Henry Cavill forced to apologize for #metoo comments

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Basically you look at women telling their stories of being abused and raped but instead of saying, this isn't right, women shouldn't be attacked and abused regularly, you're saying, let's doubt all their stories.

Hold on a second. I didn't say any of that. But let's be clear here. Unfounded accusations hurt people, and do nothing to improve the system. In fact, when I suggest that women should be submitting their accusations and be investigated, you become offended.

You don't like the current system regarding rape cases. So seek to change it. And that change will only happen when women submit their cases of harassment, sexual assault and rape to a legal authority... so that they can be investigated, the matter recorded and entered into statistics, and better research performed, thus leading to changes in the policing & legal systems.

It's a twisted way of viewing things. Women aren't all liars, the shocking number of stories about women getting attacked, raped, abused isn't just a conspiracy by all women to make men look bad. It's fact, not 100% of it but a very high percentage.

Yes, it is a twisted way of viewing things, and it's not my way. But it seems you're not willing to engage in a rational conversation on the subject and deal with what I've actually written.

Isn't that what we should be worried about? Making sure rapists get punished and face justice.

Providing a fair system where guilt is proven. That's what I am interested in. Gender Equality in the eyes of the law. Innocent until proven guilty. That's the right system. I'm all in favor of harsh sentencing for convicted rapists, and for those who are proven to make false claims.

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hold on a second. I didn't say any of that. But let's be clear here. Unfounded accusations hurt people, and do nothing to improve the system. In fact, when I suggest that women should be submitting their accusations and be investigated, you become offended.

You don't like the current system regarding rape cases. So seek to change it. And that change will only happen when women submit their cases of harassment, sexual assault and rape to a legal authority... so that they can be investigated, the matter recorded and entered into statistics, and better research performed, thus leading to changes in the policing & legal systems.



Yes, it is a twisted way of viewing things, and it's not my way. But it seems you're not willing to engage in a rational conversation on the subject and deal with what I've actually written.



Providing a fair system where guilt is proven. That's what I am interested in. Gender Equality in the eyes of the law. Innocent until proven guilty. That's the right system. I'm all in favor of harsh sentencing for convicted rapists, and for those who are proven to make false claims.

What hurts people is when rapists avoid prison or don't get long sentences. When women are called sluts and liars while their attackers are welcomed back into society.
You're ignoring the fact that it's extremely difficult to get a rape conviction. Women do report assaults but get vilified. This is a serious situation.

All the women telling their stories in the metoo campaign weren't liars. It shows how common it is for women to be attacked. Thousands upon thousands of women. It's scary and that's what we should be focused on. Not doubting their stories.

I give up. You're not addressing what I wrote and instead, just repeating the same stuff.

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I give up. You're not addressing what I wrote and instead, just repeating the same stuff.

It's important. We're all in this together. Women shouldn't have to put up with being attacked and abused. As we saw with metoo, it's a regular occurrence. We should be fighting to stop this. That's all I'm saying, how can anyone disagree with that?

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

It's important. We're all in this together. Women shouldn't have to put up with being attacked and abused. As we saw with metoo, it's a regular occurrence. We should be fighting to stop this. That's all I'm saying, how can anyone disagree with that?

And your posting attitude is exactly the reason that metoo gets such criticism.

If you don't understand why I'm saying that, read back over my posts and yours, and consider what actual progress was made between us. Instead of progressing towards a useful conversation, I'm giving up and no longer responding to you. Metoo is going to receive the same reaction. There's simply no space for a rational and fair discussion.

Calhoun

Of course he was right, I would be very careful if I was in a position a high profile position on Hollywood.

He probably should have stir cleared of it though because you can't have a rational conversation at the moment , it's what happens when the court of internet opinion takes over from law and order.

Case in point is the white knighting we are seeing in relation to the topic.

Chris_Heilong

He should not have apologised as he said nothing that was not true.

Calhoun

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

He should not have apologised as he said nothing that was not true.

He had to, or his career would have taken a hit.

Pac1Man

I would love to be metoo'd right now.

Pero_Bueno

major bill wrote: »

Life is better when you delete Twitter, Facebook and all other social media as you then realise the world isn't gone overly PC it's just the internet has been taken over by a bunch of overly sensitive eejets.

Innocent comment, shouldn't have to apologise.

Exactly, and soon someone will be brave enough to REFUSE to apologise, if you take offence it's your problem.

I could be offended by a blue sky but noone is gonna be placating me over it.

And then when this person refuses others will follow.

Then people will realise social media is evil and stop using it, and we'll go back to using the internet for porn and discussing star trek like it was designed for ... well maybe not that part.

RayCun

"In fact, have a look at some of the false rape claims within this year... yup, proven to be false. But consider the lack of evidence involved, and yet, the claims still made it as far as a judge."

As you probably know, the claims were *not* proven to be false. There was insufficient evidence to convict, because a criminal conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt. That is an extremely high bar, when a key question in a case is about consent, and that consent or refusal is unlikely by it's nature to have independent witnesses.

But yeah, the problem is women making **** up...

RobbingBandit

Not very super of him maybe the pornstar moustache went to his brain.

FTA69

No such thing as nuance anymore. Any slight deviation from an accepted orthodoxy and it's online pileons and mass-signed letters calling for your head. Doesn't matter if your intentions were good, you were a bit hamfisted or unfortunate or if you had been taken up wrong - you're literally the worst person who ever lived and you need to be flagellated for transgressing.

The tone used is unreal at times, "you are LITERALLY f*cking disgusting!" etc, it can be incredibly disconcerting when large groups of people are screeching abuse at you online suggesting you're a borderline rapist and woman basher for some relatively innocuous comment or opinion. I've seen it happen.

This rubbish originated in US campus politics and has unfortunately spread over here and dominated some sections of the left to the point it jeopardises that brand of politics as a whole. And it has no bearing on reality. If you came to my union branch meeting shouting about "literal trash" and "safer spaces" the people there would think you need to be committed and would probably put you out the door.

RayCun

Yeah, the problem with Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby was that they deviated slightly from impossibly strict standards. The jails are full of people wrongly convicted of rape. There are no men in positions of power any more, because they have been overthrown by hordes of women screaming that they looked at someone funny.

RayCun

" it has no bearing on reality"

You find yourself getting worked up about things that you think are happening on American campuses, something you have no direct experience of. You don't see people looking for safe spaces at your union meetings, but you are sure it is happening _somewhere_, and the idea appals you.

FTA69

RayCun wrote: »

" it has no bearing on reality"

You find yourself getting worked up about things that you think are happening on American campuses, something you have no direct experience of. You don't see people looking for safe spaces at your union meetings, but you are sure it is happening _somewhere_, and the idea appals you.

See above for an example, rowing about points I never even made.

I said the type of shrill denunciations and call-out culture stuff originated in US campus politics and then spread to sections of the left. I don't give a f*ck about US colleges believe me. I do give a f*ck when an hour of a political meeting is spent debating whether we should book an event that doesn't have gender neutral jacks or when a good event later gets denounced all over social media for "toxic masculinity" because someone said "c*nt" at some stage. Or when a community facing left wing boxing club gets new members in who then start demanding Safer Spaces policies and moaning about everything and anything.

And speaking of unions, a friend of mine was recently bullied off her own picket line by protestors who accused her of hating trans people for having the temerity to attend a meeting on the Gender recognition Act.

So unfortunately, this sort of utter waffle is actually having a detrimental effect on actual organising and discredits left wing politics in general. I see this sh*t in real life on a regular basis so I will criticise it from a position of experience thanks very much.

RayCun

You know what else has an effect on left wing organizing? When people want to be active, but their concerns are dismissed as a distraction from real politics. Sexism and racism have a history of being put on the long finger until after the revolution.

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And your posting attitude is exactly the reason that metoo gets such criticism.

If you don't understand why I'm saying that, read back over my posts and yours, and consider what actual progress was made between us. Instead of progressing towards a useful conversation, I'm giving up and no longer responding to you. Metoo is going to receive the same reaction. There's simply no space for a rational and fair discussion.

Rational and fair discussion? What are you on about? All I've said is that the stories from women about all the attacks and abuse is really sickening and disturbing. And that we should be fighting against it. What is wrong with that? Do you not agree with that?

I think maybe you should read back over the posts and stop doubting women's stories.

professore

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Rational and fair discussion? What are you on about? All I've said is that the stories from women about all the attacks and abuse is really sickening and disturbing. And that we should be fighting against it. What is wrong with that? Do you not agree with that?

Fighting how? A rape trial is still just as difficult and harrowing to go through. All I see is women outdoing each other in the media bashing men. No actual concrete change other than its now OK to say all men are rapists.

YFlyer

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I constantly joke with a mate of mine that if I was to ever somehow manage to sleep with someone again, I'll have to record them giving me permission to have sex with them. Scary thing is, it's a likely requirement these days.

Ok, I may be over-exaggerating a little... Just a little though.

The recording will get you in sh.it.

DONTMATTER

Where did I say you can?

What I'm saying is that the thousands upon thousands of stories are not all made up. You can't just say 'prove it' and not take any of it on board.
This metoo movement gave women an opportunity to speak about what they go through on a regular occurrence. From rapes to assaults to being hassled by groups of men.
I find it really sad and disturbing that so many women have to go through this. It shows that it's not just some oddball freaks but many men engage in rapey behavior when they have an opportunity.
The metoo movement has exposed this and instead of fighting against it, we should be fighting for change and not have women continue to have to put up with this.

FTA69

RayCun wrote: »

You know what else has an effect on left wing organizing? When people want to be active, but their concerns are dismissed as a distraction from real politics. Sexism and racism have a history of being put on the long finger until after the revolution.

Absolutely true. However confronting sexism etc doesn't then mean we have to indulge every expression of individualised middle class identity b*llocks either, especially when that utterly paralyses a given collective's ability to work toma common goal and appeal to ordinary people.

The only way to fight sexism and racism is via a working class mass movement aimed at changing the structure of the society in which we live. And that won't come about via jumping up and down over a Tube-map complex of ever-increasing identities and oppressions. Call that type of stuff whatever you want, but it sure as f*ck isn't socialist organising anyway.

DONTMATTER

professore wrote: »

Fighting how? A rape trial is still just as difficult and harrowing to go through. All I see is women outdoing each other in the media bashing men. No actual concrete change other than its now OK to say all men are rapists.

I don't really follow many media stuff. Who has said that all men are rapists? Maybe they said most rapists are men? This is true.
Obviously nothing can be done when a rape has been committed but we should be fighting to stop other things.
Such as if we see men acting weird and hassling women on nights out, pestering them on the streets, making rape jokes, all these kind of things.
We should be fighting to make things safe for women. There's nothing wrong with that. This is not men bashing. It's rapist bashing.

professore

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Rational and fair discussion? What are you on about? All I've said is that the stories from women about all the attacks and abuse is really sickening and disturbing. And that we should be fighting against it. What is wrong with that? Do you not agree with that?

I think maybe you should read back over the posts and stop doubting women's stories.

I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts.

DONTMATTER, you're a broken record at this stage repeating the same stuff for pages and 100% ignoring everything that's being said to you so that you get past this glitch and actually engage in conversation.

Painful to read. Really just a big pile of vomit of emotions and no logic or reason.

The Bishop Basher

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I think maybe you should read back over the posts and stop doubting women's stories.

I stay away from FB, Twitter and Instagram to avoid this kind of crazy but it seems to be finding it’s way onto boards more frequently

Please help me understand why we should automatically believe anonymous strangers on the internet ?

Especially when so many of them are clearly nut jobs..

DONTMATTER

professore wrote: »

I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts.

So the thousands upon thousands of women are all to be doubted? It's all just a big conspiracy?

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

DONTMATTER, you're a broken record at this stage repeating the same stuff for pages and 100% ignoring everything that's being said to you so that you get past this glitch and actually engage in conversation.

Painful to read. Really just a big pile of vomit of emotions and no logic or reason.

I've made 8 posts on this thread. If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?

RayCun

RayCun wrote: »

You know what else has an effect on left wing organizing? When people want to be active, but their concerns are dismissed as a distraction from real politics. Sexism and racism have a history of being put on the long finger until after the revolution.

Yup, I agree, they do have a history of being treated such... but not anymore(although that history is going back well before two decades now). I really don't get this ignoring of the changes in modern society. The western world has moved on away from the past. Both sexism and racism (more sexism, mind) have the attention of the public, and the media. Virtually every week we can see some new equality initiative (for women), some article about discrimination, etc. Not so much about racism, since it's not really such an issue in Ireland.

And yet, in spite of all the declarations for equality with criticisms about male dominated work spaces (no reference to female ones), gender quotas, better legal framework, etc........ And In spite of all of this, sexism is apparently being put on the long finger, being ignored, etc. It's pretty obvious when it comes to womens rights or issues, nothing is ever enough.

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I've made 8 posts on this thread. If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?

Quote those posts that say women shouldn't be believed.

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I've made 8 posts on this thread. If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?

DONTMATTER

Rennaws wrote: »

I stay away from FB, Twitter and Instagram to avoid this kind of crazy but it seems to be finding it’s way onto boards more frequently

Please help me understand why we should automatically believe anonymous strangers on the internet ?

Especially when so many of them are clearly nut jobs..

Maybe it's easier for you to believe they're all nut jobs instead of facing reality.
Women shared so many stories of the abuse they have received, not just online. Have you never spoken to your mam, your sister, your female friends about this stuff?
Every woman I have spoken to about this have instances where they were assaulted, felt up against their wishes, some have been raped.
You mightn't want to believe strangers but surely you don't think those close to you are all making it up?

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quote those posts that say women shouldn't be believed.

There's one just up the page even!!!!

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Alright, you can pretend you don't hear the women's stories and pretend they're all liars all you want but that doesn't mean normal, decent people shouldn't be fighting against it.

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

There's one just up the page even!!!!

Where?

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Alright, you can pretend you don't hear the women's stories and pretend they're all liars all you want but that doesn't mean normal, decent people shouldn't be fighting against it.

You really are incapable of reading/understanding what other posters have written, without twisting it to suit yourself.... Amazing really. Scary, but amazing.

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where?

"I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts."

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You really are incapable of reading/understanding what other posters have written, without twisting it to suit yourself.... Amazing really. Scary, but amazing.

The scary thing is what women have gone through and continue to go through. I just don't get what you're disagreeing with me about? Many women have been attacked/assaulted/hassled by men. This is fact and we should be doing something to put an end to this. That's all I've been saying, what can you possibly have against that?

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

"I will doubt anyone's stories. People lie all the time for all sorts of reasons. That's why we have courts."

And that got described by you as "If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?"..

Do you really stand by that? Is that poster saying women shouldn't be believed?

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And that got described by you as "If people keep repeating that women shouldn't be believed then why can't I repeat that they should?"..

Do you really stand by that? Is that poster saying women shouldn't be believed?

Well he's saying he doubts the thousands of women who have come forward with their stories and just tells them to prove it.
That's exactly my point, instead of doubting women we should be supporting them!

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Well he's saying he doubts the thousands of women who have come forward with their stories and just tells them to prove it.
That's exactly my point, instead of doubting women we should be supporting them!

When your mother told you "Don't believe everything your hear.", was she telling you to not believe women who say they've been sexually assaulted? Did you confront her?

If that sounds like puerile logic to you, then it's because it's familiar to you. You're using it incessantly.

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The scary thing is what women have gone through and continue to go through. I just don't get what you're disagreeing with me about? Many women have been attacked/assaulted/hassled by men. This is fact and we should be doing something to put an end to this. That's all I've been saying, what can you possibly have against that?

Ok. I have some time, so I'll bite.

Women have full equality per the law in this country and society has shifted its perception regarding harassment, sexual assault, and rape to, more than, compensate for those changes. We have sexual harassment laws in the workplace. We have harassment laws regarding social interactions, and we have laws to protect women in pretty much every area of our lives. There are also heaps of services for women both state and privately funded to help women in need.

Those laws cannot be effective if women do not make use of them. Without women going to the Gardai to make statements, the law cannot be implemented to protect them. It really is that simple. As things stand, we have unofficial claims by women through the metoo campaign, or claims like your own posts about huge amounts of harassment or abuse, but no way to confirm them. Why? Because these women refuse to face reality.

The sad truth is that many people like yourself are living in the past. We haven't had an environment of ignoring women's claims in 20-30 years. If anything, the current social environment is very favorable to women's claims, and officials are more likely to trust the word of women over men. Even before these changes, there was a tendency to accept women as being victims even when there was no evidence to support it. This can be seen in Domestic violence cases where the male was usually considered the aggressor, even when there was clear evidence that the woman was.

Now, you can keep repeating that there are huge numbers of rapes or harassment of women... but it will be dismissed as pure drama because the statistics don't support you. There hasn't been a huge upsurge in such crimes against women, compared to previous years. We have a society that is extremely protective of women, and while there is a minority of men, who break the law to hurt women, they're still very much a minority.

And the law is effectively dealing with that minority. Until the women of the metoo campaign come forward, and have their claims investigated then nothing will change. Making dramatic claims isn't going to help, because they haven't been verified.

Not going to write more, because it's all in my first few posts to you...

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When your mother told you "Don't believe everything your hear.", was she telling you to not believe women who say they've been sexually assaulted? Did you confront her?

If that sounds like puerile logic to you, then it's because it's familiar to you. You're using it incessantly.

Eh? You asked where posters were saying that women shouldn't be believed, I pointed out one on that very page.
Look, we could go down the road of saying that every single story that the thousands of women have come forward with needs to be brought to court or we can just accept that they are not all liars.
I find it very weird that the reaction from people here is to object to women talking about their ordeals, instead of objecting to the men who have put them through it.

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Well he's saying he doubts the thousands of women who have come forward with their stories and just tells them to prove it.
That's exactly my point, instead of doubting women we should be supporting them!

And they are supported. There are procedures in place under the law to process such statements and have them investigated. But you're looking for more than that. You seem to want men to be arrested, and convicted on hearsay.

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Eh? You asked where posters were saying that women shouldn't be believed, I pointed out one on that very page.
Look, we could go down the road of saying that every single story that the thousands of women have come forward with needs to be brought to court or we can just accept that they are not all liars.
I find it very weird that the reaction from people here is to object to women talking about their ordeals, instead of objecting to the men who have put them through it.

You just cannot stop lying and extrapolating major injustices from basic statements. How you think you're fooling us with blatant lies is insane. We are not stupid.

I've zero interest in continuing talking to you. And real feminists have zero interest in having someone like you on your side. You are the insanity that infests every cause.

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok. I have some time, so I'll bite.

Women have full equality per the law in this country and society has shifted its perception regarding harassment, sexual assault, and rape to, more than, compensate for those changes. We have sexual harassment laws in the workplace. We have harassment laws regarding social interactions, and we have laws to protect women in pretty much every area of our lives. There are also heaps of services for women both state and privately funded to help women in need.

Those laws cannot be effective if women do not make use of them. Without women going to the Gardai to make statements, the law cannot be implemented to protect them. It really is that simple. As things stand, we have unofficial claims by women through the metoo campaign, or claims like your own posts about huge amounts of harassment or abuse, but no way to confirm them. Why? Because these women refuse to face reality.

The sad truth is that many people like yourself are living in the past. We haven't had an environment of ignoring women's claims in 20-30 years. If anything, the current social environment is very favorable to women's claims, and officials are more likely to trust the word of women over men. Even before these changes, there was a tendency to accept women as being victims even when there was no evidence to support it. This can be seen in Domestic violence cases where the male was usually considered the aggressor, even when there was clear evidence that the woman was.

Now, you can keep repeating that there are huge numbers of rapes or harassment of women... but it will be dismissed as pure drama because the statistics don't support you. There hasn't been a huge upsurge in such crimes against women, compared to previous years. We have a society that is extremely protective of women, and while there is a minority of men, who break the law to hurt women, they're still very much a minority.

And the law is effectively dealing with that minority. Until the women of the metoo campaign come forward, and have their claims investigated then nothing will change. Making dramatic claims isn't going to help, because they haven't been verified.

Not going to write more, because it's all in my first few posts to you...

Unfortunately the reality is different to what you have posted. Women do report assaults and rapes etc. They have to go through court proceedings, face their attacker and mostly see them either get away with their crime or get very short sentences.
Also some have to face accusations that they were asking for it or that they are sluts while the rapists get welcomed back into society. I've said all this to you.
Where did I say an upsurge? I said that a huge amount of women suffer this. That's a fact, if you deny that then you should be dismissed.
The metoo campaign wasn't just about being raped. It was about other forms of assault also and being harassed by men. Not all of this should go to court but none of it should be happening. Women aren't making this up, it happens all the time.
We should be all against this, I don't get what your issue is? You never answered my question on why you are against trying to make things safe for women?

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And they are supported. There are procedures in place under the law to process such statements and have them investigated. But you're looking for more than that. You seem to want men to be arrested, and convicted on hearsay.

Where did I say that?

DONTMATTER

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You just cannot stop lying and extrapolating major injustices from basic statements. How you think you're fooling us with blatant lies is insane. We are not stupid.

I've zero interest in continuing talking to you. And real feminists have zero interest in having someone like you on your side. You are the insanity that infests every cause.

I really don't get what the problem is here. It's now insane to say you believe women's stories of being assaulted and you think something should be done about it? That's what I'm saying, how is that insane?

DONTMATTER

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Where did I say that?

Seem to... I didn't say that you had openly said it.

But read over your own posts again. There is a strong trend that women should be believed in spite of not going through official channels, and being investigated. EDIT: Ahh.. forget it. In hindsight, I'm wondering why I'm bothering responding to you again.

DONTMATTER

Deleted User wrote: »

Seem to... I didn't say that you had openly said it.

But read over your own posts again. There is a strong trend that women should be believed in spite of not going through official channels, and being investigated. EDIT: Ahh.. forget it. In hindsight, I'm wondering why I'm bothering responding to you again.

I'm actually wondering why I'm bothering responding to you! You refuse to answer any questions I've put to you and you have attempted to put words in my mouth.
I'm saying that instead of doubting the stories that came out in the metoo campaign, we should be doing something to change the culture which allows women be treated in this manner.