Team GB cycling rule on two wheels

sxt

Great Britain may not rule the waves but they rule on two wheels. Respect where respect is due. The massive. funding, investment and elite training academies that were put in place really have paid dividends! In the last 10 years

I dont know where to start

Sir Chris hoy. Six Olympic golds.11 world championships gold. Arguably the greatest track cyclist of all time

Bradley Wiggins, most track medals in Olympic history with eight medals, 5 of them gold. 7 world championships gold. He became the first British cyclist to win TDF in 2012

Jason Kenny has won six Olympic gold medals. Three world championship gold

Laura Kenny(related? ) 4 Olympic gold, 7 gold world championship

Victoria Louise Pendleton, won two Olympic golds, 9 gold world championships


Chris froome has won 4 tour de Frances since 2013, a Giro, and a Vuelta. Arguably the greatest road cyclist of all time. He or another British rider Grant Thomas will win the TDF this year.

Mark Cavendish won 4 world championships gold and 30 stages at the TDF making him one of the best sprinters in road cycling history




I m probably missing a couple of others?

Eamonnator

Mark Cavendish has won one World Championship Road Race, not four.
Or did you mean Gold on the track?
Jason and Laura Kenny are married.

sxt

Eamonnator wrote: »

Mark Cavendish has won one World Championship Road Race, not four.
Or did you mean Gold on the track?
Jason and Laura Kenny are married.

I grouped them together, three of them were on the track. He probably should have won more!

Weepsie

sxt wrote: »

Arguably the greatest road cyclist of all time.

Nope, but he is a medical marvel!

He'd want to start showing up at some of the classics, and monuments for that accolade to even be thought about first.

He has had a dominant team too and a few TT heavy GCs to help him on the way (as did Brad)

mloc123

sxt wrote: »

Chris froome has won 4 tour de Frances since 2013, a Giro, and a Vuelta. Arguably the greatest road cyclist of all time.

GTFO. All time, really?

Wishbone Ash

Don't feed the troll!

NIMAN

I often wonder how Team GB were so successful when apparently none of them ever dope.

sxt

NIMAN wrote: »

I often wonder how Team GB were so successful when apparently none of them ever dope.

They have strategically identified cycling as a sport to invest heavily in, and thrown millions and millions at it. Best facilities, best equipment, best coaches, best methods of identifying talent etc. All they want is medals!

They also appear to be dominating mountain biking as well recently!

Danny hart, 2 world championship gold

Gee Atherton, 2 world championship gold


They are now investing 2 million towards BMX cycling for the next olympics

Lusk_Doyle

All hail the vultures...

https://youtu.be/6maSIvVG_PY

Lemming

sxt wrote: »

They also appear to be dominating mountain biking as well recently!

Danny hart, 2 world championship gold

Gee Atherton, 2 world championship gold

Team GB/British cycling have had an exceptionally poor record engaging with mountain biking and were up until recent *ahem* changes in senior coaching personnel outright hostile towards mountain bike disciplines.

Danny & Gee's downhill records, among other British riders, are in spite of Team GB, not because of.

DonegalBay

sxt wrote: »

Great Britain may not rule the waves but they rule on two wheels. Respect where respect is due. The massive. funding, investment and elite training academies that were put in place really have paid dividends! In the last 10 years

I dont know where to start

Sir Chris hoy. Six Olympic golds.11 world championships gold. Arguably the greatest track cyclist of all time

Bradley Wiggins, most track medals in Olympic history with eight medals, 5 of them gold. 7 world championships gold. He became the first British cyclist to win TDF in 2012

Jason Kenny has won six Olympic gold medals. Three world championship gold

Laura Kenny(related? ) 4 Olympic gold, 7 gold world championship

Victoria Louise Pendleton, won two Olympic golds, 9 gold world championships


Chris froome has won 4 tour de Frances since 2013, a Giro, and a Vuelta. Arguably the greatest road cyclist of all time. He or another British rider Grant Thomas will win the TDF this year.

Mark Cavendish won 4 world championships gold and 30 stages at the TDF making him one of the best sprinters in road cycling history




I m probably missing a couple of others?

GB have developed into a good cycling nation and fair play to them. They focused on a niche area of cycling(track cycling) which most countries didn't really give a crap about(Australia went down the same route before them and also had a lot of success), threw a load of money at it and has paid off.

Lets be clear though, GB had little to do with the development of Chris Froome. SKY only signed him because he had a British passport, GB had no input on his development. An average rider who was doing nothing at SKY, then like someone flipped a switch, turned into a world beater overnight. Forget Lance or any of the other EPO generation transformations, there has never been a transformation in the history of the sport like Froome and yet we have never had a proper explanation as to how this happened. The badzilla stuff doesn't really cut it,


Wiggins another massive transformation and now Thomas turning into a potential Tour winner in his 30s. I guess for those who have seen these movies before, there is a high level of cynicism with regard to how they have happened, especially all the stuff that has come out over the last few years.

Cavendish I feel is grossly over-rated, he was fortunate in that he was dominant in a very weak era of sprinters, Tyler Farrar, Sebastian Chavanel anyone??? Once guys like Kittel arrived on the scene, the dominance disappeared. Still cannot believe such a one dimensional rider was World Road Race champion, but then again there have been plenty of fluke champions as well.

I know it seems as if track cycling is a big deal, but as someone who has followed the sport for some 30 years, most cycling fans never really cared about it all that much.

Eamonnator

sxt wrote: »

They have strategically identified cycling as a sport to invest heavily in, and thrown millions and millions at it. Best facilities, best equipment, best coaches, best methods of identifying talent etc. All they want is medals!

They also appear to be dominating mountain biking as well recently!

Danny hart, 2 world championship gold

Gee Atherton, 2 world championship gold


They are now investing 2 million towards BMX cycling for the next olympics

This is not true.
In XCO mountain biking, the highest ranked British male rider is 51st.
There are two or three British riders in the top 50 in Women's XCO
In DH, its a bit better. There are 8 or 9 men in the top 50, and 4 or 5 women in the top 50.
In Junior Men XCO, the highest ranked British rider is 81st
In Junior Women XCO, there's one British girl in the top 100.
By country, GB men are ranked 28th in Olympic qualification for XC MTB
That's hardly World Dominance.

http://www.uci.ch/mountain-bike/ranking/

carnivorecc

DonegalBay wrote: »

SKY only signed him because he had a British passport, GB had no input on his development. An average rider who was doing nothing at SKY, then like someone flipped a switch, turned into a world beater overnight. Forget Lance or any of the other EPO generation transformations, there has never been a transformation in the history of the sport like Froome and yet we have never had a proper explanation as to how this happened. The badzilla stuff doesn't really cut it,


Wiggins another massive transformation and now Thomas turning into a potential Tour winner in his 30s. I guess for those who have seen these movies before, there is a high level of cynicism with regard to how they have happened, especially all the stuff that has come out over the last few years.

Cavendish I feel is grossly over-rated, he was fortunate in that he was dominant in a very weak era of sprinters, Tyler Farrar, Sebastian Chavanel anyone??? Once guys like Kittel arrived on the scene, the dominance disappeared. Still cannot believe such a one dimensional rider was World Road Race champion, but then again there have been plenty of fluke champions as well.

Froome was diagnosed with bilharzia in 2009 and then finished second in the Veulta in 2011. Very unfair to say there has never been a transformation in the history of the sport like Froome.

Wiggins won 6 track world golds before his Tour win and had already come 4th in the 2009 Tour. A slow and steady transformation to a GC rider. The same with Thomas a 3 time world track champion. Then second on GC at the 2015 Tour de Suisse, winning the 2016 Paris Nice and 2017 tour of the Alps.

Cavendish was dominant, end of story. He has won 30 tdf stages over 8 years and 4 stages in 2016. He has won the points jersey at all 3 grand tours, 3 track world championships and a silver medal in the omnium. A versatile sprinter in my book.

gmacww

DonegalBay wrote: »

Cavendish I feel is grossly over-rated, he was fortunate in that he was dominant in a very weak era of sprinters, Tyler Farrar, Sebastian Chavanel anyone??? Once guys like Kittel arrived on the scene, the dominance disappeared. Still cannot believe such a one dimensional rider was World Road Race champion, but then again there have been plenty of fluke champions as well.

Out of curiosity who would be your top sprinter picks? You've been quite cautious with your rival picks there. Sebastian Chavanel has never won a thing and while Farrar has won 6 GT stages he was never top tier. I notice you forgot to mention Thor, Petacchi, Greipel, Kittel, Sagan etc... Cavendish has won 48 GT stages. You don't do that by accident or by fluke. 1 maybe but not 48. 30 of which are in the tour. That's like saying a snooker player fluked a 147.

Kittel arrived on the scene in 2013. Cav still won 2 stages (tour) that year and has won stages up to 2016 until injury and illness took a hold. 2014 the exception being that he abandoned on stage 1.

As for being world champion that all depends on the course. The year he won it it was pan flat and a pure sprinters platform. It's since taken on more of a "rolling" nature with plenty of difficult hills which pretty much rules him out. He is completely one dimensional. He's an out and out sprinter. Then again almost all sprinters are. There is a reason the groupetto is packed full of sprinters.

DonegalBay

gmacww wrote: »

Out of curiosity who would be your top sprinter picks? You've been quite cautious with your rival picks there. Sebastian Chavanel has never won a thing and while Farrar has won 6 GT stages he was never top tier. I notice you forgot to mention Thor, Petacchi, Greipel, Kittel, Sagan etc... Cavendish has won 48 GT stages. You don't do that by accident or by fluke. 1 maybe but not 48. 30 of which are in the tour. That's like saying a snooker player fluked a 147.

Kittel arrived on the scene in 2013. Cav still won 2 stages (tour) that year and has won stages up to 2016 until injury and illness took a hold. 2014 the exception being that he abandoned on stage 1.

As for being world champion that all depends on the course. The year he won it it was pan flat and a pure sprinters platform. It's since taken on more of a "rolling" nature with plenty of difficult hills which pretty much rules him out. He is completely one dimensional. He's an out and out sprinter. Then again almost all sprinters are. There is a reason the groupetto is packed full of sprinters.

Well Petacchi was mid 30s by the time Cavendish arrived on the scene, ditto Robbie McEwen. Both past their prime at that stage. I would have put those two well ahead of someone like Hushovd who was more of a classics rider who could sprint, and he too was in his 30s during the Cav dominant period. I think some would put Cipo top and he had Abdujaparov as his big rival early career, then the likes of Zabel, Petacchi and McEwen . I am not saying Cavendish was not top rate, he was and belongs up there with the likes of Cipo, Van Poppel, Zabel, Petacchi, McEwen, Freddy Maertens. I am pointing out his dominant period 2008-12, happened during a relatively weak era for sprinting, post prime career Petacchi, McEwen, Zabel and before the likes of Kittel, Sagan etc, once they arrived his win rate dropped off from what it was.

As a general rule, I

at1withmyself

DonegalBay wrote: »

Well Petacchi was mid 30s by the time Cavendish arrived on the scene, ditto Robbie McEwen. Both past their prime at that stage. I would have put those two well ahead of someone like Hushovd who was more of a classics rider who could sprint, and he too was in his 30s during the Cav dominant period. I think some would put Cipo top and he had Abdujaparov as his big rival early career, then the likes of Zabel, Petacchi and McEwen . I am not saying Cavendish was not top rate, he was and belongs up there with the likes of Cipo, Van Poppel, Zabel, Petacchi, McEwen, Freddy Maertens. I am pointing out his dominant period 2008-12, happened during a relatively weak era for sprinting, post prime career Petacchi, McEwen, Zabel and before the likes of Kittel, Sagan etc, once they arrived his win rate dropped off from what it was.

As a general rule, I

Love him or loath him but your taking rubbish, Cavendish was not fluke and very dominant sprinter with a great sprint team. What about the 4 or 5 wins as recently as 2016, was that all fluke too or where all the other sprinters sick/tired/having a bad day.

I'm not his biggest fan but he certainly wasn't fluke winning over 25 Tour De France stages and a world champion. Credit were credit is due....

DonegalBay

at1withmyself wrote: »

Love him or loath him but your taking rubbish, Cavendish was not fluke and very dominant sprinter with a great sprint team. What about the 4 or 5 wins as recently as 2016, was that all fluke too or where all the other sprinters sick/tired/having a bad day.

I'm not his biggest fan but he certainly wasn't fluke winning over 25 Tour De France stages and a world champion. Credit were credit is due....

Don't think I mentioned the word fluke anywhere. Yes he was very good in 2016, but one season out of the last 7.

Lets look at figures here, between 08-11(4 seasons) Cavendish won 20 Tour stages in that time frame, a phenomenal record. In the last 7 seasons he has won 10 Tour stages(4 of those in 2016). Fact is Sagan arrived in 2012, Kittel the season after and we are seeing newer names the last few years.

Most what we would term world class sprinters usually have had at least one other world class sprinter to contend with in their prime, that is why there were some great rivalries and they were each dominant different years. I just don't think there were any other World class sprinters in their prime when Cavendish was dominant(08-11). If people think there were world class sprinters in that period, then put them forward. No, late thirties Petacchi does not count.

Maybe I need to address this another way, if there had been a prime Kittel or McEwen etc competing against Cavendish between 08-11, would he still have been as dominant? I think the answer is a resolute no, though he would still have won quite a bit. What is world class? A sprinter who could win 3-4 stages in a single Tour.

DonegalBay

DonegalBay wrote: »

Don't think I mentioned the word fluke anywhere. Yes he was very good in 2016, but one season out of the last 7.

Lets look at figures here, between 08-11(4 seasons) Cavendish won 20 Tour stages in that time frame, a phenomenal record. In the last 7 seasons he has won 10 Tour stages(4 of those in 2016). Fact is Sagan arrived in 2012, Kittel the season after and we are seeing newer names the last few years.

Most what we would term world class sprinters usually have had at least one other world class sprinter to contend with in their prime, that is why there were some great rivalries and they were each dominant different years. I just don't think there were any other World class sprinters in their prime when Cavendish was dominant(08-11). If people think there were world class sprinters in that period, then put them forward. No, late thirties Petacchi does not count.

Maybe I need to address this another way, if there had been a prime Kittel or McEwen etc competing against Cavendish between 08-11, would he still have been as dominant? I think the answer is a resolute no, though he would still have won quite a bit. What is world class? A sprinter who could win 3-4 stages in a single Tour.

This year it would seem it's one who can finish a tour, i know there was a stage 2 or 3 years back where so many were outside the time on a stage they had to relax the rule but yesterday it was one big name after another climbing off not even waiting for the rules to end thier tour. I really think yesterday they should have slogged it out and hope for the same.

at1withmyself

DonegalBay wrote: »

What is world class? A sprinter who could win 3-4 stages in a single Tour.

Which is what he done in 2016.

I think your being unfair on the guy and anyone who has 30 stage wins has already proven themselves.

Arguing over the competition is null and void in my opinion, he can't do anything about that and sure maybe if there was, a higher level of competition then he would have have risen to that challenge but to me that's just a load of what if nonsense from the school play ground.

Lumen

30 TdF stage wins. 30. It's a big number. Comparisons are a bit pointless. You can only beat whoever is there on the day.

It's the TdF, not like pot hunting at the arse end of the A4 season when everyone is on their holliers.

Lusk_Doyle

Winning races is winning races. You do it during your time against whomever the opposition is. If you win lots then you are considered to be world class. That's a correct consideration. The term world class is not meant to compare you to other athletes from different eras. It's a representation of how you stacked up against others during your time of competing. The fact that the talent that you were up against doesn't compare with others who came before or since is irrelevant.

Weepsie

Yeah, I'm not his biggest fan, but to denigrate Cavendish's achievements as some sort of luck or fluke is stupid.

48 GC stages. Points jersey in all three. multiple classics and a momument. He came second at the worlds only 2 years ago too. Kittel's only 3 years younger and he's never ever going to come close to that. That and he's all he's won on track too just stack up to him being an elite cyclist.

Kittel et al may very well have struggled to hold on to him in those years of domination. You never know these things.

Miklos

Can I just say..... Grant Thomas? I sense shades of this other British Cycling supporter.

Taxuser1

Interesting to chart the fortunes of talented junior cyclists going the British Cycling BC way versus the European model. Take for example Charly Wegelius who like David Millar, Brad Wiggins and Geraint Thomas were top class under age riders, junior internationals and btw Junior Tour stage winners. Wegelius and Millar were excellent TT riders but not BC backed riders forging their own careers on the continent. Whilst Millar was touted as a GT future winner it transpired that he was doping for his best results. Wegelius could do no better than land a Mapei domestique contract and his career flourished in that role only. Similarly talented BC backed Wiggins and Thomas went from focused stellar track careers to Classic, one week tours and ultimately Tour de France success. How did BC as newbies to cycling do this, produce such successful riders that professional teams could not, for example in comparably talented Millar and Wegelius? Its an amazing story.

Weepsie

BC is an all encompassing thing though that looks after development from youth up to Olympics and world level. It's geared entirely towards gold medals and is very heavily funded.

If you read Millars book (I wouldn't recommend it, it's nothing on Rough Ride, or the Fignon book amongst others) he was promising, but he was also learning is trade by BMXing around Hong Kong. Neo-pros are employed to do a job then too, and that's get in breaks get air time, speak to sponsors, fetch bottles.

BC and their cyclists can afford to be a hell of a lot more single minded about the processes and just chase wins.

DonegalBay

Weepsie wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not his biggest fan, but to denigrate Cavendish's achievements as some sort of luck or fluke is stupid.

48 GC stages. Points jersey in all three. multiple classics and a momument. He came second at the worlds only 2 years ago too. Kittel's only 3 years younger and he's never ever going to come close to that. That and he's all he's won on track too just stack up to him being an elite cyclist.

Kittel et al may very well have struggled to hold on to him in those years of domination. You never know these things.

I never said Cavendish wan't elite or world class, in fact I said he belongs up there with the best sprinters of all time. I just think he is a bit over-rated as he didn't have any real opposition for a good 3-4 years. Still world class though.

Your remark about Kittel is exactly the point I am making, Kittel had Cavendish, Sagan etc to compete with. Of course you are not going to win as often when you have World class opposition.

People can say opposition is irrelevant, but I think it is a factor. To take a recent example from another sport, England reached the World Cup semi-final which numbers wise makes them one of the 4 best teams in the World, but a lot of commentators, experts etc, think they are an average side, but due to the poor opposition they met, they overachieved.

Another example in cycling is Carlos Sastre, there are a lot of people who don't rate his Tour win as there were a lot of big names missing that year and it was more down to his opportunistic attack and team dominance on Alpe d'Huez that gave him the win that year. Personally I think any Tour winner is deserving, but there is definitely a feeling that Sastre is overlooked.

If you are happy to put forward numbers to show Cav as the greatest, I am as equally happy to put forward numbers that show once he got some decent opposition, his win ratio dropped off. IMO, that doesn't mean he is not World Class, just that he perhaps is not a great as his numbers would indicate.

Weepsie

DonegalBay wrote: »

If you are happy to put forward numbers to show Cav as the greatest, I am as equally happy to put forward numbers that show once he got some decent opposition, his win ratio dropped off. IMO, that doesn't mean he is not World Class, just that he perhaps is not a great as his numbers would indicate.

It could be that he was at his absolute peak in those years too and had Kittel and Sagan come earlier they'd have been seeing his arse an awful lot.

He's won a stage in every single GC he has entered except this year, TdF 2014 (where he had his massive crash on stage 2), TdF 2007 (where he had crashes in the first 2 days, yet 2 top 10s and dropped out on stage 8) and the 2011 Vuelta (he withdrew after 4 days).

Since 2011 (When Sagan came on scene at the Vuelta) he has won 25 GC stages, 18 from 2012 on. Sagan and Kittlel combined have won 29,. He's beaten these guys, he is absolutely not overrated and to claim so is just nonsense.

Lusk_Doyle

DonegalBay wrote: »

I never said Cavendish wan't elite or world class, in fact I said he belongs up there with the best sprinters of all time. I just think he is a bit over-rated as he didn't have any real opposition for a good 3-4 years. Still world class though.

What? He does but he's overrated but he still is. What are you trying to say?

Edit: your OP says nothing about you thinking him to be world class. It's basically says it was a fluke due to lack of opposition and his team.

sxt

sxt wrote: »

Great Britain may not rule the waves but they rule on two wheels. Respect where respect is due. The massive. funding, investment and elite training academies that were put in place really have paid dividends! In the last 10 years

I dont know where to start

Sir Chris hoy. Six Olympic golds.11 world championships gold. Arguably the greatest track cyclist of all time

Bradley Wiggins, most track medals in Olympic history with eight medals, 5 of them gold. 7 world championships gold. He became the first British cyclist to win TDF in 2012

Jason Kenny has won six Olympic gold medals. Three world championship gold

Laura Kenny(related? ) 4 Olympic gold, 7 gold world championship

Victoria Louise Pendleton, won two Olympic golds, 9 gold world championships


Chris froome has won 4 tour de Frances since 2013, a Giro, and a Vuelta. Arguably the greatest road cyclist of all time. He or another British rider Grant Thomas will win the TDF this year.

Mark Cavendish won 4 world championships gold and 30 stages at the TDF making him one of the best sprinters in road cycling history




I m probably missing a couple of others?

Geraint Thomas!

1 tour de France win

2 Olympic gold

3 world championship gold


Lizzie armestead

3 Olympic gold

eeeee

Lizzie Armistead/Deignan came up outside the team GB academy thing, just a note.
There has been a kind of backlash of late against the Academy, a rival team operating externally to team GB almost (or did I can't remember) beat them in a Team Pursuit at a world cup I think.
Nicole Cooke is another one who came up and was extremely successful outside their system.