Redundancy: Is last in first out normal?

MiddleOne

A number of my work colleagues (different department) were unceremoniously shown the door this week. While nothing has been announced, rumours are rife around the office that a raft of further redundancies are on the way. I haven't been in the company two years yet and i'm worried. A colleague has told me that in our industry it's not normal to adhere to the 'last in first out' convention. I thought that unless they have a very good reason, companies are required to follow this process. I am not the last in in our team so (as we all do similar duties) if I do get the tap on the shoulder in the forthcoming days/weeks, do I have an argument to make?

TIA

brightspark

It is the position that is made "redundant" not the person, the company can use any criteria it wants to determine who remains (unless there is a union who may have agreed procedures).

Usually though a company will use last in first out because of experience etc., but it will depend on who is doing what and of course how well they do it.

_Brian

In fairness would will need to demonstrate a business need not to follow the LIFO rule.
They also need to be meticulous in adhering to whatever system they employ.

Sadly senior managers are awful. Where I worked there was a system employed, I presented the results at a meeting similar to others, senior managers picked over the results identifying people they had a grudge with who they wanted out or those they wanted saved from redundancy.

I promptly volunteered myself as I couldn’t be involved in such shenanigans that affected people’s lives so seriously.

dreamers75

No such thing as a last in 1st out rule. There may be within Unions but that would be overlooked by a company if the last in is more useful than the 1st in and on less money.

As above roles are made redundant not people but companies can and do get creative with that.

beauf

They might get rid a of business unit, and all the roles within it.

One place I was in just stopped doing software development. That whole part of the business, was just chopped off.

TG1

Last in first out is not a rule. Companies can design selection criteria however they want as long as it's quantifiable and they can produce evidence to back up why they pick who they pick If there are roles multiple people have and only some are being made redundant.

Most companies will take length of service into account, but there is no last in first out rule.

troyzer

I was sort of let go from my last company. It became pretty clear to me that one of us was getting the axe and I was worried it might be me. There was one other person in the role with much more experience than me but started later, I never thought he'd get the sack before me.

In the end it didn't matter because I managed to get another job but when I said I had been offered the job to my boss and asked if I should take it he said yes. Meaning I was going to be the odd one out.

So no, there's no requirement to go for last in first out. They'll sack whoever adds the least value.

_Brian

LIFO isn’t a rule, but if a company want to deviate from that they need very clear documented selection criteria and they need to adhere to that.
If an appeal is taken and goes to WRC the company will first have to explain why they didn’t implement LIFO, and then demonstrate the system they employed and how fair it was implemented.
That’s why so many just opt for LIFO, it’s simpler to implement and less blowback.

seamus

As said, LIFO is not a rule. It's usually cheaper though for companies since it means the cheaper employees get shown the door, and any with less than two years' service have no redundancy payment entitlement.

As Brian says, all the company requires is documented selection criteria, and evidence that they stuck to it.

It can be as simple as, "John has been here 40 years, but he has less formal qualifications than Jim who started last week. So bye bye John".

Even if they are using LIFO, I'm not sure that alone is good enough. The basis of it would have to be, "Employees with longer service add more value". LIFO isn't objectively a "fair" selection method on its own.

MiddleOne

_Brian wrote: »

LIFO isn’t a rule, but if a company want to deviate from that they need very clear documented selection criteria and they need to adhere to that.
If an appeal is taken and goes to WRC the company will first have to explain why they didn’t implement LIFO, and then demonstrate the system they employed and how fair it was implemented.
That’s why so many just opt for LIFO, it’s simpler to implement and less blowback.

Thanks. This is what I was getting at. I knew it wasn't a rule as such but I was aware it could be grounds for unfair dismissal. Anyway, the atmosphere has become so toxic at work this week that I can't see a future there for me anyway. The way the first few people were sacked was brutal. They were completely blindsided, got no notice and were stood over as they cleared their desks.

Everyone is on edge and then there's the people talking about who or what department are the most useless and most likely to go. And yes, many of us did ask our managers and none seem to know anything. The incompetence of senior management, which for me is only coming to light, is shocking.

So I am polishing up my CV and jumping ship.

troyzer

MiddleOne wrote: »

Thanks. This is what I was getting at. I knew it wasn't a rule as such but I was aware it could be grounds for unfair dismissal. Anyway, the atmosphere has become so toxic at work this week that I can't see a future there for me anyway. The way the first few people were sacked was brutal. They were completely blindsided, got no notice and were stood over as they cleared their desks.

Everyone is on edge and then there's the people talking about who or what department are the most useless and most likely to go. And yes, many of us did ask our managers and none seem to know anything. The incompetence of senior management, which for me is only coming to light, is shocking.

So I am polishing up my CV and jumping ship.

Would you not wait to see if you get made redundant first? Or volunteer for it? No sense in resigning if you can get a payout.

MiddleOne

Thanks but considering the time it'll take to find jobs I want to apply for, go for interviews, etc., I'll still be there when the next round of cuts come. I don't want to be left standing outside the office with a box of my desk crap in my hands wondering 'what now'; although a lot of my colleagues we at home last night retrieving the latest version of their CVs too

Anyway, I'm not there two years so not entitled to anything other than my unused holidays and money in lieu of notice.

witchgirl26

MiddleOne wrote: »

Thanks. This is what I was getting at. I knew it wasn't a rule as such but I was aware it could be grounds for unfair dismissal. Anyway, the atmosphere has become so toxic at work this week that I can't see a future there for me anyway. The way the first few people were sacked was brutal. They were completely blindsided, got no notice and were stood over as they cleared their desks.

Everyone is on edge and then there's the people talking about who or what department are the most useless and most likely to go. And yes, many of us did ask our managers and none seem to know anything. The incompetence of senior management, which for me is only coming to light, is shocking.

So I am polishing up my CV and jumping ship.

It could only be ground for unfair dismissal if there was no rationale behind it. And with companies doing large amount of redundancies, they're going to have done their homework as they don't want to face a multitude of claims.

I know what you mean about notice and being watch clear their desks but that can happen in certain industries where there could be a confidentiality clause. For example, if I was to leave my job to go to a competitor, I would be put straight onto gardening leave as I have access to sensitive information. I would be watched clearing out my desk to ensure I didn't take anything with me.

Managers often won't know anything as they might be on the block themselves. Decisions about redundancy are made much further up the chain than them usually. And even if they did know, they might have to keep the information confidential until it is confirmed and released, they won't be able to give anyone a "heads-up" as it could result in them being fired themselves.

brightspark

MiddleOne wrote: »

many of us did ask our managers and none seem to know anything. The incompetence of senior management, which for me is only coming to light, is shocking.

So I am polishing up my CV and jumping ship.

I've learned from experience that some managers know but are instructed not to tell anyone.

Also if more than a certain percentage of workers are being made redundant the company should enter a consultation period, not that much consultation usually takes place, but it does create a notice period.

If your company is planning more redundancies they may actually facilitate you with with your job search by allowing you time off if needed.

TG1

brightspark wrote: »

I've learned from experience that some managers know but are instructed not to tell anyone.

Also if more than a certain percentage of workers are being made redundant the company should enter a consultation period, not that much consultation usually takes place, but it does create a notice period.

If your company is planning more redundancies they may actually facilitate you with with your job search by allowing you time off if needed.

Absoloutly, if more than 5 employees where 21-49 are employed, 10 employees where 50-99 are employed, 10% of the employees where 100-299 are employed or 30 employees where 300 or more are employed are going to be affected they should be notifying the minister for employment affairs and entering into a consultation period with the employees.

If this is the case they are also obliged to provide you with:
The reasons for the redundancy
The number and descriptions of the employees affected
The number and descriptions of employees normally employed
The period in which the redundancies will happen
The criteria for selection of employees for redundancy
The method of calculating any redundancy payment

MiddleOne

Thanks for all your posts. It was all very helpful. I'll update you on my employment status soon.