US Presidential Election 2020

Gbear

briany wrote: »

There's a great clip on Youtube that is a condensed version of the Young Turks' show for election night 2016. In the space of half an hour, they go from fairly smug about Hillary's chances to having a major meltdown. But the climax of it was host Cenk Uygur's lambasting of the DNC and their corporatism and promising to 'pulverise' it and 'rip it to shreds'. Those things have not happened, and those things will probably never happen. If the younger, idealistic folk of the USA want a real alternative, they will have to actually create one via a 3rd party.

That's an even bigger waste of time.

Even in the UK where they don't have as strong a tether to poltical duopoly, I don't believe any third party has cracked so much as 10% of the seats in a hundred years.

It is not viable to attempt to go third party in a system that is fundamentally structured to produce two.

The ultimate goal of anyone who doesn't fit in the big tent parties - Leftists, Libertarians, Greens, or whatever, should be to infiltrate those parties and push as their single most important issue, implementation of proporational voting, or otherwise deconstruct an electoral system which is inimical to the establishment of nuanced political structures.

Rjd2

Gbear wrote: »

That's an even bigger waste of time.

Even in the UK where they don't have as strong a tether to poltical duopoly, I don't believe any third party has cracked so much as 10% of the seats in a hundred years.

It is not viable to attempt to go third party in a system that is fundamentally structured to produce two.

The ultimate goal of anyone who doesn't fit in the big tent parties - Leftists, Libertarians, Greens, or whatever, should be to infiltrate those parties and push as their single most important issue, implementation of proporational voting, or otherwise deconstruct an electoral system which is inimical to the establishment of nuanced political structures.

Sad but true.

2024 whoever is on the losing side will be fascinating to watch.

The left represented by AOC will be in a stronger position with demographic changes and climate change been an emergency while the right will have a war with the neocons making 1 last power grab with someone like Hailey, De Santis or Crenshaw while Trumpism will be repackaged under someone like Donald JR, Hawley etc.

eire4

Gbear wrote: »

That's an even bigger waste of time.

Even in the UK where they don't have as strong a tether to poltical duopoly, I don't believe any third party has cracked so much as 10% of the seats in a hundred years.

It is not viable to attempt to go third party in a system that is fundamentally structured to produce two.

The ultimate goal of anyone who doesn't fit in the big tent parties - Leftists, Libertarians, Greens, or whatever, should be to infiltrate those parties and push as their single most important issue, implementation of proporational voting, or otherwise deconstruct an electoral system which is inimical to the establishment of nuanced political structures.

The main reason this is correct is that in the US at the local and state and federal level they have all sorts of rules set up by the Republicans and Democrats to make sure no third parties can really become viable and seriously threaten their duopoly on power. An example of the insidious nature of this duopoly on power is the so call Presidential Debates. They make it seem like this is a whole neutral organization set up to organize these debates. When in fact the Presidential debates commission is a company set up and run by the Republicans and Democrats with rules they put in place to make it very difficult for any genuine other voices emerge outside the 2 corrupt parties in power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Presidential_Debates

everlast75

Not a good sign for Trump...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1237832247492960261?s=19

briany

Gbear wrote: »

That's an even bigger waste of time.

Even in the UK where they don't have as strong a tether to poltical duopoly, I don't believe any third party has cracked so much as 10% of the seats in a hundred years.

It is not viable to attempt to go third party in a system that is fundamentally structured to produce two.

The ultimate goal of anyone who doesn't fit in the big tent parties - Leftists, Libertarians, Greens, or whatever, should be to infiltrate those parties and push as their single most important issue, implementation of proporational voting, or otherwise deconstruct an electoral system which is inimical to the establishment of nuanced political structures.

eire4 wrote: »

The main reason this is correct is that in the US at the local and state and federal level they have all sorts of rules set up by the Republicans and Democrats to make sure no third parties can really become viable and seriously threaten their duopoly on power. An example of the insidious nature of this duopoly on power is the so call Presidential Debates. They make it seem like this is a whole neutral organization set up to organize these debates. When in fact the Presidential debates commission is a company set up and run by the Republicans and Democrats with rules they put in place to make it very difficult for any genuine other voices emerge outside the 2 corrupt parties in power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Presidential_Debates

You're never going to fix a political duopoly like the U.S. has by working within it. If all the left-wing movement of the United States is going to do is bleat on about how the debates are controlled by the Dems and the Republicans then they're just perpetuating their woes. They have other methods nowadays to get their message out there and coordinate themselves. They may not be able to get on the debate stage, but they can make a political movement that's too big to ignore, and they can get names on the ballot, and they can go and vote for those people. The way is clear, but the will appears to be lacking.

eire4

briany wrote: »

You're never going to fix a political duopoly like the U.S. has by working within it. If all the left-wing movement of the United States is going to do is bleat on about how the debates are controlled by the Dems and the Republicans then they're just perpetuating their woes. They have other methods nowadays to get their message out there and coordinate themselves. They may not be able to get on the debate stage, but they can make a political movement that's too big to ignore, and they can get names on the ballot, and they can go and vote for those people. The way is clear, but the will appears to be lacking.

It is not quite as simple as that as even at local and state level the Democrats and Republicans have put in place various regulations designed to prevent alternatives emerging that can actually become viable ultimately on a national scale.

I do hear what your saying though and there needs to be some movement to pull away and form other parties but given the above it is very difficult and sadly it has not happened yet.

Gbear

briany wrote: »

You're never going to fix a political duopoly like the U.S. has by working within it. If all the left-wing movement of the United States is going to do is bleat on about how the debates are controlled by the Dems and the Republicans then they're just perpetuating their woes. They have other methods nowadays to get their message out there and coordinate themselves. They may not be able to get on the debate stage, but they can make a political movement that's too big to ignore, and they can get names on the ballot, and they can go and vote for those people. The way is clear, but the will appears to be lacking.

If Biden is elected, he will be doing so on the most progressive platform in a century, and possibly in the history of the country.

With AOC being made the face of the party by the Republicans who are obsessed with her because they're racist mysoginists, and Sander's success, there has been a sense that the left had "taken over" the party, but the primaries have shown that's it's actually still relatively moderate.
But, the policy platform has still shifted, and that is also because the left-wingers, driving the party that direction and moving the debate. Obamacare was like pulling teeth once upon a time. Now it's the bare minimum.

Utopianism is **** politics. Radicalism is **** politics. They don't win. Look at what happened to Corbynism. You must accept incremental progression, or all you're going to get is incremental regression.

Water John

Trump is addressing the country on Covid 19 at 9 pm ET. If he gets the tone of this wrong, he's cooked.

Itssoeasy

Water John wrote: »

Trump is addressing the country on Covid 19 at 9 pm ET. If he gets the tone of this wrong, he's cooked.

As much as I think he'll go down as a bad president even I hope he gets this speech right tonight. Whether he does or not remains to be seen.

Itssoeasy

VP Pence gave a much better performance last weekend of the weekend before on the Sunday shows. It wasn't what he said(although he seemed to have some grasp) but it was his tone and the fact he's able to string a sentence together.

It can't be overstated how much effect the decades of anti-Clinton propaganda had.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

It can't be overstated how much effect the decades of anti-Clinton propaganda had.

Or how much that was misread as support for Bernie during 2016.

It will be very interesting to see if we see this continue with Trump. The Trump campaign clearly had some numbers that had him scared enough to risk impeachment to dig up dirt.

Foxtrol

So it is looking like Bernie is going to help out Trump again this year, like he did in 2016, by dragging this primary out as long as possible and inflicting as much damage and cost as he can on Biden.

For all the talk of doing everything he can to beat Trump. Bernie puts Bernie first again.

DreamsBurnDown

Gbear wrote: »

If Biden is elected, he will be doing so on the most progressive platform in a century, and possibly in the history of the country.

This is what's good about Bernie staying in, at least until after the debate next Sunday and the primaries Tuesday. He needs to put pressure on Biden to commit to certain core principles. There's a lot of support for Bernie's platform, even if most people know how difficult it is to implement. The swing to Biden is more to do with confidence in beating Trump and concern with how the platform can be implemented.

The bottom line is that all Democrats are progressive, especially on social issues. Every incremental gain has to be fought over, just like Obamacare it's step by step. Help those most in need, there is no urgency with giving free healthcare, third level education, etc. to those that can well afford it.

Foxtrol

DreamsBurnDown wrote: »

This is what's good about Bernie staying in, at least until after the debate next Sunday and the primaries Tuesday. He needs to put pressure on Biden to commit to certain core principles. There's a lot of support for Bernie's platform, even if most people know how difficult it is to implement. The swing to Biden is more to do with confidence in beating Trump and concern with how the platform can be implemented.

The bottom line is that all Democrats are progressive, especially on social issues. Every incremental gain has to be fought over, just like Obamacare it's step by step. Help those most in need, there is no urgency with giving free healthcare, third level education, etc. to those that can well afford it.

He put plenty of pressure on Hillary to move her platform left by dragging the 2016 primary out and that platform was really helpful with Trump throwing kids in cages, pulling out of climate agreement, stacking courts etc etc.

Bernie could call up Biden and come to agreements away from the camera but of course Bernie wont do that because he wants to grandstand and throw a few hail marys - the conseqences be damned.

DreamsBurnDown

Foxtrol wrote: »

He put plenty of pressure on Hillary to move her platform left by dragging the 2016 primary out and that platform was really helpful with Trump throwing kids in cages, pulling out of climate agreement, stacking courts etc etc.

Bernie could call up Biden and come to agreements away from the camera but of course Bernie wont do that because he wants to grandstand and throw a few hail marys - the conseqences be damned.

Biden isn't Hillary though, he really isn't an egomaniac and genuinely wants to do the right thing. Hillary lost the election all on her own, no need to blame anyone else.

Rjd2

DreamsBurnDown wrote: »

This is what's good about Bernie staying in, at least until after the debate next Sunday and the primaries Tuesday. He needs to put pressure on Biden to commit to certain core principles. There's a lot of support for Bernie's platform, even if most people know how difficult it is to implement. The swing to Biden is more to do with confidence in beating Trump and concern with how the platform can be implemented.

.

Their is no harm in Bernie staying in for another week or two. Lets see if Biden can withstand a 1 v 1 debate and how the primaries play out next week.

It does look over but Bernie can at least tackle Biden on the M4ALL, Environment , his support for Iraq war and student debt, these are issues that the boomers may not care about, but maybe he could reassure some of the younger people his stance on the above is not all bad.

Foxtrol

DreamsBurnDown wrote: »

Biden isn't Hillary though, he really isn't an egomaniac and genuinely wants to do the right thing. Hillary lost the election all on her own, no need to blame anyone else.

Hillary is plenty to blame for it but Bernie takes some as well. He dragged out the primary despite losing it one on one in whatever way you looked at the votes, turning more toxic as it went on. She lost by only 100k votes across 3 states, an easy amount to make up if Bernie dropped out when he should have and provided an instant full endorsement.

Barring Biden having a complete meltdown or a serious medical issue there is no path for Bernie to win (even then I don't think he has much of a chance). If you believe Biden wants to do the right thing then there is no benefit to doing things on a stage. Bernie is doing exactly what Trump wants, doing all he can to weaken Biden for the general.

Foxtrol

Rjd2 wrote: »

Their is no harm in Bernie staying in for another week or two. Lets see if Biden can withstand a 1 v 1 debate and how the primaries play out next week.

It does look over but Bernie can at least tackle Biden on the M4ALL, Environment , his support for Iraq war and student debt, these are issues that the boomers may not care about, but maybe he could reassure some of the younger people his stance on the above is not all bad.

Same was said in 2016. Turned out to be complete bullsh1t then, as it is now.

everlast75

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1237927758971494400?s=19

I patiently await all those who mocked Biden to express their concern about Trump's mental acuity

Midster

Fact trump may have rigged the election in his favour to get into the whitehouse in the first place doesn’t matter

Trumps attitude towards women doesn’t matter

Trumps attitude towards people of darker skin doesn’t matter

Nor towards people of foreign race

Or his attitude towards any kind of free healthcare

Nothing of what he has done before will have any impact what so ever on his popularity-unpopularity in the upcoming election.

What will make him, or break him is his speed and competence of dealing with the Coronavirus wildfire that’s building within the American population.

Which at the moment the rest of the world is looking at as ignorant, incompetent inaction.

Once the wildfire takes hold, and the American public begin to die in there hundreds, if not thousands, trump will be out on his ear faster than you can say the word evicted.

This is the only thing that will matter

Wanderer78

Midster wrote:

Once the wildfire takes hold, and the American public begin to die in there hundreds, if not thousands, trump will be out on his ear faster than you can say the word evicted.

The man's like a cockroach, he won't be out, till he's out, and that could very well be in 4 years

briany

Midster wrote: »

Fact trump may have rigged the election in his favour to get into the whitehouse in the first place doesn’t matter

Trumps attitude towards women doesn’t matter

Trumps attitude towards people of darker skin doesn’t matter

Nor towards people of foreign race

Or his attitude towards any kind of free healthcare

Nothing of what he has done before will have any impact what so ever on his popularity-unpopularity in the upcoming election.

What will make him, or break him is his speed and competence of dealing with the Coronavirus wildfire that’s building within the American population.

Which at the moment the rest of the world is looking at as ignorant, incompetent inaction.

Once the wildfire takes hold, and the American public begin to die in there hundreds, if not thousands, trump will be out on his ear faster than you can say the word evicted.

This is the only thing that will matter

"It's a Democratic hoax, folks. It was made in a lab in Mexico by Nancy Pelosi and a traitorous coven of Communist acolytes."

serfboard

Foxtrol wrote: »

Same was said in 2016. Turned out to be complete bullsh1t then, as it is now.

Yes, Hillary lost the 2016 election because of Bernie.

Also because of the Russians, James Comey, the Media etc. etc. etc.

Foxtrol

serfboard wrote: »

Yes, Hillary lost the 2016 election because of Bernie.

Also because of the Russians, James Comey, the Media etc. etc. etc.

I've said consistently that Hillary holds most of the blame for her loss.

You however have blinkers on if you think the 100k vote margin that won Trump the election couldn't have been swayed by any/all of the things you listed or Bernie dragging things out and making things as toxic as possible before eventually supporting her. The whole primary process has shown he and his team have learned absolutely nothing during the 2016 and it is why he is badly failing.

Water John

I think Sanders will move wholeheartedly to support Biden. He will use the debate to push his agenda, but hopefully he won't go on all out attack, which could be damaging. He has stated clearly the imperative of removing Trump.
The best way is for Biden to acknowledge and bring in the progressive wing to his orbit. Both need to tango.

rossie1977

There is no path to victory for Sanders so not sure why he is staying in race. Next week's primaries ie Florida, Illinois, Ohio and Arizona were all won by Clinton in 2016 and Biden is easily out polling Clinton so far so next Tuesday looks complete wipe out for Bernie.

As others have stated this should be a time when Dems come together. Trump and his team are making a complete balls of the coronavirus response.

pjdarcy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

VP Pence gave a much better performance last weekend of the weekend before on the Sunday shows. It wasn't what he said(although he seemed to have some grasp) but it was his tone and the fact he's able to string a sentence together.

Incredible that this is what has become of US politics. Trump v Biden is almost ridiculous. Neither of them are fit for the office IMO. I won't bother to delve into the many personality defects of the former and the latter doesn't appear to be anywhere near sharp enough mentally for the job.

Water John

The same would be said about Pelosi or Nadler. Watch them and see their hesitancies. Biden would be fine. I'd had preferred a more radical approach, but normality isn't a bad option for POTUS either.

serfboard

Foxtrol wrote: »

The whole primary process has shown he and his team have learned absolutely nothing during the 2016

Indeed. And what he should have learned was that the Democratic establishment was never going to let him get the nomination, and that he should have gone the third party route.

Midster

briany wrote: »

"It's a Democratic hoax, folks. It was made in a lab in Mexico by Nancy Pelosi and a traitorous coven of Communist acolytes."

I’m sure that, that really is the angle he will most likely try to make people believe.

But if your for him, or against him, seeing your fellow Americans die of the Coronavirus while there is very little in place to stop the spread, while other countries have and are pledging billions to go to war with it will definitely leave them with some very valid questions he will have to answer.

If he heard of the outbreak in China, why didn’t he follow professional opinion.

Why was there no tracking.

If he knew the virus had then made it to American shores, why didn’t he act more quickly to contain it.

Why were the test kits needed to pick up on who had the virus manufactured more quickly and distributed.

Why is it spreading and very little seems to be being done about it.

Why so blahsay about it, as if it posed no credible threat to the American people, when other countries are already pledging billions to combat the spread.

This time he has nobody to argue with, but when it gets out of control, inside his own country, on his own watch, he will have everyone, both his supporters and his haters, political and non political to answer to.

This is why I believe that this will be his un doing,

pixelburp

Being the genius political strategist that I am not, I wonder if Biden's smartest move right now is to project an air of calm deliberation, maybe start actively injecting himself into WHO or adjacent communications. To become the face of Corona in the US right now. Trump is out of his depth and floundering dangerously, so seems like there's a chance here for Biden or Sanders to step up and project the air of organisation and leadership his potential opponent currently lacks.

everlast75

pixelburp wrote: »

Being the genius political strategist that I am not, I wonder if Biden's smartest move right now is to project an air of calm deliberation, maybe start actively injecting himself into WHO or adjacent communications. To become the face of Corona in the US right now. Trump is out of his depth and floundering dangerously, so seems like there's a chance here for Biden or Sanders to step up and project the air of organisation and leadership his potential opponent currently lacks.

He's doing exactly that. He is having an announcement at 1pm.

StringerBell

Bernie surprised me big time with his comments, I did not expect him to attempt to unify while looking for a dignified way out of the campaign. Making it crystal clear again that the main goal is beating Donald Trump, his attempt to give Biden room to win over the Sanders supporters is just not something I expected of him and I commend him for it. A measure of the man to be sure, not the stubborn old goat he so often is in this scenario. I see JC has pushed that Sanders should step away now but I think its better personally to have to continue and to have debates and battle harden Biden for the big one v Trump. Make no mistake Trump is one hell of an opponent when it comes to campaigning as we have seen already, Biden will need to be sharpened and Bernies supporters will need to be engaged and energised

Foxtrol

serfboard wrote: »

Indeed. And what he should have learned was that the Democratic establishment was never going to let him get the nomination, and that he should have gone the third party route.

The 'Democratic establishment' allowed Bernie to provide input into the rules this time, the only candidate that had that opportunity.

No matter how much you want to claim there is a boogie man, democrat voters are the reason why he isn't getting the nomination.

Bernie did practically nothing to broaden his appeal to these democratic voters, instead, like Trump, he spent the last 4 years stoking up his echo-chamber base. Bernie's failure is on Bernie and his team. Many people support the policies he is pushing but he is simply a terrible candidate.

serfboard

Foxtrol wrote: »

Bernie ... is simply a terrible candidate.

And yet polls had him as the most popular national politician in America, with a policy agenda that is overwhelmingly popular.

You think Sanders is a terrible candidate - if Biden manages to survive to the general election, you're going to see just what a terrible candidate really looks like.

Podge_irl

serfboard wrote: »

And yet polls had him as the most popular national politician in America, with a policy agenda that is overwhelmingly popular.

Then why aren't people voting for him?

He has not remotely grown his base since 4 years ago and the "democratic establishment" do not care for him because he is not a democrat and hasn't even pretended to be for the last 4 years either.

serfboard

Podge_irl wrote: »

Then why aren't people voting for him?

Because they're believing the BS that they're being fed that Biden is more "electable".

eire4

serfboard wrote: »

Because they're believing the BS that they're being fed that Biden is more "electable".

Electable is their euphemism for Corporate.

eire4

Podge_irl wrote: »

Then why aren't people voting for him?

He has not remotely grown his base since 4 years ago and the "democratic establishment" do not care for him because he is not a democrat and hasn't even pretended to be for the last 4 years either.

IMHO it is more because the Democratic establishment is corporate owned and wedded to Milton Friedman's disaster capitalism. They know Sanders would challenge that and look for policies that would actually help the vast majority of Americans and the corporate Democrats will do anything to not have that happen.

Foxtrol

serfboard wrote: »

And yet polls had him as the most popular national politician in America, with a policy agenda that is overwhelmingly popular.

Source? Are you taking his popularity in his home state that makes up 0.1% of America and is 94% white?

Latest polls show Bernie trailing Biden by 9% net favourability.

You think Sanders is a terrible candidate - if Biden manages to survive to the general election, you're going to see just what a terrible candidate really looks like.

How bad of candidate is Bernie if a near death Biden is destroying him so far? :rolleyes:

eagle eye

Is it possible the election gets called off due to covid-19 and Trump gets to stay in charge for longer. I wouldn't put it past him to try.

Dytalus

eagle eye wrote: »

Is it possible the election gets called off due to covid-19 and Trump gets to stay in charge for longer. I wouldn't put it past him to try.

Only Congress can set the date for an election, Trump has no authority to cancel the next one.

Come January 20th, 2021, if no election is held to replace (or reinstate) him Trump will cease to be President and Pence will cease to be Vice President.

The speaker of the house will become President - currently (and unless the Republicans gain 20 seats, will remain) Nancy Pelosi. He may not want to run an election, but it'd be really bad for him to avoid it.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

Is it possible the election gets called off due to covid-19 and Trump gets to stay in charge for longer. I wouldn't put it past him to try.

Trump could try, but he'd be pissing into the wind. It's ultimately up to Congress.

Trump cannot do it unilaterally. Only Congress can decide when the election takes place.

BonnieSituation

Dytalus wrote: »

Only Congress can set the date for an election, Trump has no authority to cancel the next one.

Come January 20th, 2021, if no election is held to replace (or reinstate) him Trump will cease to be President and Pence will cease to be Vice President.

The speaker of the house will become President - currently (and unless the Republicans gain 20 seats, will remain) Nancy Pelosi. He may not want to run an election, but it'd be really bad for him to avoid it.

They can't gain seats if there's no election.

Can someone explain to me how Pelosi would elevate to President in the event of no Presidential Election given that there would have been no Congressional election either?

duploelabs

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They can't gain seats if there's no election.

Can someone explain to me how Pelosi would elevate to President in the event of no Presidential Election given that there would have been no Congressional election either?

Prerry much covered here https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/calm-down-folks-donald-trump-cant-legally-use-the-coronavirus-to-move-2020-election-day-stay-in-office/

The Nal

Look at this. There is no way this man is electable.

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1238646776573419521?s=19

The Nal

The Nal wrote: »

Look at this. There is no way this man is electable.

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1238646776573419521?s=19

Look, anyone outside the over 65 bracket knows that Joe is in cognitive decline. The Yanks deserve what they get.

Hande hoche!

The Nal wrote: »

Look at this. There is no way this man is electable.

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1238646776573419521?s=19

Curious as to how much of a car crash the one on one debates will be?
Ultimately imagine his will be one of the most crucial VP picks.

The Nal

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Curious as to how much of a car crash the one on one debates will be?
Ultimately imagine his will be one of the most crucial VP picks.

Ideal situation is he somehow beats Trump with Harris as VP and they chuck him in a home on day 1 and we have president Harris.