The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

Barney92

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

He was not the same QB in Nov-Dec, he looked really uncomfortable at times particularly on deep throws and iirc virtually all his stats dropped off vs earlier in the season when he was excellent.

I think you also need to take into account of the quality of defences he faced. Using the Dallas game as his 'drop-off', because the week before he threw for 4 touchdowns against Atlanta. Over the next four games he faces the 7th, 27th, 15th and 6th best defences (in terms of yards allowed). That's three defences in the top sixteen in terms of yards allowed in only four games. He faced 2 of the top 16 defences in the first 11 games of the season and had yards per attempt of 7.1 and 5.2, two of the three lowest levels he had over that span.

So yes he didn't perform as well as he did at the start of the regular season but he was playing better defences (at least in terms of yards allowed) towards the end.

Ranking of Defence|Yards Per Attempt|Completion Percentage
Top 16|6.37|69.7%
Bottom 16|8.99|76.6%


Ranking of Defence|Yards Per Attempt|Completion Percentage
Top 20|7.71|72.3%
Bottom 12|8.53|76.2%

Christy42

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

He was not the same QB in Nov-Dec, he looked really uncomfortable at times particularly on deep throws and iirc virtually all his stats dropped off vs earlier in the season when he was excellent.

Also likely regression to the mean as well as better defenses. Simply put he may have just had his better games towards the start of the season. I see no reason to be worried about him yet.

The_Honeybadger

Perhaps that’s all it is. If he can get anywhere near his best in 2019 the saints will be a hard team to stop. Very strong all over the field.

Shedite27

American Football - the sport that has stats to back up whatever side of the argument you want to make

Guffy

Shedite27 wrote: »

American Football - the sport that has stats to back up whatever side of the argument you want to make

Depends on the sample size you are willing to entertain.

Christy42

Shedite27 wrote: »

American Football - the sport that has stats to back up whatever side of the argument you want to make

Indeed. I think in this case it is more a lack of information. Maybe he is regressing and it has been slow enough to not be completely obvious yet.

Blut2

I mean to be fair here stats or no stats hes also a 40 years and 7 months old man playing a highly athletic professional sport. He'll be turning 41 before the next Superbowl. If his performance hasn't already started dropping off (with the stats in favour or against above) its definitely going to happen very much sooner rather than later.

With the talent around him on the Saints offense I'd imagine unless he really goes off a cliff this year they should get this season out of him at least, though.

MrKingsley

I wouldn’t necessarily worrying about brees. They have a good OL and Thomas doesn’t exactly burn defenses down the field. Brees doesn’t need loads of time to find Thomas.

Also I don’t necessarily buy this “it’ll be so hard to get over such a bad call” idea

I’d be more worried that they have to get out of their division first and the face a serious NFC team in the playoffs.

I think they have seriously downgraded going from Ingram to Murray. I would be more worried about their run game and then brees having to shoulder the load more than anything else

Itssoeasy

I was looking at the first five weeks of the regular season last night and I noticed that the browns have two prime time games in the first five weeks. They play the jets and the 49ers on MNF. I mean I understand why this is happening as there is a lot of buzz around the team for the first time in literally decades, and OBJ coming in and all that. My worry is what record do they need to have by week 5 to stop the pre game build up on ESPN before the niners game being "the browns are not living up to the hype" ? I doubt they'll go 4-0 to start the season, so is it a case of regardless of how well they might do they can't live up to the hype ?

Salt Lake Stallion

Brees the highest QB in the Top 100 Players, number 2 overall. Mahomes at 4 and Brady at 6. Aaron Donald of the Rams is number 1.

Some people dismiss the Top 100 list but I put a lot of merit in it as it is voted by the players themselves.

eagle eye

Salt Lake Stallion wrote:

Brees the highest QB in the Top 100 Players, number 2 overall. Mahomes at 4 and Brady at 6. Aaron Donald of the Rams is number 1.
Some people dismiss the Top 100 list but I put a lot of merit in it as it is voted by the players themselves.

What is it based off? Last year's regular season only?
If it includes the playoffs then surely Brady should be the top QB. If it's including the last five seasons then Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady and Drew Brees should be the top three QB's.
Imo QB is the most critical position right now so the best ones should be filling the top spots.
Aaron Donald is a great player but he didn't win his team a Superbowl.

Salt Lake Stallion

It's just based on who the players think is the current best players in the NFL, I don't think they have any specific selection criteria. Each player probably bases it on their own criteria.

The_Honeybadger

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I was looking at the first five weeks of the regular season last night and I noticed that the browns have two prime time games in the first five weeks. They play the jets and the 49ers on MNF. I mean I understand why this is happening as there is a lot of buzz around the team for the first time in literally decades, and OBJ coming in and all that. My worry is what record do they need to have by week 5 to stop the pre game build up on ESPN before the niners game being "the browns are not living up to the hype" ? I doubt they'll go 4-0 to start the season, so is it a case of regardless of how well they might do they can't live up to the hype ?

I can see them being 2-2 going in to that 49ers game as I think the Rams and one of the Titans or Ravens will beat them.

Do people think all of this hype is justified? They are a 10-6 team at best imo. They seem to be pinning a lot of hope on OBJ who hasn’t had a 16 game season in a while.

Guffy

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I can see them being 2-2 going in to that 49ers game as I think the Rams and one of the Titans or Ravens will beat them.

Do people think all of this hype is justified? They are a 10-6 team at best imo. They seem to be pinning a lot of hope on OBJ who hasn’t had a 16 game season in a while.

Its not just obj tbf. Its a full season of Baker and Chubb, it's an ever improving defensive squad, the ability that Kitchens showed in making subtle changes to the offensive playbook last year, the difference that made and the hope that a full off season to implement his changes will further improve the team. The turn around in the team from 0-16 and 1-15 to what it is now.

But then, ya know, there is also OBJ and the receiving talent we have behind him too.

el Fenomeno

I couldn't put any merit in a list that didn't have Chandler Jones ranked in the top 100 players of last year.

Hazys

2019 Rank Player Position Team Last Year's Rank
1 Aaron Donald DT Rams 7
2 Drew Brees QB Saints 8
3 Khalil Mack LB Bears 16
4 Pat Mahomes QB Chiefs
5 Todd Gurley RB Rams 6
6 Tom Brady QB Patriots 1
7 Antonio Brown WR Raiders 2
8 Aaron Rodgers QB Packers 10
9 Julio Jones WR Falcons 4
10 Von Miller LB Broncos 9
11 Deandre Hopkins WR Texans 13
12 JJ Watt DE Texans 84
13 Michael Thomas WR Saints 81
14 Alvin Kamara RB Saints 20
15 Bobby Wagner LB Seahawks 21
16 Saquon Barkley RB Giants
17 Philip Rivers QB Chargers 56
18 Ezekiel Elliott RB Cowboys 54
19 Tyreek Hill WR Chiefs 40
20 Andrew Luck QB Colts
21 Travis Kelce TE Chiefs 24
22 Stephon Gilmore CB Patriots
23 Odell Beckham Jr. WR Browns 77
24 Luke Kuechly LB Panthers 12
25 Russell Wilson QB Seahawks 11
26 Darius Leonard LB Colts
27 Jalen Ramsey CB Jaguars 17
28 Fletcher Cox DT Eagles 69
29 George Kittle TE 49ers
30 Eddie Jackson S Bears
31 Derwin James S Chargers
32 Jared Goff QB Rams 38
33 Adam Thielen WR Vikings 36
34 Melvin Gordon RB Chargers
35 Davante Adams WR Packers 45
36 Chris Jones DE Chiefs
37 Jamal Adams S Jets 100
38 Keenan Allen WR Chargers 41
39 Akiem Hicks DT Bears
40 Zach Ertz TE Eagles 68
41 Cameron Jordan DE Saints 26
42 Christian McCaffrey RB Panthers
43 David Bakhtiari T Packers 91
44 Ben Roethlisberger QB Steelers 18
45 Demarcus Lawrence DE Cowboys 34
46 Patrick Peterson CB Cardinals 23
47 JuJu Smith-Schuster WR Steelers
48 Melvin Ingram DE Chargers 76
49 Myles Garrett DE Browns
50 Baker Mayfield QB Browns
51 Deshaun Watson QB Texans 50
52 Tyron Smith T Cowboys 39
53 Mike Evans WR Buccaneers
54 Calais Campbell DE Jaguars 14
55 Xavien Howard CB Dolphins
56 Joey Bosa DE Chargers 37
57 Danielle Hunter DE Vikings
58 AJ Green WR Bengals 22
59 Zack Martin G Cowboys 71
60 Larry Fitzgerald WR Cardinals 27
61 Jaylon Smith LB Cowboys
62 James Conner RB Steelers
63 Jadeveon Clowney DE Texans 32
64 Amari Cooper WR Cowboys
65 Jason Pierre-Paul DE Buccaneers
66 Eric Ebron TE Colts
67 Dee Ford LB 49ers
68 Phillip Lindsay RB Broncos
69 Matt Ryan QB Falcons 29
70 T.Y. Hilton WR Colts
71 C.J. Mosley LB Jets 98
72 Jason Kelce C Eagles
73 Stefon Diggs WR Vikings 65
74 Leighton Vander-Esch LB Cowboys
75 Gerald McCoy DT Buccaneers
76 Robert Woods WR Rams
77 Taylor Lewan T Titans 78
78 Kirk Cousins QB Vikings 94
79 Geno Atkins DT Bengals 63
80 Mark Ingram RB Ravens 43
81 Trent Williams T Redskins 57
82 Bradley Chubb LB Broncos
83 Harrison Smith S Vikings 46
84 Jarvis Landry WR Browns 52
85 Frank Clark DE Seahawks
86 Darius Slay CB Lions 49
87 Cam Newton QB Panthers 25
88 Cameron Heyward DT Steelers 48
89 Devin McCourty S Patriots
90 Julian Edelman WR Patriots
91 Andrew Whitworth T Rams 87
92 Jurrell Casey DT Titans 66
93 TJ Watt LB Steelers
94 Mitchell Schwartz T Chiefs
95 Kyle Fuller CB Bears
96 Carson Wentz QB Eagles 3
97 Byron Jones CB Cowboys
98 Tyler Lockett WR Seahawks
99 Derrick Henry RB Titans
100 Eric Weddle S Rams

Hazys

When the Cowboys (8) have the double the number of players in the Top 100 as the Super Bowl champions, the Vikings (5) have one more and the Browns have an equal amount (4), its probably not the most accurate list.

Not to mention the Chargers having 6 after getting destroyed by the Patriots in the playoffs, you definitely need to take it with a pinch of salt.

jack presley

One Redskin on the list and he’s holding out. Gonna be a long year.........

The_Honeybadger

Guffy wrote: »

Its not just obj tbf. Its a full season of Baker and Chubb, it's an ever improving defensive squad, the ability that Kitchens showed in making subtle changes to the offensive playbook last year, the difference that made and the hope that a full off season to implement his changes will further improve the team. The turn around in the team from 0-16 and 1-15 to what it is now.

But then, ya know, there is also OBJ and the receiving talent we have behind him too.

Oh yeah I understand it’s not just OBJ, he’s not even the most important player imo. Garrett is a monster and Mayfield, Chubb, Landry and Ward all look like first rate talents.

The defensive line looks good but are they good enough behind that at lb and safety to stop the best teams? Is the O-Line good enough over a full season to keep Mayfield upright with Zeitler gone and a journeyman with a history of discipline issues at left tackle? An injury or two in that area would be very difficult to overcome imo.

There is no doubting the talent is there in certain positions but we’d need to see them beat a few contenders and make the playoffs before getting too carried away is all I’m saying.

Shedite27

Any idea why the new Sky Sports package saying that you can get "everything on one package" has NFL excluded? NBA, NHL, MLB all get name checked, even Canadian Football League gets a mention.

Something happening with the rights this year?

https://www.sky.com/ireland/tv/sports-extra?DCMP=emc-ROI:na_sports_extra

jack presley

Shedite27 wrote: »

Any idea why the new Sky Sports package saying that you can get "everything on one package" has NFL excluded? NBA, NHL, MLB all get name checked, even Canadian Football League gets a mention.

Something happening with the rights this year?

https://www.sky.com/ireland/tv/sports-extra?DCMP=emc-ROI:na_sports_extra

I'd say its just an oversight. From memory, I think there's one year left on their current deal.

paulie21

Sky definitely have coverage. Showing a number of pre season games and Hard Knocks next Thursday at 9pm

Itssoeasy

https://operations.nfl.com/media/3831/2019-playing-rules.pdf

2019 NFL rule book updated with the new PI rule changes and other changes.

Salt Lake Stallion

Anbody else watching the Hall of Fame game?

I'm really excited football season is back, I'm also really tired and will probably be asleep by the end of the 1st quarter.

MileHighGuy

Denver with the TD! I can smell the super bowl! (so can the fans of 31 other teams though, that's what makes American football great) bed awaits!

Knex*

Well, that's not good.

https://twitter.com/P_ConnerJr/status/1156911221528043521?s=09

jack presley

Knex. wrote: »

Well, that's not good.

https://twitter.com/P_ConnerJr/status/1156911221528043521?s=09

More details here

https://deadspin.com/report-trent-williamss-beef-with-the-skins-runs-pretty-1836882310

eagle eye

Yeah seen that in the Redskins thread.

He has every right to feel aggrieved and want out. I'm sure that somewhere in his contract that there is the opportunity to walk over something that serious.

VillaMad

Just to confirm that Sky are showing the following pre-season games live:

Friday 16th August: Oakland Raiders @ Arizona Cardinals - 1am

Monday 19th August: Seattle Seahawks @ Minnesota Vikings - 1am

Saturday 24th August: Buffalo Bills @ Detroit Lions - 1am

Monday 26th August: Pittsburgh Steelers @ Tennessee Titans - 1am

MileHighGuy

I know it's just the preseason, but that's a pretty uninspiring slate of games.

Besides getting to see Kyler Murray, I don't really see anything else of interest.

Oat23

thomond2006 wrote: »

As mentioned in the twitter comments NYG will surely give him a go. Pity how his career turned out since shining in a poor Bears team.

The Giants might have been (should've been anyway) in for him but Meredith joins the Patriots. Hopefully he stays healthy and makes the team.


https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1157368790251921410

Foxtrol

Hazys wrote: »

When the Cowboys (8) have the double the number of players in the Top 100 as the Super Bowl champions, the Vikings (5) have one more and the Browns have an equal amount (4), its probably not the most accurate list.

Not to mention the Chargers having 6 after getting destroyed by the Patriots in the playoffs, you definitely need to take it with a pinch of salt.

The Top 100 is generally a mess but your logic there is poor.

A team can have a high number of players worthy of being in the top 100 but due to poor roster construction or poor coaching the team they play on might have poor results.

The Patriots are the perfect example of a team that performs much better than the sum of the players on the roster, as we can see from how many players improve when they move into their system/coaching or how many that underperform when they move on.

Hazys

Foxtrol wrote: »

The Top 100 is generally a mess but your logic there is poor.

A team can have a high number of players worthy of being in the top 100 but due to poor roster construction or poor coaching the team they play on might have poor results.

The Patriots are the perfect example of a team that performs much better than the sum of the players on the roster, as we can see from how many players improve when they move into their system/coaching or how many that underperform when they move on.

I agree to a certain extent. The Patriots spread the salary cap around better. They rather pay 5 above average players the same price as paying one superstar the same price which is more the norm of the NFL. If it was the top 200/300 players, I’d say the patriots would have the most.

But there is a element to the list of valuing flash over functionality. Otherwise why would Jarvis Laundry be 10 or so spots ahead of Julian Edelman?

Foxtrol

Hazys wrote: »

I agree to a certain extent. The Patriots spread the salary cap around better. They rather pay 5 above average players the same price as paying one superstar the same price which is more the norm of the NFL. If it was the top 200/300 players, I’d say the patriots would have the most.

But there is a element to the list of valuing flash over functionality. Otherwise why would Jarvis Laundry be 10 or so spots ahead of Julian Edelman?

Salary isn't everything but Landry's average is nearly double Edelman's. Obviously there are other causes to why some players get more or accepted less but it gives an idea of what the market thinks of both players. I can see an argument that Edelman is a product of the Patriot system and Brady, so rightly or wrongly gets maked down by some voters because of it.

In my opinion, which also could play into this, someone who misses games in a given season for PEDs shouldn't be included on any list.

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote:

Brady, so rightly or wrongly gets maked down by some voters because of it.

It's accepted almost universally that Brady is the GOAT, he doesn't get marked down anymore.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

It's accepted almost universally that Brady is the GOAT, he doesn't get marked down anymore.

I was talking about Edelman not Brady. As a WR, you may not get as much credit when you're playing with debatably 'the GOAT' QB, HC, and system for your skillset.

Many would rank WRs with 'flashy' plays on poorer teams higher due to it being a sign of them being able to do more than a player on much better team who feeds off what is put on a plate for them by their QB and scheme.

As I said earlier, the Top 100 is a mess but the examples that have been given as to why don't hold any water to me. People are always going to have issues with completely subjective lists that are designed to get clicks, they are best to be ignored.

The_Honeybadger

eagle eye wrote: »

It's accepted almost universally that Brady is the GOAT, he doesn't get marked down anymore.

It’s impossible to argue convincingly that he is not the GOAT given all that he has achieved but I still hear various commentators and fans put a sneaky asterisk next to his career due to the infrastructure he has had around him throughout.

IIRC Brady himself stated not long ago that if Aaron Rogers played in a Belichick scheme he would throw for 7000 yards a season. I do think Brady was lucky to land where he landed, allowing him to play under a genius who knew how to get every ounce of productivity from him his entire career. He made the most of the opportunity though and has proven himself over and over.

eagle eye

The_Honeybadger wrote:

It’s impossible to argue convincingly that he is not the GOAT given all that he has achieved but I still hear various commentators and fans put a sneaky asterisk next to his career due to the infrastructure he has had around him throughout.

No you don't hear various, you hear the odd CONTRARIAN commentator do this. The guy just trying something else to keep himself in the news.

Jody Smoke

There is no such thing as the GOAT in American football performance of players are far too under the influence of factors other than themselves that to have even close to a reasonable consensus around it is impossible.

There is no sport in the world where being on the right team with the right coaches makes such a difference to how good or bad a player is as is the case in American football.

The_Honeybadger

eagle eye wrote: »

No you don't hear various, you hear the odd CONTRARIAN commentator do this. The guy just trying something else to keep himself in the news.

Whatever way you want to phrase it the theory is not without some merit. If Brady had been drafted by another team his career would be viewed very differently I suspect. That is not to take away from what he has done, that second half SB comeback v the falcons a few years back is an example of how incredibly good he is. I don’t think any other QB could have done it and I don’t think anybody could claim it was to do with the system or scheme. In the most pressured situation imaginable he completely nailed it.

My own view is that he and Bill have benefited immensely from each other. It will be interesting to see what happens if Brady retires and Belichick stays on with the Pats.

j8wk2feszrnpao

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

IIRC Brady himself stated not long ago that if Aaron Rogers played in a Belichick scheme he would throw for 7000 yards a season.

Brady is 29-3 against Buffalo (most ever by a quarterback against a single team), and he'll still talk the Bills up when they play them. Being largely humble and talking up the opposition is the norm for him
Had Rodgers played for Belichick would he rein himself in for the program like Brady has done? No real way to tell, but I doubt it; can't see them having lasted for almost two decades together.

The "if he'd been drafted by another team' or 'if he didn't have Belichick' or 'if he didn't have Gronk, Moss....' etc, has all been repeated. The fact is he did have those people around him, just like anyone else has had their benefits (like Montana-Rice). Brady has the stats, the records, the wins, the rings and we've seen him do it time and time again on the field (in an age when all games are covered). People don't have to have him as their GOAT, but his achievements are unquestionable.

The_Honeybadger

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Brady is 29-3 against Buffalo (most ever by a quarterback against a single team), and he'll still talk the Bills up when they play them. Being largely humble and talking up the opposition is the norm for him
Had Rodgers played for Belichick would he rein himself in for the program like Brady has done? No real way to tell, but I doubt it; can't see them having lasted for almost two decades together.

The "if he'd been drafted by another team' or 'if he didn't have Belichick' or 'if he didn't have Gronk, Moss....' etc, has all been repeated. The fact is he did have those people around him, just like anyone else has had their benefits (like Montana-Rice). Brady has the stats, the records, the wins, the rings and we've seen him do it time and time again on the field (in an age when all games are covered). People don't have to have him as their GOAT, but his achievements are unquestionable.

Yes I think we are agreeing for the most part. I think he landed in the perfect spot and made the most of it.

I do agree Rogers and some others probably wouldn’t work for the Pats as they would want to run the show. That is one thing I love about Brady, if it benefits the team he will hand the ball off forty times a game and check down the rest, but he can make any throw if needed as well. He is a true team player.

As a Steelers fan Ben drives me crazy at times trying to be this gunslinger QB. It leads to errors and interceptions that are mostly avoidable.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Two year extension for Brady.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001038951/article/tom-brady-agrees-to-contract-extension-with-patriots
Still not sure he'll be playing at 45, but if there's one guy that can do it......

jack presley

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Two year extension for Brady.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001038951/article/tom-brady-agrees-to-contract-extension-with-patriots
Still not sure he'll be playing at 45, but if there's one guy that can do it......

He won’t need to ask Jezel for pocket money anymore.

eagle eye

The_Honeybadger wrote:

Whatever way you want to phrase it the theory is not without some merit. If Brady had been drafted by another team his career would be viewed very differently I suspect. That is not to take away from what he has done, that second half SB comeback v the falcons a few years back is an example of how incredibly good he is. I don’t think any other QB could have done it and I don’t think anybody could claim it was to do with the system or scheme. In the most pressured situation imaginable he completely nailed it.

My own view is that he and Bill have benefited immensely from each other. It will be interesting to see what happens if Brady retires and Belichick stays on with the Pats.

If Brady walked a different way on a golf course when he was a kid he could have been hit by a golf ball and died and he'd never have been the GOAT of American football.

The_Honeybadger

eagle eye wrote: »

If Brady walked a different way on a golf course when he was a kid he could have been hit by a golf ball and died and he'd never have been the GOAT of American football.

Will leave it there bud. Not much point discussing anything with someone who resorts to childishness and calls anybody that doesn’t agree with everything they say contrarians.

eagle eye

The_Honeybadger wrote:

Will leave it there bud. Not much point discussing anything with someone who resorts to childishness and calls anybody that doesn’t agree with everything they say contrarians.

Yeah, well you are contrarian if you think there is merit in any suggestion that Brady is not the GOAT. Simple as.
I don't know whether it's that you dislike the Patriots or are jealous of the GOAT.

OOnegative

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah, well you are contrarian if you think there is merit in any suggestion that Brady is not the GOAT. Simple as.
I don't know whether it's that you dislike the Patriots or are jealous of the GOAT.

Take your tongue out of Brady’s ass dude seriously, your name Bill Belichick by any chance!! Get over yourself.

eagle eye

OOnegative wrote:

Take your tongue out of Brady’s ass dude seriously, your name Bill Belichick by any chance!! Get over yourself.

I'm the realist here. Anybody even sneakily suggesting there might be a question mark about Brady's legacy is either clueless or a hater.

The_Honeybadger

There is no question mark over Tom Brady’s legacy. His records are there to see. The debate arises from the fact that his achievements are intertwined with his coach to a degree that we haven’t seen in any team or sport probably ever. It’s a completely unique set of circumstances. One would not work without the other IMO. He is the goat though. It’s ridiculous how consistently good he is, and his performance in clutch situations.