capable of some very good performances in Leinster, but still also capable of collapsing when someone has a go at them. They will certainly learn from the Laois defeat and it will make them stronger. They have time and games development funding on their side, more so than traditional counties. I wouldn't be surprised if they win another Leinster in the next 3 years and an AI in the next 5.

salmocab

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The Dublin hurlers are probably in a similar position to the Dublin footballers of 10 years ago.
Gradually improving, capable of some very good performances in Leinster, but still also capable of collapsing when someone has a go at them. They will certainly learn from the Laois defeat and it will make them stronger. They have time and games development funding on their side, more so than traditional counties. I wouldn't be surprised if they win another Leinster in the next 3 years and an AI in the next 5.

They are nothing like the Dublin footballers of 10 years ago. The footballers kept coming up short on the big days, the hurlers have no consistency and don’t look to be actually improving much at all in the last few years. The league win was the high water mark for them.