Is this the start of the end for diesel?

_Brian

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Similar to the way congestion charges are levied in London.
The dirty diesel car in this house has just left for its daily commute to Dublin, 410000 kms, engine clutch and gearbox never touched, except for oil changes , still on the original timing chain, that's why ppl like diesels. Unless there is a massive increase in charging infrastructure and a 300km range in all weather's, EVs are still going to be hard to sell

Absolutely.

Why not charge access to major urban centres for everything except EV, this would drive sales of EV while leaving the option of diesel available to those who really need it.

Truth is though our government will look at this solely from a revenue perspective and so will just load the costs onto diesels, it saves the bother of worrying about infrastructure for EV.

road_high

Sickening reading this article- cars are already taxed to the bloody hilt here and all this is another excuse to load even more tax on helpless motorists- if they gave a flying ****e about the "environment" then reduce the excise, VRT and tax on all petrol and petrol cars and incentivize people that way.
But that won't happen as the anti diesel frenzy has taken hold.

heroics

_Brian wrote: »

Absolutely.

Why not charge access to major urban centres for everything except EV, this would drive sales of EV while leaving the option of diesel available to those who really need it.

Truth is though our government will look at this solely from a revenue perspective and so will just load the costs onto diesels, it saves the bother of worrying about infrastructure for EV.

Great if you live in the center of the town/city and have access to a driveway. Useless if you park on the road etc. or commute long distances into town and have no charger near you.

unkel

R.O.R wrote: »

Really?

I couldn't get more than 2km driving in EV mode in the new model demo I had a couple of years ago.

Or, are you talking about the plug-in hybrid version?

Sounds about right. The latest plug-in hybrid (not self-charging ) has a bigger battery and more range.

unkel

_Brian wrote: »

Until there are examples of large family saloon cars with 4-600km ranges for reasonable money they are not going to become mainstream.

Not a large family saloon, a small crossover (hugely popular segment in Ireland), the Hyundai Kona EV 64kWh has a real life range of 470km (WLTP) and will be in the showrooms any day now

tabby aspreme

ford2600 wrote: »

The image would work with an EV driver; do you like skinny lattes and craft beer?

I'm afraid not, black coffee "not PC" I know, Barry's tea leaf tea, and most of that pale ale is pure $*****.

heroics

They also have to make the EVs look good. There are very few that I think look even ok. From this list I dont think there is any that would appeal to me.

Maybe an i8 but not very practical for the kids

KevinCavan

I’ve never owned a diesel vehicle and I can understand the annoyance of those that do. Not so long ago we were told to buy diesel and then they decided to slap a load of tax on diesel. Rightly or wrongly now diesel is becoming a dirty word like plastic is. Deisel will become very uncool, like plastic straws and the government will jump on the bandwagon. Only a matter of time before tax on diesel vehicles is made prohibitive.

R.O.R

jester77 wrote: »

They have started banning OLDER diesel vehicles on some of the busier streets here in Hamburg, it is closely monitored and they have made a lot of cash from all the fines so far. It's only a matter time until diesel disappears, people are not going to consider diesel when you are limited to where you can drive.

FYP - EU6 compliant diesels (pretty much all sold in the last 4 years) are not subject to the ban, but that's doesn't make for such a sensational headline.

Shefwedfan

KevinCavan wrote: »

I’ve never owned a diesel vehicle and I can understand the annoyance of those that do. Not so long ago we were told to buy diesel and then they decided to slap a load of tax on diesel. Rightly or wrongly now diesel is becoming a dirty word like plastic is. Deisel will become very uncool, like plastic straws and the government will jump on the bandwagon. Only a matter of time before tax on diesel vehicles is made prohibitive.

Maybe people are confused. This is not going to affect existing cars. The new system will be for new cars. So when people are going to market to swap for the latest 192 etc they will see the cost of diesel rising version alternative like hybrid/PHEV/petrol/diesel.

The person in their 2012 Mondeo is not going to give a sh*t.....

This is the same reaction as everyone had in 2006/2007. Oh I won't be able to do this/that/other. Guess what? 1st Jan rolled around in 2008 and nothing really changed. Except the tax on diesel fell like a stone and everyone bought a brand new diesel because of the cheap tax.....what is the difference here?

I have always said their is a place in market for all fuels. That is why I always recommend on the Motor forum to pick your fuel first and then pick your car. THe issue for the last 10 years is everyone went diesel and 95% or more should never have gotten a diesel car. By the looks of it the WLTP will actually open the market again to different fuels.

The person who does huge mileage and needs to pull a trailer of course will still need a diesel. The sales man who travels the country on motorway still needs a diesel. It will make sense for them to pay a little extra for the diesel due to the TCO with the fuel saving.

The people living and commuting 60km round trip and 1 trip a year of 100km don't need a diesel. So when they go to swap their diesel they will be forced to look at alternatives like hybrid/hydrogen or :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: electric. The days of straight petrol are numbered as everyone is moving towards hybrid which makes sense.

What is so scary about that?

Shefwedfan

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Fully agree. The range of a typical EV would probably suit 90% of journeys for nearly everyone in the country.

But no one wants to get stuck for charge on the other 10%.

When I can comfortably get from Dublin to Cork and back, I'll buy an EV.

Taking electric out of it

Even if petrol/diesel...how many times have you driven from Dublin to Cork and back without a stop?

Or even a better question, why would you drive to Cork and then not stay the night?

Shefwedfan

This shouldn't really be a discussion about electric v diesel....that is not the point of it. We can do another thread on that....

cython

Larbre34 wrote: »

Not to mention its whole life environmental footprint far exceeds that of a combustion engined car due to the dirty business of strip mining and end-of-life disposal of the rare earth metals in the batteries. Also in case of a PHEV if you charge off the national grid in Ireland you are consuming juice that is ~90% non renewable.

If you are suggesting that 90% of Irish electricity comes from non-renewable sources, that's just not accurate. In 2015 over 27% of electricity produced came from renewable sources, and that should only be increasing. Now if you are factoring in fossil fuels to come up with a blended percentage of the overall energy consumed by the car, then that's going to be only representative of one of many usage patterns.

allthedoyles

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This shouldn't really be a discussion about electric v diesel....that is not the point of it. We can do another thread on that....

Its difficult to know what the point of the thread is . The opening post indicates its about the Green Party's proposals .
They have 2 members . I don't think they will be able to change the world .

If you ran a poll it might answer you question quicker

ELM327

allthedoyles wrote: »

Its difficult to know what the point of the thread is . The opening post indicates its about the Green Party's proposals .
They have 2 members . I don't think they will be able to change the world .

If you ran a poll it might answer you question quicker

The point of the thread, I assume, is discussing the death of diesel as a fuel for applications it should not be used for, due to the upcoming emission measurement changes under WLTP - which will be used for taxation and VRT calculations. Resulting in increased prices for diesels based on realistic emissions value. We have to change to WLTP based taxation by 2021.

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Guess what? 1st Jan rolled around in 2008 and nothing really changed.

Well, nothing actually changed at all. The changes weren't until the 1st of July

DaveyDave

tabby aspreme wrote: »

One of the negatives of owning an EV in an urban area is the difficulty of having your own charger, if you can only park on the street

Yeah this is a real issue. An awful lot of new houses are being built without driveways just unassigned parking spaces outside. Imagine not being able to have an EV because there's 3-4 taxis belonging to the house next to you or a previous tenant abandoned their car.

I don't understand why so many new housing estates in the suburbs are being built like this.

Gregor Samsa

cython wrote: »

In 2015 over 27% of electricity produced came from renewable sources, and that should only be increasing.

Exactly. In 2016, it was already up to 40%

Source: https://www.electricireland.ie/business/help/efficiency/fuel-mix-disclosure

9935452

DaveyDave wrote: »

tabby aspreme wrote: »

One of the negatives of owning an EV in an urban area is the difficulty of having your own charger, if you can only park on the street

Yeah this is a real issue. An awful lot of new houses are being built without driveways just unassigned parking spaces outside. Imagine not being able to have an EV because there's 3-4 taxis belonging to the house next to you or a previous tenant abandoned their car.

I don't understand why so many new housing estates in the suburbs are being built like this.

The builders were able to squeeze in more houses that way.
I was told of a housing estate where the builder took a foot off each garage to fit in an extra house at the end. You couldnt get out of the car in your gagage as a result

AlphaOmega1

In my opinion Diesel is done. The future of motoring is electric long term but in our near future the current low range EVs will satisfy most motorists needs while efficient turbocharged/supercharged petrols with HCCI, cylinder deactivation, variable compression ratios etc will be the norm. Can't wait to see the devils fuel absent from the pumps.

vectra

AlphaOmega1 wrote: »

In my opinion Diesel is done. The future of motoring is electric long term but in our near future the current low range EVs will satisfy most motorists needs while efficient turbocharged/supercharged petrols with HCCI, cylinder deactivation, variable compression ratios etc will be the norm. Can't wait to see the devils fuel absent from the pumps.

I would gladly go electric under certain circumstances.

1)
Distance. My son lives 300km from my house so realistically I need something that would have a range of at least 500km ( I assume these distances are not tried in winter with aircon,lights,heated rear window,heated seats etc. in operation?

2)
Cost,
So far anything that is promising to give that range is ludicrous money for Joe soap.

3)

My house on on the street with on street parking, How would I charge my car up before a trip?

For now I would prefer to stick with the tried and tested diesel even though my normal trips are very short.

professore

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Most people in Ireland drive diesel because of cheap tax....they get cheap tax because the engine is supposed to be clean. If the WLTP test shows that and people move to alternatives then it is better for everyone.....

Incorrect. We get cheap tax because of lower CO2 emissions of diesel, which is still the case. Nothing to do with the other pollutants.

Joe 90

9935452 wrote: »

The most well known hybrid is the prius.
Little known fact is it will go 12 miles on a charge of the good battery.

A neighbour of mine has just bough tone which is a few years old, I think about 3-4 years. The engine always starts when he moves off which suggest to me that the battery is past its best.

On the other hand Jap specialist that services my ISF reckons the the Prius is the most trouble free car on the market.

n97 mini

Regular Prius goes about a mile in EV-only mode. The manual says it's not the best use of the battery.

Joe 90 wrote: »

A neighbour of mine has just bough tone which is a few years old, I think about 3-4 years. The engine always starts when he moves off which suggest to me that the battery is past its best.

If the throttle position sensor is past a certain point the engine will come on. My wife's heavy right foot made sure ours did the same as your neighbour's.

mikeecho

two cars in my household (plus a classic and a bike both petrol)
the cars.. one diesel, one petrol.

if we are to change our cars, one would still have to be a diesel., due to my daily commute.
the second car... well.. we could go electric, or stick with petrol.

I think we'll be sticking with fosel fuel for another 5yrs

demanufactured

I love me daysul...
Love me dpf..
Love.me egr...
Love me black smoke...
Love me boo...

Long live the daysul.

Shefwedfan

allthedoyles wrote: »

Its difficult to know what the point of the thread is . The opening post indicates its about the Green Party's proposals .
They have 2 members . I don't think they will be able to change the world .

If you ran a poll it might answer you question quicker

I reference the green party in OP as they brought in the new tax system. In 2008 the point of the system was to try and clean up the envionment....it has failed so far but potentially that system will actually start to work correctly when the WLTP rules come into play......well maybe

Due to the WLTP system the days of cheap tax on a diesel are over. To be honest it is already changing....see below

https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/green-with-envy-how-mondeo-petrol-hybrid-price-is-9000-below-diesel-36816122.html

ShadowHearth

I could not care less about diesel, I dont need want one, but if you want one, then more power to you.
The thing that worries me now, is that the price on cars will go even higher and as we know, Ireland is already very damn expensive for motorists.
The other issue is that they will be very strict with trim levels and packages. The ticking off options you want will be gone and you will be forced to one or another trim just because you want one particular extra, but that trim comes with loads of other stuff you dont need, but you will still pay for it.

bazz26

Ford dealers were selling the Mondeo Vignale diesel last year for 32k straight with no trade in and there are a few advertised by dealers even now at 35k/36k. What's more interesting is that same dealers are advertising the hybrid Mondeo for nearly the same money now. Either way the Indo unsurprisingly have their facts and figures wrong again. They gotta get their sensationalist headline swallowed though.

John_Rambo

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/drivers-could-be-taxed-on-distance-travelled-860491.html

Here's the start of high tax on diesel. Will they be phased out and pretty much worthless in a few years time just like some petrol cars are now?

bazz26

I don't see how to be honest. If your high mileage diesel driver switched to an EV under that system then they would still be taxed on their distance. Unless they allow you to claim VAT back on electricity bills then the diesel driver would still be better off, no?

I read this article as sticking 2 fingers up to EV drivers who went out and bought their car thinking they would have cheap running costs. The Government make money from the motorist and want that sustained irrespective of what way their vehicle is propelled. It was never going to be any other way.

Henry Ford III

Agreed. Motoring is a huge cash cow for the exchequer, and come what may they'll take whatever steps are necessary to maintain that income stream.

John_Rambo

bazz26 wrote: »

I don't see how to be honest. If your high mileage diesel driver switched to an EV under that system then they would still be taxed on their distance. Unless they allow you to claim VAT back on electricity bills then the diesel driver would still be better off, no?

I read this article as sticking 2 fingers up to EV drivers who went out and bought their car thinking they would have cheap running costs. The Government make money from the motorist and want that sustained irrespective of what way their vehicle is propelled. It was never going to be any other way.

Yeah. Bang on.

ELM327

bazz26 wrote: »

I read this article as sticking 2 fingers up to EV drivers who went out and bought their car thinking they would have cheap running costs. The Government make money from the motorist and want that sustained irrespective of what way their vehicle is propelled. It was never going to be any other way.

As one of those EV drivers I concur wholeheartedly

John_Rambo

I still thing they'll punish diesel drivers more than any other.

markpb

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I don't mean to be smart but are EV owners that stupid to think that the government wasn't always going to do that?

I don't think anyone assumed it would last forever but I assumed it would last long enough to give EV enough of a push that they made up a sizeable percentage of the vehicle fleet. We're nowhere near that now.

I'm confused by the article. The push for the changes seems to be reducing our emissions without costing the exchequer too much. EV cars are a good way (not a great way) of reducing emissions and they do cost the exchequer but penalising them in the same way as diesels seems to be a retrograde step.

bazz26

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I don't mean to be smart but are EV owners that stupid to think that the government wasn't always going to do that?

I don't own an EV but I'm sure the lower running costs of plugging in over filling up would have been a big selling point to many EV owners.

Henry Ford III

John_Rambo wrote: »

I still thing they'll punish diesel drivers more than any other.

They'll gradually punish owners of older "dirty" diesels I'd expect.

The manufacturers will come up with cleaner and cleaner engines too. I think diesel is far from dead.

gctest50

Pay by distance driven instead of the simpler stick it onto the price of fuel ?

Cute way to get tachographs fitted to cars ( or similar "insurance box" yokes )

Driver fatigue must kill as many as dui etc

Needles73

demanufactured wrote: »

I love me daysul...
Love me dpf..
Love.me egr...
Love me black smoke...
Love me boo...

Long live the daysul.

I love me batteries....
’ll love me higher electric taxes that are coming....
I love the fact me electric gets the electric mostly from fossil fuels....
I love me electric gets me a chance to drink coffee in places I’d never normally have to stop.....
I love the fact that residuals on hybrids will be even less than diesels once production ramps up....

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I don't mean to be smart but are EV owners that stupid to think that the government wasn't always going to do that?

Of course it was down the line but with less than 1% of the fleet running on EV and the 2020 targets looming it was not assumed to be coming in for some time yet.
Especially in a probable election year

ELM327

Needles73 wrote: »

I love me batteries....
’ll love me higher electric taxes that are coming....
I love the fact me electric gets the electric mostly from fossil fuels....
I love me electric gets me a chance to drink coffee in places I’d never normally have to stop.....
I love the fact that residuals on hybrids will be even less than diesels once production ramps up....

Enjoy breathing carcinogens do we? :D:D

Shefwedfan

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114?mode=amp&localLinksEnabled=false

Better article to read......

For those jumping all over threads saying that diesel will not be hit in the next few budgets......

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has already indicated that carbon taxes will rise in the October budget, saying the State will have to “grasp the nettle” to reach its climate-change commitments.

Overall, environmental taxes in Ireland are projected to yield €3.55 billion this year. Excise rates on petrol and diesel have remained unchanged since 2012, with 58.7 cent excise and a 4.6 carbon charge on a litre of petrol. The corresponding rates for diesel are 47.9 cent and 5.3 cent.

The Department of Finance tax strategy papers, which include the study of environment tax, says there is a “strong environmental rationale” for eliminating this gap.

In response to the question about electric cars users been stupid. Well no every electric car user knew it would not last. It could never be sustained long-term.

The question is more to diesel drivers. Are they stupid enough to think the extremely low tax on their car and fuel was going to last??

Edit: Based on the comment above, yes they are

Needles73

ELM327 wrote: »

Enjoy breathing carcinogens do we? :D:D

Nah, they only come from the power plants now !!! I’m miles away
........and the battery plants

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114?mode=amp&localLinksEnabled=false

Better article to read......

For those jumping all over threads saying that diesel will not be hit in the next few budgets......

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has already indicated that carbon taxes will rise in the October budget, saying the State will have to “grasp the nettle” to reach its climate-change commitments.

Overall, environmental taxes in Ireland are projected to yield €3.55 billion this year. Excise rates on petrol and diesel have remained unchanged since 2012, with 58.7 cent excise and a 4.6 carbon charge on a litre of petrol. The corresponding rates for diesel are 47.9 cent and 5.3 cent.

The Department of Finance tax strategy papers, which include the study of environment tax, says there is a “strong environmental rationale” for eliminating this gap.

In response to the question about electric cars users been stupid. Well no every electric car user knew it would not last. It could never be sustained long-term.

The question is more to diesel drivers. Are they stupid enough to think the extremely low tax on their car and fuel was going to last??

Edit: Based on the comment above, yes they are

I've had you on ignore for the last while and to be honest I can't remember why.
I've seen your posts on this issue and you're one of the few talking sense

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Of course it was down the line but with less than 1% of the fleet running on EV and the 2020 targets looming it was not assumed to be coming in for some time yet.
Especially in a probable election year

This is one article. Similar released when Renua talked about it....

It will be 2025 before this even starts to get implemented


Plenty of time to keep screwing all the daysel drivers:P

ELM327

Needles73 wrote: »

Nah, they only come from the power plants now !!! I’m miles away
........and the battery plants

Yes, and a) less of them and b) EVs are powered in part by renewable energy. If there was better grid storage and (dare we say it) nuclear, we'd run on completely zero emissions. Have you tried running your ICE on zero emissions?

Shefwedfan

Needles73 wrote: »

Nah, they only come from the power plants now !!! I’m miles away
........and the battery plants

With solar PV grant available now, soon I will be generating my own fuel for my car :P:P:P:P

Try putting a diesel refinery on the roof of your house

P.S you do realise diesel has to be refined, which is far more harmful to the environment than any battery ever will be.....google it....

Needles73

Shefwedfan wrote: »

With solar PV grant available now, soon I will be generating my own fuel for my car :P:P:P:P

Try putting a diesel refinery on the roof of your house

P.S you do realise diesel has to be refined, which is far more harmful to the environment than any battery ever will be.....google it....

I work for an oil company, including time at refineries . Plus petrol is even more refined for the hybrid user. Time for a Solar panel tax methinks !!!!

ELM327

Needles73 wrote: »

I work for an oil company

Explains a lot. Thanks for that.