Ryanair Depressurisation

goingnowhere

billy few mates wrote: »

The low level flight also suggests possible structural damage with a one off approval to ferry for repair but that's just my guess...

Only one AC pack working? FL 250 Max so?

billy few mates

Actually just thought possible single pack operation afterwards.

plodder

Irish Independent: Ryanair passengers on flight that made emergency landing in Germany planning to sue airline

Hard to see at this point the basis for any claim of negligence. What did they expect would happen in the circumstances?

billy few mates

plodder wrote: »

Irish Independent: Ryanair passengers on flight that made emergency landing in Germany planning to sue airline

Hard to see at this point the basis for any claim of negligence. What did they expect would happen in the circumstances?

It depends what caused the depressurisation...

devnull

plodder wrote: »

Irish Independent: Ryanair passengers on flight that made emergency landing in Germany planning to sue airline

Hard to see at this point the basis for any claim of negligence. What did they expect would happen in the circumstances?

Well, without the aviation knowledge that we have here they probably didn't expect it to happen how it did, they probably don't know the stuff that we know about normal practice in these situations, or the fact that the pilots made the decisions they did because it was in the best interests of those on board.

Communicating is important but safety comes first and if ever the former could impact focus on the later, then it has to take a back seat and that it seems is what the pilots done because not to do so could have had far reaching consequence if it led to hypoxia.

To be fairly blunt about it, it's better to be talking about the worst 10 minutes of your life after the event and saying you thought you could have died than being dead and it being the last 10 minutes of your life, which it may well have been had the pilots not acted how they did.

The crew did what they were supposed to do and whilst it was traumatic for everyone who was involved, but the outcome that they had was the least worst that it could have been in this situation. Doubt any court will find in their favour unless the investigation turns up something we don't know about at present.

plodder

billy few mates wrote: »

It depends what caused the depressurisation...

I don't see how they could know that at this point. Is the whole thing predicated on a fishing expedition through Ryanair's maintenance records maybe? It's one thing to launch an action like this after an enquiry has found some deficiency in procedures, but why now?

Nonoperational

plodder wrote: »

Irish Independent: Ryanair passengers on flight that made emergency landing in Germany planning to sue airline

Hard to see at this point the basis for any claim of negligence. What did they expect would happen in the circumstances?

Compo chasing degenerates. Nothing more.

Mebuntu

“The plane was going down and we didn’t know what was happening."

See below.

Mebuntu wrote: »

This incident highlights yet again the inadequacy of the pre-flight safety announcement on all airlines regarding loss of cabin pressure. The deployment of the masks and how to put them on is covered but the emergency descent is not mentioned at all.

When the masks drop it is, inevitably, a frightening experience but, at least, the passengers will have been warned in advance. If it happens, your mind would automatically be 100% fixed on putting on the mask and ensuring if you have children that their masks go on properly. What you haven't been told in advance is that the aircraft will have to immediately commence a rapid descent so it is no surprise to hear that some passengers thought the end was nigh when the "dive" occurred. If they had been informed in advance they would know that this rapid descent is just normal procedure being followed.

I have never heard any useful explanation why this is so.

faoiarvok

plodder wrote: »

Irish Independent: Ryanair passengers on flight that made emergency landing in Germany planning to sue airline

Hard to see at this point the basis for any claim of negligence. What did they expect would happen in the circumstances?

Anyone know what Ryanair’s usual strategy would be for something like this? Settle and avoid court, or fight it to avoid a precedent?

Would be interesting to see it go to court and what the outcome would be.

Asking what Ryanair are likely to do rather than people’s opinions on what they should do, I think I know those already!

Noxegon

Mebuntu wrote: »

This incident highlights yet again the inadequacy of the pre-flight safety announcement on all airlines regarding loss of cabin pressure.

That won’t help much when most passengers don’t actually listen to the briefing.

FWIW, Turkish Airlines’ one includes the words “brace for impact” which I found a little startling.

killbillvol2

Noxegon wrote: »

Mebuntu wrote: »

This incident highlights yet again the inadequacy of the pre-flight safety announcement on all airlines regarding loss of cabin pressure.

That won’t help much when most passengers don’t actually listen to the briefing.

FWIW, Turkish Airlines’ one includes the words “brace for impact” which I found a little startling.

Sri Lankan includes 'brace for impact' and 'get down, stay down'. No messing there!

Irish Steve

I think it would be fair to point out at this time that there are 2 different issues here. If the masks are deployed, that means the cabin altitude has gone above 10,000 Ft, which is obviously going to generate warnings and get the attention of the crew. It does not automatically follow that the crew will immediately start a high speed descent. If the cabin is not going higher, they have time to work out what's happened, and maybe correct the issue, and if that happens, there is then no need for a high speed descent. If the aircraft is below FL250, then there is not the same urgency to descend as there is at higher levels, so while they may have to descend, the rate at which they do it can be more relaxed and less obvious to the passengers.

Based on the little we know about the incident on the flight in question, it would seem that the cabin altitude changed very quickly, as evidenced by the bleeding ears and noses, so there was a requirement to get the aircraft down to lower levels quickly. There has been no "official" information about what actually failed, so unless the people considering action have had access to information that's no in the public domain, it would seem that it's an ill advised claim at this time. I've seen nothing that would indicate any failing by the crew in terms of what they did, and why they did it, from the information that's in the public domain, there is nothing to justify action against Ryanair or the crew responsible for the flight.

Mebuntu

Irish Steve wrote: »

I think it would be fair to point out at this time that there are 2 different issues here. If the masks are deployed, that means the cabin altitude has gone above 10,000 Ft, which is obviously going to generate warnings and get the attention of the crew. It does not automatically follow that the crew will immediately start a high speed descent. If the cabin is not going higher, they have time to work out what's happened, and maybe correct the issue, and if that happens, there is then no need for a high speed descent. If the aircraft is below FL250, then there is not the same urgency to descend as there is at higher levels, so while they may have to descend, the rate at which they do it can be more relaxed and less obvious to the passengers.

I appreciate that point but if a rapid descent doesn't occur after mask deployment then they won't be "terrified" like if/when it does because they were not told .

That won’t help much when most passengers don’t actually listen to the briefing.

Just because some people don't listen doesn't apply, otherwise why would they bother with any safety announcement at all?

billy few mates

Irish Steve wrote: »

I think it would be fair to point out at this time that there are 2 different issues here. If the masks are deployed, that means the cabin altitude has gone above 10,000 Ft, which is obviously going to generate warnings and get the attention of the crew. It does not automatically follow that the crew will immediately start a high speed descent. If the cabin is not going higher, they have time to work out what's happened, and maybe correct the issue, and if that happens, there is then no need for a high speed descent. If the aircraft is below FL250, then there is not the same urgency to descend as there is at higher levels, so while they may have to descend, the rate at which they do it can be more relaxed and less obvious to the passengers.

Based on the little we know about the incident on the flight in question, it would seem that the cabin altitude changed very quickly, as evidenced by the bleeding ears and noses, so there was a requirement to get the aircraft down to lower levels quickly. There has been no "official" information about what actually failed, so unless the people considering action have had access to information that's no in the public domain, it would seem that it's an ill advised claim at this time. I've seen nothing that would indicate any failing by the crew in terms of what they did, and why they did it, from the information that's in the public domain, there is nothing to justify action against Ryanair or the crew responsible for the flight.

They won't be claiming anything against the crew at all, they responded correctly and effectively and did exactly what they're supposed to do in this situation.
I would imagine they would bhave to be able to prove some sort of negligence on the part of whoever they decide to sue whether it be the operator, the aircraft manufacturer or the OEM of a particular piece of equipment depending on the cause of the failure.
As far as I know this hasn't been established (or released) yet, and investigations can take a long time.
There are often time limits on personal injury claims so I think this is probably more of a notice of intention to sue within the time limit. Once the results of the investigation are known they can tailor the suit or drop it entirely if they wish.
It's not really surprising, especially here in Ireland with the current 'Compo Culture', what is surprising (to me anyway) is that it's some sort of a mass action, I didn't think we had class action suits here in Ireland.

billy few mates

Noxegon wrote: »

That won’t help much when most passengers don’t actually listen to the briefing.

FWIW, Turkish Airlines’ one includes the words “brace for impact” which I found a little startling.

The Turkish Airlines safety video is that annoying one with the magician that goes on for about ten minutes...

Cloudio9

Mebuntu wrote: »

“The plane was going down and we didn’t know what was happening."

See below.

The reason putting on the mask is in the briefing and the descent is not is that the former is a matter of safety and the latter is a matter of temporary fear.

The basis for the claims is that the passengers contracted with Ryanair to take them from A to B and in doing so Ryanair through its actions or failures to act has caused them personal injury

IE 222

They won't get anywhere near a court until the final report is finished which will probably be months away if not a year. I can't see them getting anything from it other than a large legal bill.

I think I remember reading a post that suggested the caption did announce that a rapid decent was going to be made.

The safety demo is about what passengers need to do rather than what the pilots are going to do. I can't see how telling passengers in the safety demo they may need an emergency decent would make any difference. Passengers need to focus putting masks on instead of preparing for an emergency decent. Not all incidents were masks drop require rapid decent. Any normal person should know and would probably want the plane to land asap.

Its kind of pointless explaining what a pilot may do in such scenarios as the passengers will expect the pilots to perform these measures even if there not required if the incident is less impactful and may panic the passengers more if they notice them not happening. Think of other things that can happen very quickly that only the pilot can resolve which are not in the demo such as go arounds, TCAS warnings mid flight ect.

Noxegon

Mebuntu wrote: »

Just because some people don't listen doesn't apply, otherwise why would they bother with any safety announcement at all?

I thought the point being made here was that passengers unaware that a rapid descent was procedure would panic.

I’d suggest that an automatic PA triggered when the masks drop would be a better approach. Alternatively, the trigger could be when the plane is put into a high descent rate after a loss of cabin pressure.

billy few mates

Noxegon wrote: »

I thought the point being made here was that passengers unaware that a rapid descent was procedure would panic.

I’d suggest that an automatic PA triggered when the masks drop would be a better approach. Alternatively, the trigger could be when the plane is put into a high descent rate after a loss of cabin pressure.

Don't a lot of Airbus aircraft already have this feature (automatic announcement with mask drop)..?

billy few mates

IE 222 wrote: »

They won't get anywhere near a court until the final report is finished which will probably be months away if not a year. I can't see them getting anything from it other than a large legal bill.

I think I remember reading a post that suggested the caption did announce that a rapid decent was going to be made.

The safety demo is about what passengers need to do rather than what the pilots are going to do. I can't see how telling passengers in the safety demo they may need an emergency decent would make any difference. Passengers need to focus putting masks on instead of preparing for an emergency decent. Not all incidents were masks drop require rapid decent. Any normal person should know and would probably want the plane to land asap.

Its kind of pointless explaining what a pilot may do in such scenarios as the passengers will expect the pilots to perform these measures even if there not required if the incident is less impactful and may panic the passengers more if they notice them not happening. Think of other things that can happen very quickly that only the pilot can resolve which are not in the demo such as go arounds, TCAS warnings mid flight ect.

They won't get anywhere near a court for years regardless of the enquiry. Most personal injury claims never actually make it to the court (room) anyway, they're normally 'settled on the steps' (the steps of the court so the lawyers can still charge the appearance fee).
The Civil Liability and Courts Act 2004 sets a two year time limit for making personal injury claims in Ireland, if the enquiry extends beyond this time limit and they wait for the results before filing the defence lawyers would argue that it's statute barred and seek to have it thrown out.
It's standard practice to file an intention to sue everybody remotely connected to the incident at the outset and then amend it once the full facts are known. They can't wait two years and then decide to sue.

plodder

Noxegon wrote: »

I thought the point being made here was that passengers unaware that a rapid descent was procedure would panic.

Though, the injuries weren't caused by the rapid descent. They were caused by the depressurisation and no warning could have anticipated that.

I’d suggest that an automatic PA triggered when the masks drop would be a better approach. Alternatively, the trigger could be when the plane is put into a high descent rate after a loss of cabin pressure.

What could the warning say that would lessen passengers fear?

Something bad happened. There isn't necessarily any negligence arising from that.

billy few mates

Something bad happened. There isn't necessarily any negligence arising from that

Exactly, which is why I said in my original post it depends what caused the depressurisation. Something failed, once the reason for the failure becomes known they'll know whether they have a case or not. No point in speculating until then...

billy few mates

Nonoperational wrote: »

Compo chasing degenerates. Nothing more.

I have to say I abhor the compensation culture we have here in Ireland where chancers try to claim for exaggerated and fake soft tissue injuries and whiplash etc, I love nothing more than reading in the paper where these fraudsters are exposed and have their cases thrown out and end up with hefty legal fees.
Having said that I honestly believe people who suffer 'genuine' injury through no fault or negligence on their own part should be compensated for the pain and suffering endured in an accident or incident regardless of the mode of transport or operator, it's what insurance is there for. There is no doubt some people were injured in this event, some of them may suffer long term because of it. It will be up to the insurance company to determine the quantum based on medical reports but I have no doubt at least some of the passengers will receive compensation for this, and rightly so.
These are rare occurances but they do happen, it's not exactly going to open the floodgates.

Noxegon

plodder wrote: »

What could the warning say that would lessen passengers fear?

As a very rough draft:

“Ladies and gentlemen, there has been a drop in cabin pressure. Please secure your oxygen masks. For your safety the captain will be commencing a rapid descent to a safe altitude and will make a further announcement as soon as possible.”

devnull

In any such announcement, the instruction to secure oxygen masks should be the first thing said,it needs to come before any other details.

Brennus335

It's all a fishing expedition promoted by ambulance chasing lawyers.
You're travelling through the air, 35,000 feet up, at 80% the speed of sound, in a machine that costs $80,000,000, paying €20 so you can go on your summer holidays.
How about you just listen to the safety announcements and do what you're told?


It's not difficult for anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

Turnipman

Noxegon wrote: »

As a very rough draft:

“Ladies and gentlemen, there has been a drop in cabin pressure. Please secure your oxygen masks. For your safety the captain will be commencing a rapid descent to a safe altitude and will make a further announcement as soon as possible.”

For a flight going from Ireland to Croatia, presumably the announcement should be made in Irish (our national language) and Serbo-Croat?

(Being a reasonable sort, I'm prepared to tolerate it being made in English too!)

TheChizler

Noxegon wrote: »

As a very rough draft:

“Ladies and gentlemen, there has been a drop in cabin pressure. Please secure your oxygen masks. For your safety the captain will be commencing a rapid descent to a safe altitude and will make a further announcement as soon as possible.”

As previously pointed out depending on the situation they may not have to reduce altitude, telling them to expect something that doesn't happen could be more hair raising IMO. Are the pilots conscious? Have they lost control of the plane? By all means tell them to put on the masks but everything beyond that is a courtesy and unnecessary in an emergency situation IMO.

billy few mates

TheChizler wrote: »

As previously pointed out depending on the situation they may not have to reduce altitude, telling them to expect something that doesn't happen could be more hair raising IMO. Are the pilots conscious? Have they lost control of the plane? By all means tell them to put on the masks but everything beyond that is a courtesy and unnecessary in an emergency situation IMO.

Absolutely. If you have a rapid decompression over the Alps you're going nowhere. People don't need to be warned about every possible manoeuvre, they just need to be briefed what to do not what to expect. Keep it simple, the more information you give them the more you're likely to confuse or panic them (in my opinion)...

Noxegon

Turnipman wrote: »

For a flight going from Ireland to Croatia, presumably the announcement should be made in Irish (our national language) and Serbo-Croat?

I don’t think I’ve ever heard an Irish language announcement on Ryanair. Time to talk to Joe!