What could Ireland do to emulate Croatia's success

Kidchameleon

Well we cant blame population anymore. Does Croatia have anything that Ireland does not have? Was it a fluke that they reached the final?

Mr.H

Kidchameleon wrote:

Well we cant blame population anymore. Does Croatia have anything that Ireland does not have? Was it a fluke that they reached the final?

The population and funding is relative.

We have 4 big sports to fund and "supply" with our population. How many sports do Croatia have of comparable size?

It might be wrong to think they have some magic formula in football, as I said elsewhere they have produced big basketball and tennis stars, so it could be more of an overall approach to sports.

Which is not to say we're worse, just that we have different factors, culture and tradition, funding, accessibility, even aspects like the weather. They produce better footballers and tennis players, we produce better golfers.

namloc1980

Basketball and Handball are extremely popular in Croatia. The FAI has around double the number of registered players the Croation FA has.

gstack166

SO long as GAA clubs manipulate & shame kids into choosing one over the other especially in rural Ireland with small town populations then there will be never change.

I see group what’s app texts from fellas in their 30’s posting on it to kids their managing about ‘making football/hurling a priority & anyone caught playing in the local soccer clubs matches anything up to 2 weeks before a GAA will be dropped’

It’s scandalous but they have the upper hand in rural Ireland, I know it doesn’t happen as much or as harsh as that in City clubs for the most part due to participating numbers.

Cantona's Collars

gstack166 wrote: »

SO long as GAA clubs manipulate & shame kids into choosing one over the other especially in rural Ireland with small town populations then there will be never change.

I see group what’s app texts from fellas in their 30’s posting on it to kids their managing about ‘making football/hurling a priority & anyone caught playing in the local soccer clubs matches anything up to 2 weeks before a GAA will be dropped’

It’s scandalous but they have the upper hand in rural Ireland, I know it doesn’t happen as much or as harsh as that in City clubs for the most part due to participating numbers.

This.

I've seen it firsthand that local GAA clubs change training nights specifically to clash with soccer training for kids and then tell them if they don't turn up then they won't be considered for the panel in upcoming games.
This could be a bigger problem going forward as soccer is to be moved to a Spring/Summer schedule.

Hannibal

You would imagine they're being taught technical football from a young age similar to the other former Yugoslav countries. Modric is more skillful than any player to ever line out for us and before him there was the likes of Boban and Prosinecki.


Their squad has players playing in the top flights of England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France whereas our players just stay in England and drift between the divisions.

GavRedKing

GAA, Rugby, Soccer all trying to pull boys and girls from roughly the same talent pool.

Thats before you mention the Olympic sports that we're usually well represented in, boxing, athletics and the likes.

Hector Savage

I think tough lives make good athletes too, these guys went through a lot of **** with war - focuses the mind.

Irish kids are lazy and addicted to their phones and game consoles.

Same reason poor countries produce great footballers, it's all they do cos it's all they have.

Sabre0001

They have a comparable number of Olympians and Olympic medals too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_at_the_Olympics

Mr.Nice Guy linked back to an old post in this forum from the World Cup forum that makes for interesting reading: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95868584&postcount=14

Maybe there is something to be said for raw talent (but also good, technical coaching at younger age groups)

NIMAN

Hector Savage wrote: »

I think tough lives make good athletes too, these guys went through a lot of **** with war - focuses the mind.

Irish kids are lazy and addicted to their phones and game consoles.

Same reason poor countries produce great footballers, it's all they do cos it's all they have.

How come NI were cack for years so?

GavRedKing

NIMAN wrote: »

How come NI were cack for years so?

For years the better players played for the Republic? :pac:

Cantona's Collars

Modric in the middle of the field for Ireland constantly seeing the ball fly over his head as our defence hoof it long for Shane Long to chase would soon put a stop to all his fancy passes and playmaking.

Pauliedragon

Hannibal wrote: »

You would imagine they're being taught technical football from a young age similar to the other former Yugoslav countries. Modric is more skillful than any player to ever line out for us and before him there was the likes of Boban and Prosinecki.


Their squad has players playing in the top flights of England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France whereas our players just stay in England and drift between the divisions.

Well said. Croatia and a lot of other countries teach their kids from a young age how to pass the ball ,movement, spatial awareness etc. We throw a ball at our kids and tell them run and kick the ball as hard as they can.

partyguinness

Don't forget Croatia didn't just magically appear out of the Adriatic Sea 25 years ago.

Croatia existed before WWII and was of course part of the old Yugoslavia who traditionally were very good at sports. So this is a legacy of good old fashioned communist jingoism.

partyguinness

gstack166 wrote: »

SO long as GAA clubs manipulate & shame kids into choosing one over the other especially in rural Ireland with small town populations then there will be never change.

I see group what’s app texts from fellas in their 30’s posting on it to kids their managing about ‘making football/hurling a priority & anyone caught playing in the local soccer clubs matches anything up to 2 weeks before a GAA will be dropped’

It’s scandalous but they have the upper hand in rural Ireland, I know it doesn’t happen as much or as harsh as that in City clubs for the most part due to participating numbers.

Oh yeah. I've seen that GAA Taliban at work. BUt the same GAA heads are straight over the Old Trafford at the drop of a hat to watch their beloved ManU.

Pighead

namloc1980 wrote: »

Basketball and Handball are extremely popular in Croatia. The FAI has around double the number of registered players the Croation FA has.

Water Polo as well. Croatia are the current Water Polo world champions! You may have seen a lot of the Croatian fans wearing swimming hats at the World Cup in celebration of this fact.

Amirani

Our development pathways for young players have traditionally been terrible. Whilst our domestic leagues have been of a similar standard for quite some time, Croatian teams have been consistently better able to retain and develop players at young ages. Our model has always been to ship young teenagers off to English academies (not the most positive technical environment) at the earliest opportunity - and England have suffered some of the same developmental problems as us, and only really hid their shortcomings through one of the largest playing populations in world football.

This has changed a bit in recent years, and the FAI in fairness to them have taken a much more wholesome view of developing talent here. There's national development panels and leagues, and there's more of a focus on National League clubs developing players all the way through, rather than junior clubs just trying to act as a shop window so they can make a few quid. Things won't change overnight, but things should get better. England have also done great work at underage levels, and are probably a bit ahead of us in this regard - they have some very strong underage sides at the moment.

iroced

Sabre0001 wrote: »

They have a comparable number of Olympians and Olympic medals too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_at_the_Olympics

Beware though, Croatia record at the Olympics only started in 1992!

Pighead wrote: »

namloc1980 wrote: »

Basketball and Handball are extremely popular in Croatia. The FAI has around double the number of registered players the Croation FA has.

Water Polo as well. Croatia are the current Water Polo world champions! You may have seen a lot of the Croatian fans wearing swimming hats at the World Cup in celebration of this fact.

Yeah, Handball, a bit like for us Frenchies, is probably their "best" sport. Croatia-France is such a "classic" rivalry (the Federer-Nadal of Handball :P). And they "produce(d)" some of the best ever Handball players (just to name a classy one, Ivano Balic) and coaches ("legendary" Lino Červar).

Speaking of Rodger & Rafa, you could add tennis to Croatian sports successes with players like Ivanisevic & Cilic among the best of their times and notably winning 1 Slam each (and maybe more for Cilic). Iva Majoli too ; if she wasn't as consistent as them, she did win a Slam too.

rob316

As long as I can remember Croatia have been a decent side so they haven't come out of nowhere and let's be honest it was strange world cup, Croatia were really the best of a bad bunch on that side of the knockout stage.

We entrust the development of our players in the English academies, a system that made England perennial failures on the international stage. Truth is our own domestic league is so poor, players at the first chance go to England to play at any level, so we really have no control over how football is taught in this country.

We all watch our kids play and see the sort of **** been screamed from the side lines. "Get rid of it", "Go long". You wouldn't hear it on the continent, they are explicity told to keep it on the ground and pass.

I also think we loose alot of talent to GAA at a young age. I remember it in school, lads with an eye for a ball, with dreams of playing pro but instead get pressured into playing that rotten Gaelic Football.

Hannibal

Hannibal wrote: »

You would imagine they're being taught technical football from a young age similar to the other former Yugoslav countries. Modric is more skillful than any player to ever line out for us and before him there was the likes of Boban and Prosinecki.

I saw Prosinecki when he was playing in the championship. He was late thrities by then and the forty a day he smoked were starting to take their toll, but easily one of the best three or four players i have ever has the pleasure to watch in person.

GavRedKing wrote: »

GAA, Rugby, Soccer all trying to pull boys and girls from roughly the same talent pool.

They are, but it is only the GAA that doesn't tell them to fook off if they aren't of the very highest standard.

I have seen several kids from both football and rugby not quite make the cut to the likes of Cabinteely or Bray, or even make the Leinster trials and end up playing for their local GAA club. There seems to be almost an all or nothing attitude with a lot of sports that the GAA does not have, it is all about getting numbers playing rather than only being interested in winning medals.

Ferris_Bueller

Looking at the two squads, Croatian players tend to stay in Croatia until they are older and have some mens football under their belt before going off to play abroad whereas Irish lads tend to go at 16. So many of the Croatian players seem to be a product of a system, half of their squad seemed to come through the ranks at Dinamo Zagreb and others at Hajduk Split, whereas in Ireland we have a complete mixed bag (the closest we have is Cork City who have produced maybe 3 or 4 of our squad). It's as if when our players get to 16 we say you're on your own from here and we hope that one of the hundreds that go abroad will come good.

Also the Croatian players play all across Europe in leagues in Germany, Italy, England, France, Spain, Turkey & Russia, whereas our players all play in the UK. Croatia also seem to rely very little on the granny rule and the majority of their squad has come through the Croatian league, by comparison we usually have almost half a squad who are born in England or Scotland.

rob316

Ireland is little England. That's all there is too it, we can't produce these players while England can't either.

partyguinness

We need to stop aping England.

Why do we insist on copying England and the FA? Why not Spain, Germany and Holland.



You know like..successful international teams that regularly produce top class players and teams.


But oh no. Little Johnny gets a trail with Exeter and Plymouth and all of a sudden he's the business. Straight into U-17 internationals.

twilight_singer

partyguinness wrote: »

We need to stop aping England.

Why do we insist on copying England and the FA? Why not Spain, Germany and Holland.



You know like..successful international teams that regularly produce top class players and teams.


But oh no. Little Johnny gets a trail with Exeter and Plymouth and all of a sudden he's the business. Straight into U-17 internationals.

Our Technical director is Dutch, already trying to mirror the 4-3-3 dutch system at underage level. Mixed results.

Truth be told Kids need to be taught technical skills at the earliest age possible and not just when they start playing school boy or whatever.
This is the advantage that countries with academys have, they have kids in from the 8 years learning touch, control etc.

yabadabado

Investment in qualified coaches would make a huge difference. Get people involved who know what they are doing ,not just there because their kid is involved.

Afaik Croatia spend a lot more money on sports tag we do ,extra money will make a big difference.

MD1990

It is simple start promoting the LOI more.
Start investing in better facilities & improving stadiums. It needs to look better on tv would be a start.
It has produced most of our national squad.

rob316

MD1990 wrote: »

It is simple start promoting the LOI more.
Start investing in better facilities & improving stadiums. It needs to look better on tv would be a start.
It has produced most of our national squad.

They need to air more games for one. 2 seasons ago there was a Dundalk vs cork game on and it wasn't even televised, a top of the table clash like.

The prize money for winning the league is a joke, there is executives in the FAI on higher salaries.

Clareman

How about working with the other sporting organisations rather that against them? The reason most training sessions/matches clash with other sports is because they are on at a time that suits everyone. Ireland is a small country with a small population, the majority of Soccer fans are also GAA fans and are Rugby fans, it's when there's clashes between sports there's hassle. There's also no point in saying it's just the GAA against Soccer, it's Gaelic Football against Hurling, Swimming against Athletics, etc. etc. Weekends are taken up with hurling blitzes, football blitzes, rugby blitzes, soccer blitzes, if 2 are on at the same time something is going to have to give, why not do up a local calendar to suit everyone and have it voted on democratically.

Yes there is bad eggs in every organisation that will be anti-soccer/anti-rugby/anti-gaa but by and large underage sporting organisations are operated by parents that know the story.

BorneTobyWilde

Blame the GAA. Football should be played in all schools, not GAA football or Hurling.

Clareman

I'm looking from the outside in by the way and my only local soccer knowledge is in the Clare area but there seems to be an awful lot of clubs around, in Ennis there is 5 soccer clubs (I think) and they all have their own rivalry/pubs etc., in the same town there is only 2 GAA clubs and only 1 of those is senior. I'm sure 1 big club would be a lot better than 5 small ones.

Clareman

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Blame the GAA. Football should be played in all schools, not GAA football or Hurling.

I'm sure schools wouldn't have any problem with that, would the FAI be able to provide the same resources as the GAA does?

pjohnson

partyguinness wrote: »

We need to stop aping England.

Why do we insist on copying England and the FA? Why not Spain, Germany and Holland.



You know like..successful international teams that regularly produce top class players and teams.


But oh no. Little Johnny gets a trail with Exeter and Plymouth and all of a sudden he's the business. Straight into U-17 internationals.

Well where else are they meant to play? Irish clubs can barely keep a senior side in business let alone a youth/development team. Hajduk, Zagreb and I think at least two others all have youth teams in the second tier where there kids get to play. Shamrock Rovers had a B team for a year before it went defunct. Bray and Limeric senior sides look ready to go boom before the season is over.

tastyt

As one poster said earlier our kids are lazy, and dont understand the hard work required to work on your skills to make it. Even at top schoolboy clubs like kevins or joeys , u have good coaches doing the right thing but this is only for an hour 2/3 times a week. The really top young lads will be out playing football all the rest of the week, but this is getting less and less in comfortable countries.

Also our schools. The majority of European lads will play and train football in school every day, just like our lads do with gaa. Its no surprise

Zebra3

Get rid of Delaney for starters.

Richard Hillman

This is one case where we can't blame the GAA, IRFU or even the FAI.

It's a national psyche. Whatever they chose to do, they go all out on. As posted previously, their record in the Olympics is outrageous. Outside the likes of Handball, Basketball, Water-Polo, they produce Major winning Tennis players, World champions in Athletics, high level MMA/Kick Boxers, Olympic winning Skiers, it goes on. They've just over 20 years of solo sporting History.

Footballwise, it was pointed out in another thread in the world cup forum, that the vast majority of players came through the Dynamo Zagreb system. It had inadvertently became the national academy. Which IMO is a much more successful way that having a national association overseeing things.

keith_sixteen

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Blame the GAA. Football should be played in all schools, not GAA football or Hurling.

Yeah, cos they ban all the other sports in Croatia too. :rolleyes:

Drumpot

Hector Savage wrote: »

I think tough lives make good athletes too, these guys went through a lot of **** with war - focuses the mind.

Irish kids are lazy and addicted to their phones and game consoles.

Same reason poor countries produce great footballers, it's all they do cos it's all they have.

I think there is definitely a truth in some of this. But if we look at the final four teams in the World Cup most years it’s dominated by European teams.

I wouldn’t say Chinese people have a rosy life yet they haven’t produced any real top footballers. You could also argue that Spanish , German and French players had had very sheltered lives yet have shared the last 3 world cups.

I definitely think there is an over abundance of molly coddled footballers like England’s supposedly golden generation that get given riches before they have proven anything. This stunts their mental strength, particularly if they go through a rough patch and when things get hard they look for an easy way out.

I think Pogba is a perfect example. A clearly top player who will work hard for himself when he has only 7 games to infamy or if he will walk a league for Juve. But when he was challenged by Jose to dig in and sacrifice a more advanced role for a deeper one that his team needed to do, he struggled to get his head around the fact that there is no I in team. He was so used to getting whatever he wants and having people blow smoke up his ass he couldn’t emotionally deal with a manager actually challanging him. Hopefully the World Cup has helped him mature in this area.

In terms of Irish players I think application and hard work is seldom, if ever a problem. It’s technical talent and an underlying insecurity that’s been further compounded by our tactics. It’s the FAIs fault, not Martin O Neill who’s job is to qualify for tournaments first and foremost. Why not get in a young new manager and task them with a primary goal of working on Ireland’s deficiencies ? That would be a start!

Strumms

gstack166 wrote: »

SO long as GAA clubs manipulate & shame kids into choosing one over the other especially in rural Ireland with small town populations then there will be never change.

I see group what’s app texts from fellas in their 30’s posting on it to kids their managing about ‘making football/hurling a priority & anyone caught playing in the local soccer clubs matches anything up to 2 weeks before a GAA will be dropped’

It’s scandalous but they have the upper hand in rural Ireland, I know it doesn’t happen as much or as harsh as that in City clubs for the most part due to participating numbers.

The Christian Brothers secondary school I went to in the 90’s prohibited having a soccer team, it was also outlawed in PE though athletics and GAA in particular were well supported and encouraged.

Sheep breeder

The FAI missed a big chance to progress soccer on in Ireland in the Jack charlton era when it was on a high instead of milking away the money. The big advantage that rugby and the gaa have is they play for the one club all the time and build loyalty. Where with the soccer they change clubs and all about winning for the individual over the one club.

Zebra3

Strumms wrote: »

The Christian Brothers secondary school I went to in the 90’s prohibited having a soccer team, it was also outlawed in PE though athletics and GAA in particular were well supported and encouraged.

Sure they used to batter kids for having an interest in football. Look at how they treated Liam Brady. Cvnts.

Omackeral

Hannibal wrote: »

Their squad has players playing in the top flights of England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France whereas our players just stay in England and drift between the divisions.

That's a cultural thing most definitely and one I resent. I can speak Irish conversationally to a degree and would be literate in it to a decent standard but my word it is useless outside of a pat on the back here or there. I've started to learn Spanish off my own bat since last year and have already got a lot more use out of it than I have with a language that I learned for 14 years. Your average Irish footballer is mono-linguistic and that's got to be a barrier when it comes to plying your trade in continental Europe.

Oh also, if people got out and supported the National League it would be of immense help to our future going forward. For such a supposed ''football mad'' nation, we really struggle at doing it week in and week out.

micks

Aegir wrote: »

I saw Prosinecki when he was playing in the championship. He was late thrities by then and the forty a day he smoked were starting to take their toll, but easily one of the best three or four players i have ever has the pleasure to watch in person.



They are, but it is only the GAA that doesn't tell them to fook off if they aren't of the very highest standard.

I have seen several kids from both football and rugby not quite make the cut to the likes of Cabinteely or Bray, or even make the Leinster trials and end up playing for their local GAA club. There seems to be almost an all or nothing attitude with a lot of sports that the GAA does not have, it is all about getting numbers playing rather than only being interested in winning medals.

if you're going to make **** up pick your examples better
Cabinteely cater for kids of all abilities not just elite

for example this year they have 5 * U16 teams AND their LOI U15 & U17 teams

http://junior.cabinteelyfc.ie/organisation/manager-contact-details/

so if a kid of 15/16 cant make those 6 teams its not because they are not being catered for by Cabinteely

micks

micks wrote: »

if you're going to make **** up pick your examples better
Cabinteely cater for kids of all abilities not just elite

for example this year they have 5 * U16 teams AND their LOI U15 & U17 teams

http://junior.cabinteelyfc.ie/organisation/manager-contact-details/

so if a kid of 15/16 cant make those 6 teams its not because they are not being catered for by Cabinteely

That’s a bit aggressive, is that normal for this forum?

I maybe didn’t make my point very clearly, At 15/16 they have a choice, but then what? What happens when they fail to make the cut after that? Find one of the very few other clubs (who also have younger age teams) or stop playing football.

Francie Barrett

Omackeral wrote: »

That's a cultural thing most definitely and one I resent. I can speak Irish conversationally to a degree and would be literate in it to a decent standard but my word it is useless outside of a pat on the back here or there. I've started to learn Spanish off my own bat since last year and have already got a lot more use out of it than I have with a language that I learned for 14 years. Your average Irish footballer is mono-linguistic and that's got to be a barrier when it comes to plying your trade in continental Europe.

That really is scraping the barrel in terms of excuses. It's not language ability that is stopping Irish players from moving to continental European clubs, it's the lack of technical ability.

There are some very good set up's in Irish football at school boy level that are trying to do the right thing. When my son was playing five years ago, all the well known school boy clubs I watched would have kept it on the deck and focused on ball retention and passing. What I saw at that level and what I see at the senior level of the LOI are two completely different things. It seems to me like the LOI clubs are far more focused on the short term. The best way of winning in LOI football is to combine experienced domestic league footballers with the best of the returning Irish footballers from England who didn't make it. It seems if you are a technically minded teenager, you will struggle to get a look in.

Kidchameleon

Some great responses, very thought provoking. Man, imagine how good we could be. If only.

Hannibal

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Well said. Croatia and a lot of other countries teach their kids from a young age how to pass the ball ,movement, spatial awareness etc. We throw a ball at our kids and tell them run and kick the ball as hard as they can.

Full size pitches and 11 a side football at 12 years old, you hardly get on the ball because you're wrecked from running.

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Looking at the two squads, Croatian players tend to stay in Croatia until they are older and have some mens football under their belt before going off to play abroad whereas Irish lads tend to go at 16
Also the Croatian players play all across Europe in leagues in Germany, Italy, England, France, Spain, Turkey & Russia, whereas our players all play in the UK. Croatia also seem to rely very little on the granny rule and the majority of their squad has come through the Croatian league, by comparison we usually have almost half a squad who are born in England or Scotland.

I always wondered how many of our promising kids are lost in the English system and have lost the motivation to play when they miss the cut at big clubs. Fair play to Daniel Cleary for jumping in at Dundalk... John Paul Kelly I remember captaining Liverpool reserves then disappeared after a season at Bohs.


Rakitic is a major exception to that, maybe not the granny rule but he's Swiss born and Swiss produced.


Cillian Sheridan has been scoring goals in the top flights of Cyprus and now Poland yet he's nowhere near the squad while we've practically nothing up front. Two lads from Preston and Hogan who is hardly playing or scoring for Villa

listermint

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Blame the GAA. Football should be played in all schools, not GAA football or Hurling.

Idiotic post.

Blame the fai and its board for overpaying executives and doing nothing for grass roots football.

Football I'm Ireland is shambolic because it comes from the top down.

Anyone who blames anyone outside if Irish football is an utter idiot and doesn't deserve to be listened to.

What's more that sort of stupid mentality won't move the ability level of Irish youngsters an inch.

Irish football is in disarray because the Association has it that way.

listermint

Strumms wrote: »

The Christian Brothers secondary school I went to in the 90’s prohibited having a soccer team, it was also outlawed in PE though athletics and GAA in particular were well supported and encouraged.

That's a great story lads. It was the same for my granddads era too ,

But it's 2018 so I think its time we got over those sorts of excuses and start looking at answers and that's the domestic league and he association that manages it.

Francie Barrett

Hannibal wrote: »

Full size pitches and 11 a side football at 12 years old, you hardly get on the ball because you're wrecked from running.

For a start, at U13 level you now only play a 35 minute half. Secondly, the practice of starting U13's playing on a full sized pitch is the rest of continental Europe is doing.

Also, as has already been pointed out, we have had a respected Dutch coach's trying to get our under-age teams playing in a modern passing style for 10 years now (Dokter now, Kovermans before him).

Like I said in my previous post, as someone who has seen a son play at a high level until he was 19, I have seen first hand that what we see at underage level is not the type of football we see our players play in the LOI or English leagues.

764dak

namloc1980 wrote: »

Basketball and Handball are extremely popular in Croatia. The FAI has around double the number of registered players the Croation FA has.

How many play professionally?