Need to take my kids off their mom

LegacyUser

You've two options OP:

1) you can get more involved yourself as others have said in cleaning the house and spending time with the kids. They are certainly old enough to be doing more and if, as you say, your ex picked these habits up from her mum then you need to nip it now so your kids don't continue the cycle with their kids. You are there parent too OP, I know some people have been very hard on you and that maybe was uncalled for but if you want advice you can do you can look at being move involved - at least two of your kids are old enough to be able to talk to you about the situation.

2) Report to social services. Don't assume just because you report your ex that the kids will be taken away. The fact they are of the age they are and the limited foster places available chances are they would first offer support to your ex to help her sort herself out rather than just sweep in and remove the kids. the 16 year old at least is old enough to ask to stay with you. Of course we don't have all the details OP so we don't know if there is anything you've not stated that could result in them being removed straight away. If things are as bad you say I'm amazed a teacher hasn't already reported them to social services so be honest with yourself before you do anything - is it as bad as you claim or do you think your opinion is being cloudy by your relationship with your ex?

pwurple

7 years is a long time. You left when the youngest was 2 years old. Has it always been like this, with food etc? Is she just plain exhausted now? You take them during the day most weekends, except when you're meeting your friends or have something on. 

People are suggesting cooking courses etc, but tbh, if she can already do it, and has been for 6 out of the last 7 years, it's fairly insulting. 
Teenagers are great craic, but bloody hard going. I'm not surprised you got a load of abuse back when you started saying the house was messy. I'd swing for ya. She could be having a nervous breakdown at this stage. 

Offer support and help. Financially and otherwise.

LegacyUser

For people saying the older kids should step up because of their ages. No, those kids haven’t a clue what to do. Those kids don’t know how to wash, clean and cook because they only know what they’ve been brought up with. Those kids are neglected but probably don’t know they’re neglected. I come from a background like this and I can tell you as a teenager you do not know any different, you do not know the jokes are about you, you do not know you’re smelly, unkempt, whatever all you know is how you’ve been raised. You’re setting your kids up to be bullied and set in bad patterns for life. Their mother absolutely has mental health issues. She needs help, they need help, in that house, their home not outside it. They need routine, they need a new normal. You’re doing them a massive disservice. Where do you stand legally if not married to the woman? Start with the bins at least surely you can contribute to that!

Hangon18

Hangon18 wrote: »

For people saying the older kids should step up because of their ages. No, those kids haven’t a clue what to do. Those kids don’t know how to wash, clean and cook because they only know what they’ve been brought up with. Those kids are neglected but probably don’t know they’re neglected. I come from a background like this and I can tell you as a teenager you do not know any different, you do not know the jokes are about you, you do not know you’re smelly, unkempt, whatever all you know is how you’ve been raised. You’re setting your kids up to be bullied and set in bad patterns for life. Their mother absolutely has mental health issues. She needs help, they need help, in that house, their home not outside it. They need routine, they need a new normal. You’re doing them a massive disservice. Where do you stand legally if not married to the woman? Start with the bins at least surely you can contribute to that!

most people saying this are stressing the need for an initial period of someone showing them what needs to be done and supervision and follow up.

after that, there is nothing stopping a kid of twelve upwards helping out in small ways and the older children doing anything more responsible like cooking etc.

i'm sure there's plenty on thread came through similar situations as children- i'm one for a start. that doesnt mean they can't start learning now.

Owryan

Sounds like a strong argument for neglect which is something tusla would have to look at.

It's unlikely that the kids would be taken into care straight away unless there was an immediate danger to their well-being. And if there was, as their father (presumably with your parental rights) then you would be the first person considered.

fits

I think would be interesting to reverse sexes and think of a man struggling to cope with five children. The first thing to do is simple. Go in and HELP her. Make meals, do the laundry do some cleaning.

Sardonicat

Deleted User wrote: »

Hangon18 wrote: »

For people saying the older kids should step up because of their ages. No, those kids haven’t a clue what to do. Those kids don’t know how to wash, clean and cook because they only know what they’ve been brought up with. Those kids are neglected but probably don’t know they’re neglected. I come from a background like this and I can tell you as a teenager you do not know any different, you do not know the jokes are about you, you do not know you’re smelly, unkempt, whatever all you know is how you’ve been raised. You’re setting your kids up to be bullied and set in bad patterns for life. Their mother absolutely has mental health issues. She needs help, they need help, in that house, their home not outside it. They need routine, they need a new normal. You’re doing them a massive disservice. Where do you stand legally if not married to the woman? Start with the bins at least surely you can contribute to that!

after that, there is nothing stopping a kid of twelve upwards helping out in small ways and the older children doing anything more responsible like cooking etc.

Except in cases where they are actively prevented from cleaning themselves and their place up. Not saying that is happening here, but this type of deliberate abuse does occur and often isn't picked up because it is assumed to be a result of an overwhelmed parent, mental or physical health issues or a substance abuse problem.
Sometimes the parent is doing it to hurt the children. It happens, believe me.

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

after that, there is nothing stopping a kid of twelve upwards helping out in small ways and the older children doing anything more responsible like cooking etc.

And if the _parent who lives there_ can’t be bothered making sure this is done, why would they? It’s a rare teenager who is going to just take on the cooking and cleaning for 4 younger siblings.

I am honestly mind boggled at people giving this woman a pass cos she might be stressed and then expecting a 15 or 16 year old to take over from her, or the OP to add a 2 hour round trip onto his commute.

pwurple

kylith wrote: »

 or the OP to add a 2 hour round trip onto his commute.

I know right, God forbid he inconvenience himself in the slightest. 
Let's remind ourselves, it's his own children. If mine were going hungry or neglected, for any reason whatsoever, I'd be over there faster than a hot snot, rolling up my sleeves.

kylith

pwurple wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

 or the OP to add a 2 hour round trip onto his commute.

I know right, God forbid he inconvenience himself in the slightest. 
Let's remind ourselves, it's his own children. If mine were going hungry or neglected, for any reason whatsoever, I'd be over there faster than a hot snot, rolling up my sleeves.

He has asked for advice on how he can get help for the woman who lives there and is actively neglecting the children. I don’t see that there is anything remotely wrong with him reading her the riot act or threatening to all Tusla. We don’t know what his life isn’t like, we don’t know what his hours are or what his job is, what we do know is that despite the children being of schoolgoing age and therefore out of the house for much of the day this is apparently an ongoing problem.

All the talk of him going and doing the work is just enabling his ex. Talk of taking the children is unrealistic: 7 people in a 3 bed house of unknown size.

If she needs help, then she needs help, but he may not be best placed to give it. She blames the kids and they wind up having a row. A visit from Tusla might give her the kick up the behind she appears to need.

wiggle16

pwurple wrote: »

I know right, God forbid he inconvenience himself in the slightest. 
Let's remind ourselves, it's his own children. If mine were going hungry or neglected, for any reason whatsoever, I'd be over there faster than a hot snot, rolling up my sleeves.

Aren't you great! Let's just put the mother in the bath, like a dog, and give her a good wash too while we're scrubbing her house and going through her things. That won't humiliate and alienate her at all.

What is it you think the OP is or isn't doing?
- he is concerned for his kids welfare
- he is asking for advice re how to deal with the situation in their home
- he has said he would take them all in but he doesn't have the means or his own house and lives 30+ miles away, and is not sure of his legal position if he did just arrive and take them
- his attempts to get to the bottom of why his kids are unwashed and neglected by the parent they live with have been met with the parent they live with throwing all the blame on the two oldest children

What makes you think that the mother would let him come in and sort out her house? She will lash back at that, because it is humiliating, no matter how well intentioned it is.

The OP hasn't done anything wrong. He's been put in a very difficult situation where he might have to make some very difficult decisions, and yet a group of posters here just think it's oh so simple and that he "won't" take care of his own kids - it is becoming very obvious that some people have read the title and formed an opinion of the OP, and no matter what is said, the OP is still some kind of dead-beat dad, and that is completely outrageous and unjustified. People want to defend the mother at all costs, inventing excuses for her. That is not helpful, because saying "it's not her fault, she's depressed/overwhelmed/has mental health issues/doesn't get support/only has X amount of maintenance" doesn't change the fact that the kids are being neglected and are not things the OP can control, nor is he responsible for them. Yet responses continue to blame him.

- The children do not live with him. They live with their mother.

- Their mother is not taking care of them, for reasons that have not been properly established - and this is the whole point

- Some assume he can take the kids. He has outlined why he hasn't. In addition, he cannot come and unilaterally take the kids out of the house. The mother might not (read: absolutely will not) let him. The kids might refuse to go with him. His father might not allow him to take them in, or his father may be unwell. In addition, removing the kids from their home and the care of the parent they live with, without proper procedure, is abduction. He cannot do that without her consent.

- The mother may not allow him to come in and start cleaning her home and running her house - that's humiliating. Christ knows I wouldn't let anyone do that to me.
- Even if he did come in and completely nuke the place the clean, and cook some dinners, there is a serious underlying issue here with the mother and a good clean and feed is not going to address that, it is purely cosmetic. For example if you've ever dealt with a hoarder you'd know that there is no point in just cleaning the house out: the moment you leave it will start to build back up again. That is exactly what would happen here. You need to get to the root of it. And the OP cannot do that for her. She needs to identify and accept that there is an issue and address it.

- She has not asked for his help. At all. Instead he offered it. She was not acknowledging that there is an issue. Instead she was getting defensive, which has resulted in this thread, because she would not engage with him and he didn't know how to proceed, and that is absolutely fair enough.

OP I hope she continues to engage with you and takes any support you might offer. I'd encourage you again to explore your position with a family law solicitor, just to give yourself a good grounding on what you can and cannot do, in case things don't improve or you get stuck. You have done a good job of providing a safety net for your kids by stepping in when you needed to and ideally they will never find out that you had to. Fair play for keeping a cool head too.

x

pwurple

Wiggle, can you show me the offer of help there? I missed it. Saw that he offered criticism and snarky comments. Guff about make-up.

Step one is certainly to offer help or support. He should start there.. but you’re a few steps ahead.


Problem then though will be the follow up:

If they are struggling with money, nopity nope.
Short a bedroom, naw, he has none.
Spend some time with them, sorry, this weekend is my time with buddies and the 30 minute drive is too far.

LegacyUser

pwurple wrote: »

Wiggle, can you show me the offer of help there? I missed it. Saw that he offered criticism and snarky comments. Guff about make-up.

Step one is certainly to offer help or support. He should start there.. but you’re a few steps ahead.


Problem then though will be the follow up:

If they are struggling with money, nopity nope.
Short a bedroom, naw, he has none.
Spend some time with them, sorry, this weekend is my time with buddies and the 30 minute drive is too far.

Just want to address some of the sniping that's coming across here. I'm trying my very best here.

People seem to be of the opinion that I walked away from my kids. Nothing could be further from the truth. I stayed with her for years knowing I was destroying my very soul being with her because I knew that if I walked, I'd never get to see them again without protracted legal action. She says it would never have happened but I know her too well to know that's a lie. She left. I even helped her find the new house when she left before she got housed by the local authority. Why? Because I wanted to see my kids being looked after.

Money. Some have made comments about me not offering my redundancy money until I was pushed. A portion of it was already set aside for her, just her, no-one else to do as she needed with it. The kids are all getting full new wardrobes out of it. Their school books, uniforms and school contributions are all being paid out of it (I can hear the sarcastic "Well aren't you great" comments already). She's getting paid for that by the social anyway, so you know, keep em coming.

Short a bedroom/Lack of room: The house isn't mine and as much as my father would love to have my kids here, he's not well. His health is failing, rapidly and he's just not able to have them here on a permanent basis.

Can't be bothered seeing my kids: This one gets me most. There hasn't been a single week in the last 7 years since we split that I haven't seen my kids on at least one occasion in the week. I took them for an entire summer once when I was unemployed and all I was getting was my own social welfare. She was getting paid for them in her's on top of her part-time job and do you think I even asked for a penny of maintenance... Not even once. I didn't even get the children's allowance. Thankfully, I had a large tax return that year which took care of us through the 3 months. When I go out with my friends (stop the presses "Single father has good time with friends"), I go to see them that same day and treat them all, including the ex to a day in Supermacs/McDonalds/Whatever the case may be. The drive over is far more than 30 minutes btw. It's 30 MILES. Factor in traffic lights and the amount of small towns and villages on the way, it's nearly an hour. The fuel cost alone, to do that 3 - 4 times a week on top of the 2 trips I already make (I pick them up and drop them off without exception), is prohibitive. I'm already finding it tough to make ends meet with the meagre income I have. My contribution is perfectly fine by her btw and even at that, I pay, on top of my contribution, the kids mobile phone top-ups and I have often given her extra when she has asked for it and I have it spare.

Please, all I'm asking for is constructive advice which takes the state out of it (they WON'T be a burden on the state any more than they already are) and I have gotten some great advice on here.

We now have a plan in place for the short term. Once that's been actioned we can focus on the long term.

wiggle16

Stuck In A Bind wrote: »

So, thanks to everybody for their feedback. Some of it is really useful, some I'm taking with a pinch of salt to be honest.

Had a productive conversation with her earlier. They're all going to get the house in order over the next week and I'll go over one or 2 mornings during the week to clear out the collection and take it to recycling/landfill. I'm going to buy some paint so that the walls can be painted once they're cleaned and I'm also giving her some of my redundancy settlement to clear off one or 2 of those loans [...]

Post Number 24, over a day ago. You did miss it. He's putting his own money into her house when he doesn't even own one himself and paying off her loans with his own money. I don't know many people who would be this kind under the circumstances.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

And if the _parent who lives there_ can’t be bothered making sure this is done, why would they? It’s a rare teenager who is going to just take on the cooking and cleaning for 4 younger siblings.

I am honestly mind boggled at people giving this woman a pass cos she might be stressed and then expecting a 15 or 16 year old to take over from her, or the OP to add a 2 hour round trip onto his commute.

i think youre reading this advice incorrectly.

most everyone giving the OP advice accepts that the situation is what it is. it seems highly likely that the mother of his kids is in more than a rut here, and that a kick in the arse is not whats required.

theres plenty of teenagers helping around the house. a little each goes a long way. its good for them to do their share anyway. there is literally no harm in these approaches and plenty of good.

i dont think it sounds like anything other than a GP and further referral will help with the mother.

the OP cant control that, and the approach of threats or whatnot seems unlikely to work. so the advice moves to what will make the situation better.

nobody being let off. nobody being judged. the kids not being treated as slaves. just everyone pitching in a bit more to help the situation improve.

cant see where the big negative reaction to that is coming from tbh

up for anything

Stuck In A Bind wrote: »

Did you even read the post?

I'm doing everything in my power not to put them into foster care and will stop at nothing to ensure that doesn't happen.

Maybe it's time you went to court and sought full custody based on her negligence. I can't understand why you feel that you can't take them. Maybe you'll have to leave your dad fend for himself and give up the new job and go on Jobseekers Allowance and find a house near their current schools rather than saying you can't do it. I can't believe there's another father apart from my ex who would say something like "I'm doing everything in my power not to put them in to foster care". Why would they would have to go into foster care if there is another parent, you, ready and willing to take them? It's a no-brainer. If their mother can't look after them then you have to make sacrifices and take over, legally if necessary to ensure their welfare and safety.

lunamoon

up for anything wrote: »

Maybe it's time you went to court and sought full custody based on her negligence. I can't understand why you feel that you can't take them. Maybe you'll have to leave your dad fend for himself and give up the new job and go on Jobseekers Allowance and find a house near their current schools rather than saying you can't do it. I can't believe there's another father apart from my ex who would say something like "I'm doing everything in my power not to put them in to foster care". Why would they would have to go into foster care if there is another parent, you, ready and willing to take them? It's a no-brainer. If their mother can't look after them then you have to make sacrifices and take over, legally if necessary to ensure their welfare and safety.

Because buying a house/renting one is a walk in the park these days.

Give the OP a break. He's doing his best and actively looking for help.

up for anything

up for anything wrote: »

I can't believe there's another father apart from my ex who would say something like...

the key line in that response imo.

the OP isnt the ex of anyone here and isnt a totem for all men everywhere to take his lumps on their behalf.

PressRun

You need to be more hands on. If you want to actually make a change, you need to be there and offer some help. Come over a couple of mornings/evenings in the week and help them clean and cook and make sure they wash themselves. Get involved in their day to day lives. Simply contributing money is not meaningful child rearing.

lukesmom

Seriously you are advising him to ring tusla because a child has headlice and they eat ready meals? This does not classify as neglect. The poor woman sounds overwhelmed. 5 children is a lot to handle. Instead of trying to take the children. Why dont you clean up your childrens house with her every week. Give her a hand. But please for the love of good dont set Tusla on her. You will be opening a minefield of interrogation that is unnecessary from what you have told us. They have their basic needs met. Help her clean the house.

mg1982

lukesmom wrote: »

Seriously you are advising him to ring tusla because a child has headlice and they eat ready meals? This does not classify as neglect. The poor woman sounds overwhelmed. 5 children is a lot to handle. Instead of trying to take the children. Why dont you clean up your childrens house with her every week. Give her a hand. But please for the love of good dont set Tusla on her. You will be opening a minefield of interrogation that is unnecessary from what you have told us. They have their basic needs met. Help her clean the house.

TBH if you read the original post there basic needs are not been met.

Cash_Q

Stuck In A Bind wrote:

Please, all I'm asking for is constructive advice which takes the state out of it (they WON'T be a burden on the state any more than they already are) and I have gotten some great advice on here.

OP all I can say is well done for making such a reserved response. You have no need to defend yourself. Plenty of parents would have walked away. Plenty of parents living full time with their children are less involved. You sound like a great dad and a great ex. I believe your concerns are totally justified.

Unfortunately sniping and unhelpful criticism is one of the major downsides of Boards, people seem to forget they are communicating with a real person in relation to their real life.

Best of luck with moving forward.

lukesmom

Im not sure your aware what basic needs are? They have basic needs plus needs that are higher up the pyramid.

Their food needs are met
Their educational meeds are met
Their shelter needs are met
I suspect their love and belonging needs are met too just that their mother is frazzled

There's obviously a hygiene issue in the house. There is no need to involve a social worker at this stage. Trust me i know what im talking about when i say that tusla will assess the home and depending on the child protection worker (if they are new she might be in luck) but if they have been in the job for more than 24 months then they will go through the policies and procedures and hound your ex. Parenting courses. Jumping through hoops to get them off her back. Be very sure before you make this move before you open a can of worms that will take a huge amount of mental stress on her and further jeopardise her capability as a mother. Offer to hep. Get a cleaner for a few hours a fortnight. Make a chart for the kids to help out a reward system to take some off the stress of mum. But Tusla? Take my advice dont even go there unless there is serious abuse or chronic neglect. Headlice and a messy home do not fall into this catagory.

JustAThought

Cash_Q wrote: »

OP all I can say is well done for making such a reserved response. You have no need to defend yourself. Plenty of parents would have walked away. Plenty of parents living full time with their children are less involved. You sound like a great dad and a great ex. I believe your concerns are totally justified.

Unfortunately sniping and unhelpful criticism is one of the major downsides of Boards, people seem to forget they are communicating with a real person in relation to their real life.

Best of luck with moving forward.

Delusional - if this absolutely bare minimum is the standard expected for fathers to rear their 5 children and pay their way in society then God help us all. Offloading them and relying on council houses from taxpayers and working comitted fathers paying for their own children as well as his isnt exactly a fair or balanced model. He still keeps 75% of his salary for himself and has the majority of a redundency hidden away - here's my advice to the OP - reverse those figures and start paying a living amount to support your own 5 childrens needs. And start doing some actual work in the house for their needs - cooking, shopping,cleaning, 24/7 babysitting. They are your children after all. Why should other working families and fathers have to pay your way or pay in high taxes for social welfare support and state agencies such as Tulsa because you won't man up to your responsibilities. And stop with the larking around on nights out with your mates - your ex needs a break and your 5 children need minding and their house needs cleaning.

Cash_Q

JustAThought wrote:

. And stop with the larking around on nights out with your mates - your ex needs a break and your 5 children need minding and their house needs cleaning.

As a separated parent I believe he's doing great.

As for the nights out - OP said it's every few weeks. I feel that any parent who has their access/visitation every weekend has a raw deal. It's not always practical to have any shared custody midweek, but it's not fair for one parent to have every weekend off and get to socialise etc while the other gives up every single weekend. OP has explained that he still sees the kids in the daytime on such weekends anyway.

In families where both parents are together, it's pretty normal for one or both parents to do a bit of socialising at the weekend.

lukesmom

lukesmom wrote: »

Im not sure your aware what basic needs are? They have basic needs plus needs that are higher up the pyramid.

Their food needs are met
Their educational meeds are met
Their shelter needs are met
I suspect their love and belonging needs are met too just that their mother is frazzled

There's obviously a hygiene issue in the house. There is no need to involve a social worker at this stage. Trust me i know what im talking about when i say that tusla will assess the home and depending on the child protection worker (if they are new she might be in luck) but if they have been in the job for more than 24 months then they will go through the policies and procedures and hound your ex. Parenting courses. Jumping through hoops to get them off her back. Be very sure before you make this move before you open a can of worms that will take a huge amount of mental stress on her and further jeopardise her capability as a mother. Offer to hep. Get a cleaner for a few hours a fortnight. Make a chart for the kids to help out a reward system to take some off the stress of mum. But Tusla? Take my advice dont even go there unless there is serious abuse or chronic neglect. Headlice and a messy home do not fall into this catagory.

you seem to be under the impression that Tusla operate for the benefit of parents where concerns have been raised about the wellbeing of children

this seems to be quite the reverse of what most people would expect.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

.

youre well named on this topic

weve now all heard that one thought you just have. no need to keep repeating it imo

dudara

@JustAThought - please do not post in this thread again. You are failing to offer constructive, helpful advice to the OP.

dudara

Sardonicat

lukesmom wrote: »

Im not sure your aware what basic needs are? They have basic needs plus needs that are higher up the pyramid.

Their food needs are met
Their educational meeds are met
Their shelter needs are met
I suspect their love and belonging needs are met too just that their mother is frazzled

There's obviously a hygiene issue in the house. There is no need to involve a social worker at this stage. Trust me i know what im talking about when i say that tusla will assess the home and depending on the child protection worker (if they are new she might be in luck) but if they have been in the job for more than 24 months then they will go through the policies and procedures and hound your ex. Parenting courses. Jumping through hoops to get them off her back. Be very sure before you make this move before you open a can of worms that will take a huge amount of mental stress on her and further jeopardise her capability as a mother. Offer to hep. Get a cleaner for a few hours a fortnight. Make a chart for the kids to help out a reward system to take some off the stress of mum. But Tusla? Take my advice dont even go there unless there is serious abuse or chronic neglect. Headlice and a messy home do not fall into this catagory.

Their shelter needs are not being met. They are living in the midst of rubbish. Would you live like that? Expect your children to?

Headlice is no biggie. Most kids will catch them at some point. Not bothering your arse to treat them is neglect. Pure and simple.

How do you know she's frazzled? How do you know she's not doing it deliberately?

Here's a little anecdote to illustrate deliberate neglect for you:
Once I tried to load the washing machine and my mother picked up a carving knife and threatened to stab herself in the heart if I didn't stop what I was doing. That's just ONE example. And everyone thought my mum was tired, overwhelmed and had lazy kids and husband who wouldn't help. She told people I was lazy and dirty and refused to wash. She blamed me. Like this woman blames her kids . A GIANT RED FlAG

If you don't know how to wash your kids or throw rubbish out you should be doing parenting courses and jumping through hoops to prove you can change and you're not deliberately neglecting your kids.

Annasopra

lukesmom wrote: »

Seriously you are advising him to ring tusla because a child has headlice and they eat ready meals? This does not classify as neglect. The poor woman sounds overwhelmed. 5 children is a lot to handle. Instead of trying to take the children. Why dont you clean up your childrens house with her every week. Give her a hand. But please for the love of good dont set Tusla on her. You will be opening a minefield of interrogation that is unnecessary from what you have told us. They have their basic needs met. Help her clean the house.

Eh sorry no it does classify as neglect. The children have poor hygiene and cleanliness, the living conditions of the children are unhygienic and unsafe with rubbish mounting up, the mother is behaving irrationally and blaming the children, sometimes the food provided to the children is inadequate, the children are behaving in a blameful manner towards their father.

These are all textbook indicators of neglect. They are all listed in child protection handbooks as indicators.