Fired with no notice

Fann Linn

If, as the OP alleges the place is informal and social, I'd suggest holding fire on unfair dismissals for now and chance ringing his boss after the weekend and see if a face to face could be arranged to try and resolve the issue.


There does appear to be precedence whereby printing for non payment has been tolerated by the employer plus the op alleges no disciplinary procedures have been followed so a WRC or rights commissioner will see this as mitigation if it goes further.

Ball appears to be in the OPs court.

Liam McPoyle

Give her the weekend to calm down.

Go in to see her on Monday and apologise. Tell her that you only used pieces of scrap paper that were recycling bound anyway so you didn't think it would be a problem. As it was only 20 odd and she was on holidays at the time it slipped your mind to tell her as you did not want to disturb her for something you felt was trivial. Apologise again and leave it at that. If she is any way reasonable then she will realise how frivolous the whole thing is and will rescind the sacking.

Twelve Bar Blues

JayZeus wrote: »

It doesn’t matter what you think is fair or reasonable, and your pay has no bearing on it either. You had no right to use your employers materials without her consent. It’s black and white. You stole from your employer and she is fully entitled to exercise her right to throw you out using summary dismissal for your gross misconduct.

This couldn't be farther from what is correct.
First off, even if the employee and employer and the WRC all agree that the employee stole and should be fired, it must be done correctly. By firing a worker in this manner you are almost certainly leaving yourself open to being penalised.

I have personally experienced this, and I have seen it with a co-worker.
As unfair as it may seem, an employee has protections whilst being disciplined or being fired. Processes must be followed. Imagine the employee was accused of stealing, and unceremoniously fired with no chance of discussion and it was then found out to be untrue??

221B

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP has been dismissed because he/she took their employers materials, used their equipment to benefit a third party without permission and was caught. The OP is entirely at fault and their boss can not reasonably be expected to believe that the OP, working freelance as a designer, has not done the same or printed greater quantity of materials for others in the past. It was a stupid thing to do.

I've proven time and again to be a trustworthy employee, I 100% f'ed up and i'm not denying it, I'd be pissed too if I was her but she knows I've never done something like this before because she checks the print logs. (I also exclusively design book covers for my other clients so I wouldn't have needed to print anything for them.)

Postgrad10

Postgrad10 wrote: »

It's like a small craft business from home that sells on a website called etsy.

She sells crafts. She doesn’t give them away.

It’s a business. Whether she’s registered, makes any profit or pays taxes on the income or not, it’s still a business.

Fann Linn

Lots of people on here don't know a lot about unfair dismissals or disciplinary procedures. Could be costly if some of these posters are employers.

Pelvis

Pelvis wrote:

So if I got into my CEOs office and punch him in the face, he's required to follow an investigative process whereby he has to allege I punched him?

He would get you taken from the building and then send you a letter informing you that you have been put on leave pending a dismissal hearing with HR I think.

Twelve Bar Blues

Twelve Bar Blues wrote: »

This couldn't be farther from what is correct.
First off, even if the employee and employer and the WRC all agree that the employee stole and should be fired, it must be done correctly. By firing a worker in this manner you are almost certainly leaving yourself open to being penalised.

I have personally experienced this, and I have seen it with a co-worker.
As unfair as it may seem, an employee has protections whilst being disciplined or being fired. Processes must be followed. Imagine the employee was accused of stealing, and unceremoniously fired with no chance of discussion and it was then found out to be untrue??

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

Postgrad10

JayZeus wrote: »

She sells crafts. She doesn’t give them away.

It’s a business. Whether she’s registered, makes any profit or pays taxes on the income or not, it’s still a business.

Did I say otherwise? Someone posted that they didn't know what etsy was, I explained what etsy was.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Lots of people on here don't know a lot about unfair dismissals or disciplinary procedures. Could be costly if some of these posters are employers.

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

Fann Linn

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

No. The onus is on the employer to follow grievance procedures. You can admit robbing AIB to the gardai but they still have to prove it.

Postgrad10

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

I took it that the OP originally denied doing the order ( or forgot) and that's why she was fired.

Fann Linn

JayZeus wrote: »

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

I agree she 'stole'. Even the op agrees. However there is due process.

A case was only highlighted a few weeks back where allegedly a manager was rostering staff in return for seeking sexual favours from women.

He was rightly sacked however 'due process' wasn't followed and he received an award.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. The onus is on the employer to follow grievance procedures. You can admit robbing AIB to the gardai but they still have to prove it.

Do you want to read that back to yourself? Summary dismissal for gross misconduct is perfectly legal. If you work in a print studio and produce and take printed goods/materials without permission you have stolen from your employer. If you acknowledge taking them once caught, you can make all the excuses and rationalise whatever way you want and you’ll still be subject to a summary dismissal if the employer sees fit.

Jack Moore

ludalyni wrote: »

Based on the information you've provided, you would have a slam dunk unfair dismissal case against your former employer.

While you might have done something wrong, you still have a statutory right to be brought through some form of process before being dismissed (ie investigation, right to be told of the complaint, disciplinary meeting with an opportunity to put forward your side of the story, appeal etc etc). I recommend you get yourself to a good solicitor or go to the Workplace Relations Commission website for more info.

The op stole and if they ever want to work in print again they should apologise and move on.

Adamocovic

Don't know much from the legal standpoint so can't comment on that.

Seems odd that despite the close nit group and relationships you have that she is willing to fire you straight away for that, also considering the hours you say you work for the price.

If you printed a lot of business cards for another company you were working for or moving to I'd understand the anger but 20 business cards for your sisters and her friends endeavour seems very small. You should have asked for permission no doubt but it seems like a little thing to create such a big reaction in my eyes.

Not really aware of process of dismissal but that sounds very informal and not by the book, also the comment of not giving you a reference is very strong reaction, I would have assumed you would have been called for a meeting to discuss the situation and behaviour before she came to her conclusion, but the fact she sat on this, did some odd Colombo style confirmation goes to show she had her mind made up.

Jack Moore

Fann Linn wrote: »

I agree she 'stole'. Even the op agrees. However there is due process.

A case was only highlighted a few weeks back where allegedly a manager was rostering staff in return for seeking sexual favours from women.

He was rightly sacked however 'due process' wasn't followed and he received an award.

Link please

cup of tea

JayZeus wrote: »

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

Just a general response as opposed to specifically referring to the OP's specific scenario.I deal with employment law. Your comments are completely off the mark, I see above you were corrected however you seem to have ignored the corrections.

This is the very reason why legal advice isn't permitted on boards. The prescribed process must be followed or else the employer is in dodgy territory. Similar to landlord/tenant law, if your tenant has stopped paying rent, you can't just decided to turf all their belongings out the door (even if you feel you 'are in the right'), you must follow the correct procedure or youre in hot water.

221B

221B wrote: »

I've proven time and again to be a trustworthy employee, I 100% f'ed up and i'm not denying it, I'd be pissed too if I was her but she knows I've never done something like this before because she checks the print logs. (I also exclusively design book covers for my other clients so I wouldn't have needed to print anything for them.)

Yet in this instance you proved to your boss that you’re prepared to take what is hers, use what is hers, give it to your sister, fail to say anything and then look for an angle you can use against the person you’ve shown cannot trust you.

I don’t think you’ll ever do the same again but it’s downright foolish to think you have given your boss any option on how she must act. You stole from her and got fired. It’s all on you. Learn from it and get on with your life.

Fann Linn

Jack Moore wrote: »

Link please

Im on my phone however just google: Unfair dismissal, sex case ireland. And its the first result.

sexmag

JayZeus wrote: »

Yet in this instance you proved to your boss that you’re prepared to take what is hers, use what is hers, give it to your sister, fail to say anything and then look for an angle you can use against the person you’ve shown cannot trust you.

I don’t think you’ll ever do the same again but it’s downright foolish to think you have given your boss any option on how she must act. You stole from her and got fired. It’s all on you. Learn from it and get on with your life.

Are you actually reading any of the responses in this thread to you? It's been pointed out numerous times to you, even by cup of tea above who works in employment law that the correct process was not followed.

This isn't America,people can't just be fired on the spot and that's it,op should have been suspended until a hearing was had and then fired based on the evidence.

You are way to clouded by your incorrect notion of law

davo10

Fann Linn wrote: »

Lots of people on here don't know a lot about unfair dismissals or disciplinary procedures. Could be costly if some of these posters are employers.

As an employer, I know you are correct, due process/disciplinary hearing must be undertaken and the employee given the opportunity to respond. There is no doubt the op would have a strong (perhaps not ironclad) case for UD. But, the op did something wrong, and no doubt theft will be put forward as the reason for dismissal, and the employer has concrete proof.

Many here have said there is a loose, informal policy at work, but I very much doubt that extends to the op being allowed to provide material for her freelance clients free of charge. Whether the op agrees or not, her sister runs a business and the op provided material free of charge to one of her other clients without her employers knowledge nor consent. And that is why she would be branded a thief by her employer to justify the dismissal.

goat2

221B wrote: »

I've been working in a tiny print studio for the last two years, there's only three of us, the boss, myself and another coworker. I've worked three or four days a week from the start depending on how busy it is, I freelance as a graphic designer the other days of the week.

It's a pretty unconventional work place, there isn't really any boss/employee dynamic and we see each other outside of work as well, it's always felt more like friends working together. It's only a part time job but it's such a big part of my life I moved back in with my parents to be closer to the studio.

I like to think I'm a good employee, able to come in at a moments notice, working even when my dad was in the hospital, staying until 9 or 10 at night sometimes and working a lot of unpaid hours to help out my coworker when it was busy. I've been doing graphic designs jobs for my boss for the last year or so as well, I only get paid a little more than minimum wage which is about a tenth of what I charge my other clients but I've never really minded since I enjoyed working there.

Long story short, my boss was away for a couple months on annual leave so I was working in the studio by myself. My sister has a tiny Etsy shop where she sells homemade earrings, she couldn't afford business cards and begged me to print off a few at the studio. I designed them at home and printed them in my own time using scrap card. In hindsight I definitely should've asked my boss first, that's completely on me, but it was a 10 minute job and she'd always allowed me to print personal things before. She was also on a boat at the time with spotty reception.

Fast forward to today, she's been acting weird for the last month or so, being really stand offish and straight up ignoring me at times. I didn't think much of it, assumed she was going through something personal. She asks me to come into work early, I do and she greets me like normal, asks how my weekend was etc., then she asks if she can look at my keys so I give them to her. She comes back and that's when she tells me she knows i've printed those business cards. I had no idea what she was talking about, I'd forgotten all about them, but then she confronts me with the 'evidence'. A print list that said a file had been printed that she didn't recognise, she had also ordered a pair of my sisters earrings under a presumably false name to compare the card stock of the business card that came with them with the card we have in the studio. She was acting like I'd murdered her dog in front of her instead of printing something without permission. She'd taken my keys to the studio and said I wouldn't be getting a reference because I'd stolen from her.

I'm assuming this means I'm fired but I've had zero notice, I know what I did was wrong and I apologised profusely but I don't know what to do next, do I ask for my P45? I'm hesitant to contact her since the whole situation has shaken me quite badly. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

I think that if, you had asked permission, she would have let go, and you are two yrs there, not a long time , since it was part time, also I would like to ask, have you been a long time friend , neighbour, before you started working there, I cannot answer if it is unfair or not, did you supply the ink, and was there a lot of graphics and colours on the cards,

Diceicle

JayZeus wrote: »

You used her materials and equipment to produce a product which her business produces for the purpose of selling, without making any reasonable attempt to obtain permission, without charging even a small fee for the printing and without ever mentioning it to her.

You should have emailed or texted asking for her permission. Your sister could have waited until you heard back. You took materials, used her print machinery and consumables and denied her any opportunity to charge for it and worse still, you kept it secret from her. You knew you were wrong to do it when you did it.

It doesn’t matter what you think is fair or reasonable, and your pay has no bearing on it either. You had no right to use your employers materials without her consent. It’s black and white. You stole from your employer and she is fully entitled to exercise her right to throw you out using summary dismissal for your gross misconduct.

She doesn’t trust you. You are a thief as far as she’s concerned and nobody will punish her for firing you on the spot. You have no defense and no claim.

I see the high and mighty brigade have arrived....

sexmag

davo10 wrote: »

As an employer, I know you are correct, due process/disciplinary hearing must be undertaken and the employee given the opportunity to respond. There is no doubt the op would have a strong (perhaps not ironclad) case for UD. But, the op did something wrong, and no doubt theft will be put forward as the reason for dismissal, and the employer has concrete proof.

Many here have said there is a loose, informal policy at work, but I very much doubt that extends to the op being allowed to provide material for her freelance clients free of charge. Whether the op agrees or not, her sister runs a business and the op provided material free of charge to one of her other clients without her employers knowledge nor consent. And that is why she would be branded a thief by her employer to justify the dismissal.

It may justify the dismissal but to be there their boss needed to follow the correct process,not doing that puts the problem now on the employees door

BrianBoru00

JayZeus wrote: »

Yet in this instance you proved to your boss that you’re prepared to take what is hers, use what is hers, give it to your sister, fail to say anything and then look for an angle you can use against the person you’ve shown cannot trust you.

I don’t think you’ll ever do the same again but it’s downright foolish to think you have given your boss any option on how she must act. You stole from her and got fired. It’s all on you. Learn from it and get on with your life.

You're phrasing it to suit your own narrative there.

Theft in this situation is certainly not black and white.

Summary dismissal - OP I presume you were given in writing . . . from citizens advice
"The Workplace Relations Commission's Code of Practice: Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures states that employers should have written grievance and disciplinary procedures and they should give employees copies of these at the start of their employment."

If not then the boss is on much shakier ground.

ALSO : If the boss has been "acting weird" for the past month so the assumption is that she has known about this incident for that length then the boss is on shakier ground also - Why if someone was to be summarily dismissed due to being untrustworthy were they let continue working there and more importantly retain keys to the business??


My advice to the OP would be to contact the boss and ask to meet her for a chat, explain her side and that she did not at the time see the conflict of interest in printing for another business as it was "just her sister" , clarify that she has never done anything like that previously (from my reading so far she hasn't) and ask her to reconsider.

Fann Linn

davo10 wrote: »

As an employer, I know you are correct, due process/disciplinary hearing must be undertaken and the employee given the opportunity to respond. There is no doubt the op would have a strong (perhaps not ironclad) case for UD. But, the op did something wrong, and no doubt theft will be put forward as the reason for dismissal, and the employer has concrete proof.

Many here have said there is a loose, informal policy at work, but I very much doubt that extends to the op being allowed to provide material for her freelance clients free of charge. Whether the op agrees or not, her sister runs a business and the op provided material free of charge to one of her other clients without her employers knowledge nor consent. And that is why she would be branded a thief by her employer to justify the dismissal.

I fully agree with you and am definitely not condoning this. I was just pointing out the necessary procedures required. In fact, my first post on this thread was for the op to forget UD and to try and resolve this amicably if this place is as social as the op describes.

cup of tea

cup of tea wrote: »

Just a general response as opposed to specifically referring to the OP's specific scenario.I deal with employment law. Your comments are completely off the mark, I see above you were corrected however you seem to have ignored the corrections.

This is the very reason why legal advice isn't permitted on boards. The prescribed process must be followed or else the employer is in dodgy territory. Similar to landlord/tenant law, if your tenant has stopped paying rent, you can't just decided to turf all their belongings out the door (even if you feel you 'are in the right'), you must follow the correct procedure or youre in hot water.

I’m not arguing generalities. I’m addressing the OP and those who seems to think the employer has acted improperly or failed to meet an obligation. She hasn’t. The OP committed an act of theft, was caught, admitted to it and has been dismissed summarily. The employer is within their rights to do so.

No disciplinary procedure is being initiated nor is their any requirement for them to do anything, other than show that a theft occured and that the OP admitted to it should the OP subsequently try to pursue an unfair dismissal claim.

Diceicle

Adamocovic wrote: »

Don't know much from the legal standpoint so can't comment on that.

Seems odd that despite the close nit group and relationships you have that she is willing to fire you straight away for that, also considering the hours you say you work for the price.

If you printed a lot of business cards for another company you were working for or moving to I'd understand the anger but 20 business cards for your sisters and her friends endeavour seems very small. You should have asked for permission no doubt but it seems like a little thing to create such a big reaction in my eyes.

Not really aware of process of dismissal but that sounds very informal and not by the book, also the comment of not giving you a reference is very strong reaction, I would have assumed you would have been called for a meeting to discuss the situation and behaviour before she came to her conclusion, but the fact she sat on this, did some odd Colombo style confirmation goes to show she had her mind made up.

This. Sounds more of a case for a wrap on the knuckles or an 'ask me before you do that again' scenario - using scraps to print a few cards. The way some are talking here you'd swear the OP was embezzling. Ridiculous stuff.

sexmag

JayZeus wrote: »

I’m not arguing generalities. I’m addressing the OP and those who seems to think the employer has acted improperly or failed to meet an obligation. She hasn’t. The OP committed an act of theft, was caught, admitted to it and has been dismissed summarily. The employer is within their rights to do so.

No disciplinary procedure is being initiated nor is their any requirement for them to do anything, other than show that a theft occured and that the OP admitted to it should the OP subsequently try to pursue an unfair dismissal claim.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/commission-finds-therapist-was-unfairly-dismissed-amid-ugly-atmosphere-in-beauty-salon-856393.html

"WRC Adjudication Officer, Michael McEntee found that no warnings of the dismissal in October 2017 were given and no opportunity to appeal the sacking was offered.

Mr McEntee found that the dismissal was procedurally unfair and that the basic tenets of natural justice in an employment situation were ignored."

Literraly explains what we are saying