Fired with no notice

Jim2007

221B wrote: »

I hate to think that I was stealing, I would never do that intentionally but I still royally f'ed up. This is why the whole thing is such a grey area.

There is absolutely nothing grey about it. You did commercial work for a family member on their time and their equipment for free without asking your boss.

Avatar MIA

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing grey about it. You did commercial work for a family member on their time and their equipment for free without asking your boss.

Correct, and...?

sexmag

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing grey about it. You did commercial work for a family member on their time and their equipment for free without asking your boss.

does the punishment fit the crime in your opinion? less than 20 cards made off disposed of paper,that arent technically business cards but backgrounds for a box. Especially when previously people were allowed print things for personal reasons

Ops boss went way over the line

Sportsmedic

Unfortunately it would be classed as stealing and grounds for immediate dismissal.
You could contact the Work Place Relations Commission and they would act as intermediary if you thought you were unfairly treated, etc. You can just request your P45. Its a legal requirement on your employer to issue it to you.
I think you should move on.

Avatar MIA

Sportsmedic wrote: »

Unfortunately it would be classed as stealing and grounds for immediate dismissal.
You could contact the Work Place Relations Commission and they would act as intermediary if you thought you were unfairly treated, etc. You can just request your P45. Its a legal requirement on your employer to issue it to you.
I think you should move on.

Stealing is not grounds for immediate dismissal. See case law, and awards to employees.

facehugger99

This seems like the equivalent of taking some pens from the stationary cabinet, bringing them home to your kids or printing out your boarding pass and car rental voucher from your work photocopier.

Obviously that's not something I've ever done but apparently it happens.

Seems like a ridiculous over-reaction.

You boss sounds like she is suffering from some form of mental illness.

sexmag

facehugger99 wrote: »

This seems like the equivalent of taking some pens from the stationary cabinet, bringing them home to your kids or printing out your boarding pass and car rental voucher from your work photocopier.

Obviously that's not something I've ever done but apparently it happens.

Seems like a ridiculous over-reaction.

You boss sounds like she is suffering from some form of mental illness.

i have used the printer in work to print boarding passes before and many other people do and its never been an issue, your analogy is right on the money

Sportsmedic

Sportsmedic wrote: »

Unfortunately it would be classed as stealing and grounds for immediate dismissal.

For the love of god would people who have literally zero understanding or knowledge of the subject ever consider reading the thread and familiarising themselves with law and precedent before posting this nonsense - over and over again?

It does no favours to the OP or anyone else lurking. You are just misleading her. I don't know if it helps you feel clever to come out with these confident statements but for those looking on it has the opposite effect.

sexmag

sexmag wrote: »

i have used the printer in work to print boarding passes before and many other people do and its never been an issue, your analogy is right on the money

Stealing and grounds for immediate dismissal. You have no case. Move on.

LOL.

seamus

JayZeus wrote: »

their boss can not reasonably be expected to believe that the OP, working freelance as a designer, has not done the same or printed greater quantity of materials for others in the past.

That's a massive leap to make, considering that the OP has done similar things before with the boss's blessing.

Simple question that it comes down to - "If the boss had been available at the time, would you have asked her permission?".

If the answer is yes, then the OP made a small error in judgement but one that was neither malicious nor unreasonable.

Any road, the OP's later post about the waste paper indicates that the owner is a bit of a lunatic and a Scrooge, so trying to square up the OP's experience as a rational reaction is a waste of time.

In terms of IP, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's too small-fry to be of much concern. I wouldn't blatantly re-use anything you've done for her, but I wouldn't be afraid to use old designs as a basis for new ones. You're not going to get sued for copyright.

Sportsmedic

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Stealing is not grounds for immediate dismissal. See case law, and awards to employees.

Stealing is grounds for dismissal. See citizens advice as follows:

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

BattleCorp

Sportsmedic wrote: »

Stealing is grounds for dismissal. See citizens advice as follows:

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Two things here.

Number 1. It's not 100% clear that there was theft. If the OP was allowed to do similar things in the past with the bosses blessing, then this might not be seen as theft.

Number 2. Even if it was stealing, and could 100% be defined as gross misconduct, you cannot sack anybody without giving them a fair hearing. Even if you catch them stealing money, stuffing it into their pockets, have it all on film, you still have to give the employee a fair hearing. If the outcome of that hearing is gross misconduct, then you can fire them. Not before.

There are a lot of pub lawyers here posting information that is incorrect.

Avatar MIA

Sportsmedic wrote: »

Stealing is grounds for dismissal. See citizens advice as follows:

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Do you think you could get fired for stealing, say, a paperclip? A level of materiality will be considered and no one will be successfully dismissed for what the OP did as a once off.

Sportsmedic

Not hear to say right or wrong.. Only know of a work colleague that was sacked for stealing smallish items no equipment or the like from a factory. Union said they could not fight a case as "Stealing was a sackable offence".
I just saw that piece on citizens advice and posted it.

aroundthehouse

221B wrote: »

I've been working in a tiny print studio for the last two years, there's only three of us, the boss, myself and another coworker. I've worked three or four days a week from the start depending on how busy it is, I freelance as a graphic designer the other days of the week.

It's a pretty unconventional work place, there isn't really any boss/employee dynamic and we see each other outside of work as well, it's always felt more like friends working together. It's only a part time job but it's such a big part of my life I moved back in with my parents to be closer to the studio.

I like to think I'm a good employee, able to come in at a moments notice, working even when my dad was in the hospital, staying until 9 or 10 at night sometimes and working a lot of unpaid hours to help out my coworker when it was busy. I've been doing graphic designs jobs for my boss for the last year or so as well, I only get paid a little more than minimum wage which is about a tenth of what I charge my other clients but I've never really minded since I enjoyed working there.

Long story short, my boss was away for a couple months on annual leave so I was working in the studio by myself. My sister has a tiny Etsy shop where she sells homemade earrings, she couldn't afford business cards and begged me to print off a few at the studio. I designed them at home and printed them in my own time using scrap card. In hindsight I definitely should've asked my boss first, that's completely on me, but it was a 10 minute job and she'd always allowed me to print personal things before. She was also on a boat at the time with spotty reception.

Fast forward to today, she's been acting weird for the last month or so, being really stand offish and straight up ignoring me at times. I didn't think much of it, assumed she was going through something personal. She asks me to come into work early, I do and she greets me like normal, asks how my weekend was etc., then she asks if she can look at my keys so I give them to her. She comes back and that's when she tells me she knows i've printed those business cards. I had no idea what she was talking about, I'd forgotten all about them, but then she confronts me with the 'evidence'. A print list that said a file had been printed that she didn't recognise, she had also ordered a pair of my sisters earrings under a presumably false name to compare the card stock of the business card that came with them with the card we have in the studio. She took my keys to the studio and said I wouldn't be getting a reference because I'd stolen from her.

I'm assuming this means I'm fired but I've had zero notice, I know what I did was wrong and I apologised profusely but I don't know what to do next, do I ask for my P45? I'm hesitant to contact her since the whole situation has shaken me quite badly. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

There must be something more to her firing you, like maybe the business is in trouble and she had to find an excuse to get rid of you, either that or shes a complete moron for letting go a top worker for printing a few measly cards...
I would send her a solicitors letter regarding unfair dismissal and contact citizens information, whilst i would look to move on quickly, i wouldnt let her away with it either

Rulmeq

Sportsmedic wrote: »

Not hear to say right or wrong.. Only know of a work colleague that was sacked for stealing smallish items no equipment or the like from a factory. Union said they could not fight a case as "Stealing was a sackable offence".
I just saw that piece on citizens advice and posted it.

For every piece of anecdotal evidence, someone can provide a counter-piece: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/firm-fired-worker-over-unpaid-10992876

Avatar MIA

Sportsmedic wrote: »

Not hear to say right or wrong.. Only know of a work colleague that was sacked for stealing smallish items no equipment or the like from a factory. Union said they could not fight a case as "Stealing was a sackable offence".
I just saw that piece on citizens advice and posted it.

I think the OP could be disciplined for what they did i.e. first warning (assuming there wasn't a custom and practice of such action), and maybe your work colleague had an active disciplinary record and his stealing was the final straw. Or the union may not have understood the dismissal procedure (was it a rep or union HQ that said he didn't have a defence?).


Hard to say, but... https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-falsely-accused-of-stealing-2-pastry-from-centra-awarded-20000-35571978.html


And the above is just one example.



Separately, as has been mentioned above adhering to the disciplinary procedure is key, i.e. you could be caught stealing the contents of the cash register (ignoring possible subsequent criminal consequences) and if the company dismisses you without following correct procedure they will likely lose an unfair dismissal case.

BattleCorp

Did the OP turn up for work this morning seeing as they weren't formally sacked?

TheBoyConor

As above, this was an unfair dismissal.

Make an appointment with a well experienced employment law solicitor and take this one to the cleaners.

TheBoyConor

As above, this was an unfair dismissal.

Make an appointment with a well experienced employment law solicitor and take this one to the cleaners.

bobbysands81

As well as losing a job the OP has lost a pal... though the way she’s been treated by the boss (being fired, lack of proper pay, being taken for granted, not the first time she’s freaked over something that isn’t that big a deal) then maybe she wasn’t really a pal.

ReallyMe4711

This definately worth giving the Citizens Advice Bureau a call on. It is only in rare situations that a person can be summarily dismissed and this action seems extreme in this case especially as you say that you've been allowed to print off things before. You should have a contract of employment which details the disciplinary procedure that she needs to follow. I would'nt just leave it ..... As you say, you were a job employee and deserve a reference.

sexmag

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/chef-who-told-kitchen-porter-i-will-kill-you-while-holding-knife-awarded-6k-for-unfair-dismissal-37150006.html

Apples and oranges in a sense but still interesting to read

BrianBoru00

Glass fused light wrote: »

The first paragraphs in the link explains the opposite.


Note the obligation to investigate in this paragraph on gross misconduct?

No . It just says that if a claim is brought the employer must prove they followed procedure. Its quite clear the employer did investigate . And procedure does nott necessarily inclufe interview with fired person if not required ..

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Avatar MIA

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

No . It just says that if a claim is brought the employer must prove they followed procedure. Its quite clear the employer did investigate . And procedure does nott necessarily inclufe interview with fired person if not required ..

Going on the OP's accounts there is no way enough for this to constitute Gross misconduct. Besides, do you think the owner documented their investigation. Why did they not give the OP due notice of the disciplinary meeting so that the OP could defend themselves, and seek a witness to the meeting?

NinetyTwoTeam

davo10 wrote: »

Printing cards for your sisters business without charging or informing your boss, is difficult to view as anything accept stealing. Your boss's business is cards.

In a print shop it is very common for employees to use the equipment to do a favor for someone they know as long as they don't use a ton of stock or time. A lot of places will do business cards for next to nothing for friends or regular clients that get other stuff.

It's very rare for a favor like this to be viewed as theft in the industry. Be different if you charged someone for it.

But all bosses are different. When I worked at a similar place the boss wouldn't have a clue or care what files were going through the card stock printer, that's unnecessary micromanaging.

221B

Patww79 wrote: »

OP disappeared?

Sorry I went AWOL, thank you to everyone who’s posted, it’s been a huge help. I’m trying to sort out other work at the moment. Found out that the business is being sold, to my coworker. Currently trying to get hold of my boss to get my P45.

Fann Linn

221B wrote: »

Sorry I went AWOL, thank you to everyone who’s posted, it’s been a huge help. I’m trying to sort out other work at the moment. Found out that the business is being sold, to my coworker. Currently trying to get hold of my boss to get my P45.

Transfer of Undertaking could be in play now. Its cheaper for your co worker to buy the place if the extra wage,ie you, are not there.

Id certainly be pushing now for unfair dismissal case.

NinetyTwoTeam

221B wrote: »

Sorry I went AWOL, thank you to everyone who’s posted, it’s been a huge help. I’m trying to sort out other work at the moment. Found out that the business is being sold, to my coworker. Currently trying to get hold of my boss to get my P45.

OMFG that is a joke they pulled this and tried to blame it on some poxy business cards.

OP if you're going to take an unfair dismissal case instead of asking for your P45 what if you just send an invoice to your sister for the cards and inform your boss that you sent your sister the invoice as requested and let them see how they can possibly prove you stole them then?

There was no meeting with any witnesses as there was meant to be so she can't prove you admitted anything. you can just say she hadn't paid the invoice yet because you forgot to send it - it was an oversight, not stealing. They have no proof whatsoever of it being anything else.