US Presidential Election 2020

Beechwoodspark

So if trump refuses to take part in the virtual debate what happens

Timberrrrrrrr

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So if trump refuses to take part in the virtual debate what happens

Nothing, he just proves that he is a chicken and afraid to debate because he knows he will lose again.

Beechwoodspark

So if trump refuses to take part in the virtual debate what happens

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

And better than self proclaimed socialists, who hold purity above actually achieving things that help people

Ahh right those corporate Democrats help people. Lets be specific rich people. Utterly risible to imply they help the vast majority American people economically.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/income-inequality-obama-bush_n_1419008?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKx8YdxFU0guGZbQxUzDzDc8Mk09yJTxb_mxOV4Wpj-k08BpaycUtTVJitVjMxPDoAD1lx2IlkWFmUb7Mt_7cAe1FxMcEW8fvZt4ywLIdfE5lWA-3D_2C-aFY5D873v-4p7RUFo0U7OFNFic8cQTqWVOMNp1xE2o-019vShixn6e

Under the economic policies of the Friedmanites AKA know as Reganomics Republicans and the Corporate Democrats with their economic polices income inequality has been getting worse and worse in the US for decades.

Foxtrol

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So if trump refuses to take part in the virtual debate what happens

Where things currently stand:

- Commission moved next week to virtual
- Trump refused to take part
- Biden then proposed and Trump agreed to push the town hall style debate back to the 22nd
- Trump team now also wants the 3rd debate to be pushed to the following week, the 29th, a few days before the election
- Biden's team is refusing to that idea as Trump backed out of one and shouldn't get to move everyone's calendar (also it is obviously very risky for the clear front runner to have a debate a few days before the election)

eire4

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Given he's another in a long line of Corporate Democrats, devoid of any ideology beyond globalism, it's entirely possible.

A perfect empty suit, with just enough of a minority sheen to him.

Sadly a pretty accurate description.

Beechwoodspark

Biden would be better off cancelling altogether than allowing trump a “free hit” days before the vote

Can you imagine the absolute horse crap trump will shovel in that final debate ...

StringerBell

Tell me how wrote: »

Pete giving it straight to Fox News.

https://twitter.com/TheRickyDavila/status/1314051953790345219?s=19

Yes!!!!!!!
Love it giving it to them straight is no way to get asked back but fair play to mayor Pete

Timberrrrrrrr

Foxtrol wrote: »

Where things currently stand:

- Commission moved next week to virtual
- Trump refused to take part
- Biden then proposed and Trump agreed to push the town hall style debate back to the 22nd
- Trump team now also wants the 3rd debate to be pushed to the following week, the 29th, a few days before the election
- Biden's team is refusing to that idea as Trump backed out of one and shouldn't get to move everyone's calendar (also it is obviously very risky for the clear front runner to have a debate a few days before the election)

And the whole reason is simple, Trump is not well and they know he won't be able for rigorous debate for 90 minutes. They are looking for (literally) breathing space hoping he recovers enough to get through the 90 minutes.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

And better than self proclaimed socialists, who hold purity above actually achieving things that help people

Criticising socialists for struggling to achieve actual benefits to the American citizen, when they have stacked against them billion dollar industries, andl politicians eager to suck on the teat.

Risible viewpoint

Foxtrol

eire4 wrote: »

Ahh right those corporate Democrats help people. Lets be specific rich people. Utterly risible to imply they help the vast majority American people economically.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/income-inequality-obama-bush_n_1419008?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKx8YdxFU0guGZbQxUzDzDc8Mk09yJTxb_mxOV4Wpj-k08BpaycUtTVJitVjMxPDoAD1lx2IlkWFmUb7Mt_7cAe1FxMcEW8fvZt4ywLIdfE5lWA-3D_2C-aFY5D873v-4p7RUFo0U7OFNFic8cQTqWVOMNp1xE2o-019vShixn6e

Under the economic policies of the Friedmanites AKA know as Reganomics Republicans and the Corporate Democrats with their economic polices income inequality has been getting worse and worse in the US for decades.

'Ahh right', ignore Biden's policy to increase taxes on corporations and tax individuals earning over $400k, the increase in those with healthcare thanks to the ACA, or the climate deals and regulations signed etc etc

Being 'pure' in your ideals will be great comfort when GOP appointed supreme court gets rid of Roe v Wade and gut gay marriage rights.

At this stage I'm well aware that you'd prefer to watch the US, and everyone in it, burn if it led to Bernie ruling the ashes than see a 'corporate democrat' win. I'm not getting into another long debate with you on the selfishness of that perspective.

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

'Ahh right', ignore Biden's policy to increase taxes on corporations and tax individuals earning over $400k, the increase in those with healthcare thanks to the ACA, or the climate deals and regulations signed etc etc

Being 'pure' in your ideals will be great comfort when GOP appointed supreme court gets rid of Roe v Wade and gut gay marriage rights.

At this stage I'm well aware that you'd prefer to watch the US, and everyone in it, burn if it led to Bernie ruling the ashes than see a 'corporate democrat' win. I'm not getting into another long debate with you on the selfishness of that perspective.

I am well aware of what Biden says he will do and all his nice talk. It is what Obama did before he got into power. It is what corporate Democrats do and have done since Carter. I just have stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt and stopped believing them anymore since Obama.

No purity tests for me. I just won't support candidates that clearly won't do what's best for the vast majority of Americans. How dare I push for an economy that lifts all boats and gives opportunity structurally to all rather then just the wealthy and powerful. As for the US burning. No I do not want t see the US burning quite the opposite. I would love to see a vibrant and positive US. But continuing with alternating between the horrific economic polices that the Republicans have foisted on the country and that Corporate Democrats have as well is the reason that the US is the joke that it is now.

The selfishness is people like you continue to push for more and more of the same economic polices that have lead to the US being in the position it is.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Criticising socialists for struggling to achieve actual benefits to the American citizen, when they have stacked against them billion dollar industries, andl politicians eager to suck on the teat.

Risible viewpoint

More risible to me is sitting on the ditch hurling insults at people working within the current system to try to make actual improvements in the lives of people.

If there is a choice of someone offering the world and succeeding in nothing or offering less and actually likely to achieve it, I'd go with the latter every time.

Foxtrol

eire4 wrote: »

I am well aware of what Biden says he will do and all his nice talk. It is what Obama did before he got into power. It is what corporate Democrats do and have done since Carter. I just have stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt and stopped believing them anymore since Obama.

No purity tests for me. I just won't support candidates that clearly won't do what's best for the vast majority of Americans. How dare I push for an economy that lifts all boats and gives opportunity structurally to all rather then just the wealthy and powerful. As for the US burning. No I do not want t see the US burning quite the opposite. I would love to see a vibrant and positive US. But continuing with alternating between the horrific economic polices that the Republicans have foisted on the country and that Corporate Democrats have as well is the reason that the US is the joke that it is now.

The selfishness is people like you continue to push for more and more of the same economic polices that have lead to the US being in the position it is.

It says it all that you didn't or couldn't acknowledge any of positive things I highlighted that was recently done by 'Corporate Democrats' or the very likely negative outcomes for many groups if the GOP gets back in power.

If it isn't the 'pure' way you demand you simply don't care about the people impacted, whether it is positively or negatively.

serfboard

eire4 wrote: »

No purity tests for me. I just won't support candidates that clearly won't do what's best for the vast majority of Americans. How dare I push for an economy that lifts all boats and gives opportunity structurally to all rather then just the wealthy and powerful. As for the US burning. No I do not want t see the US burning quite the opposite. I would love to see a vibrant and positive US. But continuing with alternating between the horrific economic polices that the Republicans have foisted on the country and that Corporate Democrats have as well is the reason that the US is the joke that it is now.

I'd have some sympathy with your position - installing Harris (darling of the Hamptons set) as VP was a particularly nauseating move by the Corporate Dems.

However, in this one instance there is no choice - Trump has to be removed, and voting Biden is the only way to do it.

But sure, down the ballot vote for those closer to your position, and ensure that the corporates are ousted at the next primaries - like what AOC did.

rossie1977

I would take the supposed 'corporate democrats' every day of the week over the alternative. Look at those voting records https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2pwhvt/the_differences_between_the_democratic_party_and/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

If you are a Democrat and don't vote for Biden choosing to stay at home it's basically a vote for Trump...

eire4

serfboard wrote: »

I'd have some sympathy with your position - installing Harris (darling of the Hamptons set) as VP was a particularly nauseating move by the Corporate Dems.

However, in this one instance there is no choice - Trump has to be removed, and voting Biden is the only way to do it.

But sure, down the ballot vote for those closer to your position, and ensure that the corporates are ousted at the next primaries - like what AOC did.

I totally agree with you that this president has to go. No question what so ever. All I am pointing out is that I have given up on believing the corporate Democrats since Obama had me fooled. More of the same as I said alternating between Corporate Democrats and the Republicans has lead the US to where it is today and the joke that it is. I agree this president has to go. Given the circumstances I hope Biden is the US president come next January but I am not fooled into thinking he is the answer and I will continue to push back against Corporate Democrats and not give them a pass because they are the lesser of 2 evils because regardless of how true that is that is still not going to stop the decline of the US.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

More risible to me is sitting on the ditch hurling insults at people working within the current system to try to make actual improvements in the lives of people.

If there is a choice of someone offering the world and succeeding in nothing or offering less and actually likely to achieve it, I'd go with the latter every time.

What achievements would that be exactly? Millions more ( mostly black) people sent to prison for non-violent crime, of Clinton? An economic policy that consistently eroded worker rights in the United states, and exploited slave wages in other countries? The great accomplishment of the ACA, which exposed millions of more Americans to the predatory for-profit healthcare industry? All the while decrying calls for universal healthcare as unrealistic.

What a legacy of accomplishments.

StringerBell

Obama had good ideas, and good intentions but he ran into the political machine himself. He used up all of his political capital for the ACA (which was a very different bill by the time it got out of committee) and after that he had a republican house and senate to contend with that had a clearly defined plan of non cooperation.

Quite sad what happened when the people voted for change alright and you could argue the people voted for change this time around too (not as many people but enough to win the EC) and they have got nothing but more of the same, only worse and more brazen and craven.

Kind of like a wheel, until something comes along to break it the cycle will continue, it will just go round and round. The swamp as it's affectionately known is safe enough for the time being.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What achievements would that be exactly? Millions more ( mostly black) people sent to prison for non-violent crime, of Clinton? An economic policy that consistently eroded worker rights in the United states, and exploited slave wages in other countries? The great accomplishment of the ACA, which exposed millions of more Americans to the predatory for-profit healthcare industry? All the while decrying calls for universal healthcare as unrealistic.

What a legacy of accomplishments.

Here is a list of 50 Obama accomplishments:

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/januaryfebruary-2017/obamas-top-50-accomplishments-revisited/

From the perspective of 'the left', it isn't everything they wanted or he promised but it stands up a hell of a lot better than what Trump has done for their causes over the last 4 years.

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

It says it all that you didn't or couldn't acknowledge any of positive things I highlighted that was recently done by 'Corporate Democrats' or the very likely negative outcomes for many groups if the GOP gets back in power.

If it isn't the 'pure' way you demand you simply don't care about the people impacted, whether it is positively or negatively.

You talked about the polices Biden says he will enact that would be great if and when he becomes president. I addressed that clearly. Obama and other corporate Democrats have a long history of saying nice things but the doing is a whole different ball game. I gave up believing what comes out of corporate Democrats mouths after Obama.

As for the supreme court overturning abortion rights and or anything else that is as a result of the 2016 election not this one.

As for your purity obsession again not me. Your the one obsessed with continuing an economic system alternating between Friedmanite Republicans and Corporate Democrats which has made the economic lives of the vast majority of Americans worse and will continue to do so. How dare I rail against that and push for an economy that structurally gives all opportunity and is fair economically to all not just the wealthy and powerful.

It is the classic hubris of the coporate Democrats that they think because they are the lesser of 2 evils they can just get the votes and get into power and maintain the corrupt duopoly on power that is DC currently ad infinitum.

Foxtrol

StringerBell wrote: »

Obama had good ideas, and good intentions but he ran into the political machine himself. He used up all of his political capital for the ACA (which was a very different bill by the time it got out of committee) and after that he had a republican house and senate to contend with that had a clearly defined plan of non cooperation.

Quite sad what happened when the people voted for change alright and you could argue the people voted for change this time around too (not as many people but enough to win the EC) and they have got nothing but more of the same, only worse and more brazen and craven.

Kind of like a wheel, until something comes along to break it the cycle will continue, it will just go round and round. The swamp as it's affectionately known is safe enough for the time being.

The problem is that if you can't break the wheel on a given cycle, you can either help it move somewhat in the direction you want it to go or sulk and do nothing, risking it moving in the opposite direction than you want.

I just don't and will probably never understand that latter mindset, it is both self sabotaging as well as completely inconsiderate of others.

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

The problem is that if you can't break the wheel on a given cycle, you can either help it move somewhat in the direction you want it to go or sulk and do nothing, risking it moving in the opposite direction than you want.

I just don't and will probably never understand that latter mindset, it is both self sabotaging as well as completely inconsiderate of others.

That is premised on the assumption that corporate Democrats make things better which the last few decades they economically have not done overall they have instead made things worse. Income inequality got worse under Obama and has continually got worse under Fredmanite Republicans and corporate Democrats for decades. Are corporate Democrats the lesser of 2 evils yes absolutely. But they have played their part in bringing American to the pathetic state it is in today as well.

everlast75

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What achievements would that be exactly?
What a legacy of accomplishments.

Mitch McConnell, day 1 of 44's presidency

"Yeah, we're gonna fight him on everything and make him a one term president"

Foxtrol

eire4 wrote: »

You talked about the polices Biden says he will enact that would be great if and when he becomes president. I addressed that clearly. Obama and other corporate Democrats have a long history of saying nice things but the doing is a whole different ball game. I gave up believing what comes out of corporate Democrats mouths after Obama.

As for the supreme court overturning abortion rights and or anything else that is as a result of the 2016 election not this one.

As for your purity obsession again not me. Your the one obsessed with continuing an economic system alternating between Friedmanite Republicans and Corporate Democrats which has made the economic lives of the vast majority of Americans worse and will continue to do so. How dare I rail against that and push for an economy that structurally gives all opportunity and is fair economically to all not just the wealthy and powerful.

It is the classic hubris of the coporate Democrats that they think because they are the lesser of 2 evils they can just get the votes and get into power and maintain the corrupt duopoly on power that is DC currently ad infinitum.

I'll re-post this quick bullet points of what Obama achieved. He promised more but to me the US was in a much better place thanks to what he achieved than if Romney or McCain were president.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/januaryfebruary-2017/obamas-top-50-accomplishments-revisited/

Your mindset is like that of a child who didn't get the exact toy they wanted for Christmas so they refuse to appreciate the gifts they did receive, when they could have gotten coal.

We're going around in circles again. You've shown you simply don't care about the people that have seen benefits to their lives because of things 'Corporate Democrats' have done, whereas I see how much better things are under them than the GOP (despite not being everything I'd wish). Our point of views are clear

everlast75

Nice to see Biden not marching to Trump's tune..


https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1314279438398431232?s=19

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Here is a list of 50 Obama accomplishments:

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/januaryfebruary-2017/obamas-top-50-accomplishments-revisited/

From the perspective of 'the left', it isn't everything they wanted or he promised but it stands up a hell of a lot better than what Trump has done for their causes over the last 4 years.

No one is arguing how awful Trump is. Obama, as a person, has in unimpeachable reputation ( pun intended).

What's not on that list:

Ending the war on terror
Ending the War on drugs
Comprehensive immigration reform
Universal health care
Electoral reform
Protection of workers rights, domestic and internationally

The Democrats have profited, quite literally oftentimes, from being the only alternative to a terrible Republican party. They don't have to actually do anything of substance, they can sit on the fact that they protect abortion rights and nominally care about minorities.

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'll re-post this quick bullet points of what Obama achieved. He promised more but to me the US was in a much better place thanks to what he achieved than if Romney or McCain were president.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/januaryfebruary-2017/obamas-top-50-accomplishments-revisited/

Your mindset is like that of a child who didn't get the exact toy they wanted for Christmas so they refuse to appreciate the gifts they did receive, when they could have gotten coal.

We're going around in circles again. You've shown you simply don't care about the people that have seen benefits to their lives because of things 'Corporate Democrats' have done, whereas I see how much better things are under them than the GOP (despite not being everything I'd wish). Our point of views are clear

And there it is you just could no hold out on the insults. Because I dare to have a different viewpoint I am a "child". A classic example of the hubris of the corporate Democrat to lash out against anybody who calls them out for only taking care of the rich and powerful economically.

How dare I point out that under corporate Democrats economic polices over the past few decades the vast majority of Americans have continued to see income inequality increase and structurally opportunity for Americans to succeed economically has not get better either.

I have never for one minute suggested that corporate Democrats are not a lesser evil then Republicans so no idea why your bringing up Romney or McCain. I am simply pointing out the economic policies of corporate Democrats have made things worse as well for the vast majority of Americans for decades.

Never said that the corporate Democrats do not throw out some crumbs either to the masses. They most definitely do. But if does not stop me pointing out that overall economically most Americans are worse off economically under corporate Democrats polices. Republicans a greater evil in that regard no question but the corporate Democrats have played their part in leaving the US in the pathetic state it is today.

rossie1977

Student loan affordability act. Every single Republican voted against it, every Democrat voted for it https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/44550

Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Funding, all but one Republican voted against it, all Democrats for https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/9034

Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2013, all but one Republican against, all Democrats for https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/46286

Paycheck fairness act, all Republicans against, all but one Democrat for https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/32830

End the bureau of consumer financial protection, all but one Republican for, all but one Democrat against https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/30296

Thanks just a sampling. For 40 years now the Republicans through the media have tried to convince people that the Democrats don't care about the little guy, that both parties are essentially two sides of the same coin etc etc. Reality is that is complete horse-s**t. The difference between both parties couldn't be more stark.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

No one is arguing how awful Trump is. Obama, as a person, has in unimpeachable reputation ( pun intended).

What's not on that list:

Ending the war on terror
Ending the War on drugs
Comprehensive immigration reform
Universal health care
Electoral reform
Protection of workers rights, domestic and internationally

The Democrats have profited, quite literally oftentimes, from being the only alternative to a terrible Republican party. They don't have to actually do anything of substance, they can sit on the fact that they protect abortion rights and nominally care about minorities.

The president is not a king. There is only so much they can do without the house and 60 votes in the senate.

Any person believing different doesn't understand the US political system and any politician telling you different is a liar.

eire4

rossie1977 wrote: »

Student loan affordability act. Every single Republican voted against it, every Democrat voted for it https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/44550

Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Funding, all but one Republican voted against it, all Democrats for https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/9034

Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2013, all but one Republican against, all Democrats for https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/46286

Paycheck fairness act, all Republicans against, all but one Democrat for https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/32830

End the bureau of consumer financial protection, all but one Republican for, all but one Democrat against https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/votes/30296

Thanks just a sampling. For 40 years now the Republicans through the media have tried to convince people that the Democrats don't care about the little guy, that both parties are essentially two sides of the same coin etc etc. Reality is that is complete horse-s**t. The difference between both parties couldn't be more stark.

Agreed. The Republicans at this point have lurched so far to the right economically they are utterly owned and paid for and take care of the economic interests of the very richest and most powerful of Americans. No question the Democrats are nowhere near that level. But they nonetheless are a centre right party economically who govern economically in a manner that takes care of the rich and wealth just a larger proportion of Americans say the top 20% or so. The reality of continual income inequality growth shows that overall. They have shown little interest in changing the economy in a structural way through taxation and other means to make the lives of the vast majority of Americans better.

The Dodd-Frank act ( of which the consumer protection bureau was a part of) after the financial crash is a classic example .Was that a step in the right direct yes absolutely. Was that better then what the Republicans wanted and or would have done again yes absolutely. But they refused to reinstate the Glass Steagall act which separated investment banking and retail banking. Thus allowing the massive banks to just get bigger and bigger then they were before the crash and continue to behave in risky ways albeit with some restrictions. I should also add here it was another Corporate Democrat Bill Clinton who signed into law the bill that ended Glass Steagall and set the ball rolling for the financial collapse of 2008.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

The president is not a king. There is only so much they can do without the house and 60 votes in the senate.

Any person believing different doesn't understand the US political system and any politician telling you different is a liar.

Obama had a double majority when he took office, and utterly squandered it.

the President also absolutely has the authority to end the war on drugs, and end of the war on terror.

Foxtrol

eire4 wrote: »

And there it is you just could no hold out on the insults. Because I dare to have a different viewpoint I am a "child". A classic example of the hubris of the corporate Democrat to lash out against anybody who calls them out for only taking care of the rich and powerful economically.

How dare I point out that under corporate Democrats economic polices over the past few decades the vast majority of Americans have continued to see income inequality increase and structurally opportunity for Americans to succeed economically has not get better either.

I have never for one minute suggested that corporate Democrats are not a lesser evil then Republicans so no idea why your bringing up Romney or McCain. I am simply pointing out the economic policies of corporate Democrats have made things worse as well for the vast majority of Americans for decades.

Never said that the corporate Democrats do not throw out some crumbs either to the masses. They most definitely do. But if does not stop me pointing out that overall economically most Americans are worse off economically under corporate Democrats polices. Republicans a greater evil in that regard no question but the corporate Democrats have played their part in leaving the US in the pathetic state it is today.

I didn't call you a child, I said the perspective you have is childlike. Calling benefits that are incredibly important to people 'crumbs' just because they aren't high on your priority list is more of the same.

Looking at the bit in bold, Americans are only worse off compared to your godlike pure candidate, who takes the power of a king and ignores the US system checks and balances. Presidents can't just do what they want and create the utopia you think they can

StringerBell

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Obama had a double majority when he took office, and utterly squandered it.

the President also absolutely has the authority to end the war on drugs, and end of the war on terror.

That's not really accurate though. He didn't squander it, he used it all up to get through a patched up version of the ACA. He was opposed on absolutely everything and had to use his resources as best he saw fit, he staked his name on health-care and it is more popular today than it ever was. Perfect? Obviously not.

I don't agree with the characterisation of the second paragraph either. It's a very simplistic outlook on very complex matters.

everlast75

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Obama had a double majority when he took office, and utterly squandered it.

the President also absolutely has the authority to end the war on drugs, and end of the war on terror.

Show me how exactly, using facts, figures, basis and verifiable information Obama could have ended the war on drugs within 2 years, and how he could have ended the war on terror with all implications of withdrawing troops, how that would affect their allies and all unintended consequences.

I'll wait.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Obama had a double majority when he took office, and utterly squandered it.

A majority that was filibuster proof for 72 days in session and included several from red states that wouldn't pass anything too progressive.

the President also absolutely has the authority to end the war on drugs, and end of the war on terror.

To some extent that is true but there is a political and moral elements to consider beyond the easy soundbite. Democrats got slaughtered for the ACA and imagine if on top of that they ceded ground on law and order and international safety (forget about how many innocent people would have been slaughtered if there was an even quicker withdrawal from the middle east).

eire4

Foxtrol wrote: »

I didn't call you a child, I said the perspective you have is childlike. Calling benefits that are incredibly important to people 'crumbs' just because they aren't high on your priority list is more of the same.

Looking at the bit in bold, Americans are only worse off compared to your godlike pure candidate, who takes the power of a king and ignores the US system checks and balances. Presidents can't just do what they want and create the utopia you think they can

Ahh right you are I apologize you only called me "childlike" fair enough I stand corrected because my viewpoints or "perspective" as you say are completely detached from my person and are completely separate.

Americans are worse off economically the vast majority of them at any rate over the past few decades that is a fact. In 1980 the top 1% took 8% now hat number is close to 20%.

I have no idea what your talking about in your last paragraph. All I can say there is to reiterate that there is no question that corporate Democrats are a lesser evil then Republicans. No question at all I have never for a minute said otherwise. They are nonetheless still a party devoted to taking care of the rich and not the vast majority of Americans economically. It seems your ok with that and of course that is your right. I am just going to keep pointing out who the corporate Democrats take care of overall because I am not ok with that and instead believe in pushing for economic policies that will benefit the vast majority not just the wealthy.
I would also say that FDR managed to do a pretty bang up job of making the economic lives of the vast Majority of Americans better. That is where the Democratic party should be going direction wise.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

A majority that was filibuster proof for 72 days in session and included several from red states that wouldn't pass anything too progressive.

They could have done what they did years later, and get rid of the filbuster. Or shown some spine and forced Republicans to actually to do it. As ever though, the Democrats are weak, in comparison to the Republicans, when it comes to pursuing their agenda.

To some extent that is true but there is a political and moral elements to consider beyond the easy soundbite. Democrats got slaughtered for the ACA and imagine if on top of that they ceded ground on law and order and international safety (forget about how many innocent people would have been slaughtered if there was an even quicker withdrawal from the middle east).

Not trying to hash over the Obama presidency, but painting him as a liberal standard bearer, and Biden by proxy, is wildly off base. He was another in a long line of centrists, whose only differing feature from Republicans is their stance on abortion and minority rights.

They got slaughtered delivering a compromised Act, that failed to achieve a universal or single payer option, and instead created a confusing morass. 30+ million got access to a system designed to exploit them and leave them in financial peril if they actually need it. One of the greatest missed opportunities the history of modern American politics.

Imagine if Obama and the Democrats had displayed some spine and personal courage to make the right decisions, instead of easy ones. For all their talk of morality, they continued and expanded the Forever War. Bush gets rightly castigated for the disastrous decision to invade Iraq, and the chaos that resulted. Obama over saw the ousting of Gaddafi in Libya, which has had disastrous impact on the region.He expanded the burgeoning surveillance state, for which Snowden is treated as a traitor for exposing to this day.

That doesn't even touch on domestic issues. He's lauded for being the first black President, yet continued the failed policies of the War on Drugs.

AbusesToilets

everlast75 wrote: »

Mitch McConnell, day 1 of 44's presidency

"Yeah, we're gonna fight him on everything and make him a one term president"

Obama and the Dems had control. McConnell couldn't have done anything if the Dems had wielded their power. You know, the way McConnell and the Republicans do.

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

As ever though, the Democrats are weak, in comparison to the Republicans, when it comes to pursuing their agenda.

This is objectively correct. The dems are renowned for weakness and their inability to capitalise on electoral success. They are the eternal knife to a gunfight party.

AbusesToilets

everlast75 wrote: »

Show me how exactly, using facts, figures, basis and verifiable information Obama could have ended the war on drugs within 2 years, and how he could have ended the war on terror with all implications of withdrawing troops, how that would affect their allies and all unintended consequences.

I'll wait.

Well, again as a starter, the Democrats had complete control of government. For 2 years. To start with, he could have directed Federal agencies to no longer prosecute personal drug offenses. Shifted resources to engage it as a health issue, not a criminal one.

As leader of the party, he could have pushed legalisation/ decriminalisation across the board. He could have pushed for a policy of expunging criminal records for those jailed for non-violent drug offenses. The states are doing now where marijuana is legal.

Hardly some insurmountable challenge to tackle.

As to the Forever War, he could have simply left Afghanistan. That's more or less it. This idea that the US owes them anything at this point is ridiculous. Likewise with Iraq. The US withdrew initially because of a failure to agree on a new Status of Forces agreement. They should have stayed gone. Obama also could have no supported overthrowing Gaddafi, which plunged the region into fresh wave of violence and chaos. He should've stayed out of Syria completely, after Congress refusing to back action there. Instead they gave half assed support, that has only served to prolong a conflict for years and created an unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They could have done what they did years later, and get rid of the filbuster. Or shown some spine and forced Republicans to actually to do it. As ever though, the Democrats are weak, in comparison to the Republicans, when it comes to pursuing their agenda.

They only got rid of it for judges and look where we are now. The only reason Trump's worst instincts have been kept at bay is because the filibuster is still there for nearly everything else.

I do hope if the Dems get in they show spine and at minimum remove the filibuster, rebalance the courts, and give statehood to DC and PR.

Not trying to hash over the Obama presidency, but painting him as a liberal standard bearer, and Biden by proxy, is wildly off base. He was another in a long line of centrists, whose only differing feature from Republicans is their stance on abortion and minority rights.

They got slaughtered delivering a compromised Act, that failed to achieve a universal or single payer option, and instead created a confusing morass. 30+ million got access to a system designed to exploit them and leave them in financial peril if they actually need it. One of the greatest missed opportunities the history of modern American politics.

Imagine if Obama and the Democrats had displayed some spine and personal courage to make the right decisions, instead of easy ones. For all their talk of morality, they continued and expanded the Forever War. Bush gets rightly castigated for the disastrous decision to invade Iraq, and the chaos that resulted. Obama over saw the ousting of Gaddafi in Libya, which has had disastrous impact on the region.He expanded the burgeoning surveillance state, for which Snowden is treated as a traitor for exposing to this day.

That doesn't even touch on domestic issues. He's lauded for being the first black President, yet continued the failed policies of the War on Drugs.

There simply wasn't the votes for any other form of ACA. You can believe that the democrats wouldn't have been slaughtered if they went for a more aggressive universal healthcare option but I think you're wrong. People complained about losing their doctors, imagine what would have happened if people also had their insurance taken away, along with additional wait time, costs etc. It is 10 years later and despite Bernie and co banging the drum for it for 6 years, universal healthcare still polls poorly when you bring in known downsides to it.

I feel you're ignoring the political reality of Obama's time and even the support for things right now.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

They only got rid of it for judges and look where we are now. The only reason Trump's worst instincts have been kept at bay is because the filibuster is still there for nearly everything else.

I do hope if the Dems get in they show spine and at minimum remove the filibuster, rebalance the courts, and give statehood to DC and PR.



There simply wasn't the votes for any other form of ACA. You can believe that the democrats wouldn't have been slaughtered if they went for a more aggressive universal healthcare option but I think you're wrong. People complained about losing their doctors, imagine what would have happened if people also had their insurance taken away, along with additional wait time, costs etc. It is 10 years later and despite Bernie and co banging the drum for it for 6 years, universal healthcare still polls poorly when you bring in known downsides to it.

I feel you're ignoring the political reality of Obama's time and even the support for things right now.

Obama's eternal mistake was believing that the Republicans would work with him. He and the Democrats were given two years to accomplish anything, if they had the will. They didn't.

I hope that the Democrats won't repeat that mistake if they secure majorities again, but I don't have much confidence in that.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Obama's eternal mistake was believing that the Republicans would work with him. He and the Democrats were given two years to accomplish anything, if they had the will. They didn't.

I hope that the Democrats won't repeat that mistake if they secure majorities again, but I don't have much confidence in that.

Agree with most of that. I think the bigger miscalculation was not doing things in a different order and/or multiple things at once. Electoral reform should have been relatively easy and would have stopped a lot of the mess that has happened since.

Where we disagree is that due to red state democrats, Obama never had real power to do the more extreme things you wanted.

Trump and McConnel have reset the rulebook at this point so politically there is much more cover for ramming things true than when Obama was in power. My fear is that Biden will fall into the same trap and let precious time go by while trying to work with Republicans

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Agree with most of that. I think the bigger miscalculation was not doing things in a different order and/or multiple things at once. Electoral reform should have been relatively easy and would have stopped a lot of the mess that has happened since.

Where we disagree is that due to red state democrats, Obama never had real power to do the more extreme things you wanted.

Trump and McConnel have reset the rulebook at this point so politically there is much more cover for ramming things true than when Obama was in power. My fear is that Biden will fall into the same trap and let precious time go by while trying to work with Republicans

I would be rather more cynical than you, regarding the likelihood of Biden pursuing policy that would have a major impact on a given industry. Remember it was as much the vested interests of corporate healthcare businesses that scuppered the single payer option for the ACA, as it was Republicans.

I agree with you about legislative priority. They have to end the Republicans ability to undermine democracy. Gerrymandering, disenfranchisement, corporate money, all of it needs to be corrected.

dark crystal

https://twitter.com/GeoffRBennett/status/1314296100115767297

I'm not sure if this is the smartest move right now, so close to the election. Even if it passed in the House, It wouldn't pass in the Senate.

What is the reasoning behind this? Is it just the erratic Tweets (not unusual) or something else more serious? I know Pence abruptly cancelled his planned trip to Indiana tomorrow to vote early and flew back to Washington today instead.

I'd love to know what's behind this move...

Foxtrol

dark crystal wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GeoffRBennett/status/1314296100115767297

I'm not sure if this is the smartest move right now, so close to the election. Even if it passed in the House, It wouldn't pass in the Senate.

What is the reasoning behind this? Is it just the erratic Tweets (not unusual) or something else more serious? I know Pence abruptly cancelled his planned trip to Indiana tomorrow to vote early and flew back to Washington today instead.

I'd love to know what's behind this move...

Poking Trump for a reaction? The more wild they can make him the better

BonnieSituation

But the Dems have this almost in the bag, this sort of play means Haris and Biden are going to be asked questions on this, needlessly. Gives Reps that were gonna stay home a clarion call from Mitch to get the vote out to stop the Dems taking all 3 branches.

I really hope there's a point to this.

Zubeneschamali

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But the Dems have this almost in the bag, this sort of play means Haris and Biden are going to be asked questions.

Great, let's talk about Trumps ill health from now until the election, perfect.

seamus

dark crystal wrote: »

What is the reasoning behind this? Is it just the erratic Tweets (not unusual) or something else more serious? I know Pence abruptly cancelled his planned trip to Indiana tomorrow to vote early and flew back to Washington today instead.

I'd love to know what's behind this move...

There's always a lot more information known in politicial circles than gets leaked to the press.

We can see a small glimpse of Trump's current state of mind from Twitter and Fox, but I would say there are some insane stories coming out of the White House.

He is on a heavy steroid with thought-altering effects, he is still badly symptomatic with Covid.

Pelosi knows all this and more. But she also knows that the whole "fit to lead" thing is at the core of Trump's ego, and his support. If the White House is forced out into the public to try and prove he is capable when he's obviously not, it will absolutely crush the administration.

Privately she's probably hoping we'll see a mushroom cloud from Trump and he'll make a complete clown of himself.

Hiding the current state of the President's health is not a new thing, many administrations have done this over the years. Which is why nobody believes Trump's doctor's claim that he's good to go. Pence cancelling his trip tells me that there is absolute panic at the heart of the administration that Trump is not well but is not under control.