Connoly Station / Busaras post-Hard Brexit

XPS_Zero

I was reading an interview with the new Brexit secretary and I was laughing my ass off at his refusal to reveal any plans for a 'crash out' when I realized our govt probably does not have any plans either.


For those who are not into this kind of political hijinx it's simple: the UK wanted a ridiculous deal where they stay in just the bits of the EU they like but with no obligations or payments and we said no...there was 2 years of this. So it looks as if instead of leaving with a transition period and the basis of a future relationship ready to be negotiated during said transition they will 'fall out' of the EU in March next year. They need to have a deal signed within 13 weeks by October to permit ratification by all member states and the European parliament and the talks have basically collapsed.

All the common sense options that might get us out of this are blocked because of local UK politics which they can't even sort out with another election or referendum again for political reasons.




So it looks like a hard brexit. Because of the 'common travel area' UK and Irish citizens traveling back and forth would not need visas (assuming they don't petulantly throw this overboard at the checkout after we refuse to give them their sweets, in an ultranationalist tantrum as everything breaks down which they have already threatened to do). But Connoly station and Busaras would now have to enforce the UK/EU border, it would mean immigration checks for non-UK/IRL citizens, customs checks etc


Has anyone heard of any preparations for this eventuality? Because I've heard bupkis..nothing. I know they do immigration checks at BusAras the odd time by checking passports but this would require new barriers, a customs and immigration desk, new staff etc We don't even have a single customs and immigration body it's split to three different agencies (immigration by INIS, customs by revenue, and then the GNIB) so they'd all need desk space and staff. Before anyone suggests just waving people through we can't do that, we have to enforce the border.




BusAras is barely adequate as a general bus station as it is, I don't see where they'd have space for customs and immigration staff unless they're literally going to just stand around and meet each bus at the bottom of the stairs. This is before getting into any delays on the roads if physical checkpoints are set up as they were before. Busses could be waved through if they have a sticker on the front or something, but what if the roads backlogged with car traffic? How far do those bus lanes go? :P



Anyone heard of any plans for this? or even suggestions/thoughts? Everyone until now has just been assuming something would work out.

GerardKeating

XPS_Zero wrote: »

But Connoly station and Busaras would now have to enforce the UK/EU border, it would mean immigration checks for non-UK/IRL citizens, customs checks etc

Since the CTA only applies UK/IRL Citizens, the requirement for immigration checks on cross-border travellers has always existed. Many no-EU nationals requir visas to enter both states.

For example a Filipino national legally resident in RoI requires a Visa to go to the Titantic Quarter in Belfast, and a reentry Visa to reenter the Republic.

Under His Eye

I would imagine that any customs checks would be done at the border, certainly not Bus Áras or Connolly.

Cookie_Monster

Under His Eye wrote: »

I would imagine that any customs checks would be done at the border, certainly not Bus Áras or Connolly.

This, will be at the ferry terminals or at the actual NI border. Just like on the continent, checks are done at actual borders, not at the terminals.

Hopefully one plus of all this Brexit mess will be Ireland abandoning the CTA and joining Shengen, one can only hope.

Del2005

Nothing being done apart from hiring an additional 1000 people for customs and agriculture.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-customs-veterinary-brexit-4135182-Jul2018/

prinzeugen

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This, will be at the ferry terminals. Just like on the continent, checks are done at actual borders, not at the terminals.

Hopefully one plus of all this Brexit mess will be Ireland abandoning the CTA and joining Shengen, one can only hope.

Ireland joining Shengan is inevitable. If it happens however it will kill the Good Friday agreement and it will be the republics fault for rolling over to the EU masters demands.

And the CTA pre dates any European thing so will still be in effect post Britex unless the Irish Government changes its policy.

Cookie_Monster

prinzeugen wrote: »

If it happens however it will kill the Good Friday agreement and it will be the republics fault for rolling over to the EU masters demands.

Brexit has already ensured the UK will break it first, there is no other legal possibility than a border up north now.

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This, will be at the ferry terminals or at the actual NI border. Just like on the continent, checks are done at actual borders, not at the terminals

Eurostar border checks are performed at the terminals. You can get a train direct from London to Amsterdam but not the other way round - London's terminal has a board control area, Amsterdam's does not.

Stephen15

There may be checks in Connolly but I can't see there being any checks in Busaras other than un-official passport by BE or Translink employees similar to most airlines. Buses will be checked at the border like all other motor vehicles. Also I can't it being viable to put a border check in the likes of Dundalk and Drogheda for the Enterprise so the first stop would have likely have to be Newry.

Riskymove

markpb wrote: »

Eurostar border checks are performed at the terminals. You can get a train direct from London to Amsterdam but not the other way round - London's terminal has a board control area, Amsterdam's does not.

that was part of the agreement to the tunnel in the first place between UK and France

A special agreement, known as the Treaty of Le Touquet, currently allows for both countries’ passport checks to take place as passengers board the train – meaning when they arrive they can walk straight out of the station without waiting.

otherwise checks are generally done at border crossings or at ferry terminals

goingnowhere

Checks will be at Dundalk/Newry if the circumstances require such in the future.

Depending on the circumstances it might be possible to check on the train while in motion otherwise it would require a sterile area to check the train. Its not uncommon globally to do this kind of thing.

Road traffic is a different ball game entirely

Jamie2k9

UK have no intention of putting a border and the EU have said they will not impose a border but the latter appears to have been conveniently lost among the media and political parties here to pressure the UK into a soft Brexit. There will only be a border if Irish Goverment put one there to please the EU if they row back on the promise.

People says its up to the UK to find a solution, reality is its up to our Goverment and the EU to sort the problem out which will likely just be enhanced check's on goods from Ireland. Good Friday Agreement and violence is just scare mongering and people will see through it.

Losty Dublin

Stephen15 wrote: »

There may be checks in Connolly but I can't see there being any checks in Busaras other than un-official passport by BE or Translink employees similar to most airlines. Buses will be checked at the border like all other motor vehicles. Also I can't it being viable to put a border check in the likes of Dundalk and Drogheda for the Enterprise so the first stop would have likely have to be Newry.

One of the functions of the waiting room at Connolly is that it can be used to enable customs and border inspections.

Under His Eye

It will never be used for such a purpose.

Stephen15

Losty Dublin wrote: »

One of the functions of the waiting room at Connolly is that it can be used to enable customs and border inspections.

Can this be done in Drogheda and Dundalk aswell. This would mean that passengers for Drogheda and Dundalk would have to use the commuter trains and not the Enterprise as they are not crossing the border into the UK or would there be a separate carriage for passengers going between those places perhaps.

Lord Glentoran

prinzeugen wrote: »

Ireland joining Shengan is inevitable. If it happens however it will kill the Good Friday agreement and it will be the republics fault for rolling over to the EU masters demands.

And the CTA pre dates any European thing so will still be in effect post Britex unless the Irish Government changes its policy.

No it isn’t. If you think those of us near the border will meekly flash our passports at approved crossings then you have zero understanding of the bigger picture.

bigar

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There will only be a border if Irish Goverment put one there to please the EU if they row back on the promise.

The border is not just one between Ireland and the UK. It is also one between the EU and a third country, the same as between Poland and Ukraine for instance. In order to prevent smuggling of goods from the UK, which can then freely be distributed in the rest of the EU, border checks will be needed.
This can either be hard border checks or the fairy tail version the UK is believing in.

Jamie2k9

bigar wrote: »

The border is not just one between Ireland and the UK. It is also one between the EU and a third country, the same as between Poland and Ukraine for instance. In order to prevent smuggling of goods from the UK, which can then freely be distributed in the rest of the EU, border checks will be needed.
This can either be hard border checks or the fairy tail version the UK is believing in.

I'm well aware of the difference. It still doesn't change the fact that Jean-Claude Juncker stated they would not impose a border in the event of a no deal nor can they force the UK to. Perhaps he should return and correct the Dáil record?

The reality is goods from Ireland will be subject to spot checks on the mainland. We will see how "committed" the EU are to the GFA in due course because the Uk are more committed than the EU as things stand particularly on the border issue.

In theory its up to the EU and not the UK to find a solution to the border because its the EU who need it not the UK...

ohnonotgmail

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm well aware of the difference. It still doesn't change the fact that Jean-Claude Juncker stated they would not impose a border in the event of a no deal nor can they force the UK to. Perhaps he should return and correct the Dáil record?

The reality is goods from Ireland will be subject to spot checks on the mainland. We will see how "committed" the EU are to the GFA in due course because the Uk are more committed than the EU as things stand particularly on the border issue.

In theory its up to the EU and not the UK to find a solution to the border because its the EU who need it not the UK...

Remind us again who set all this in motion and spent nearly two years doing SFA about a problem they created?

Jamie2k9

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Remind us again who set all this in motion and spent nearly two years doing SFA about a problem they created?

Relevance, the UK are not obliged to provide a border for the EU. The EU have been busy trying to overturn democracy, its not Ireland where if we reject something we vote again until EU gets the right answer.

Your right, EU have not done a thing for the past 2 years to protect there new external border!

ohnonotgmail

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Relevance, the UK are not obliged to provide a border for the EU. The EU have been busy trying to overturn democracy, its not Ireland where if we reject something we vote again until EU gets the right answer.

Your right, EU have not done a thing for the past 2 years to protect there new external border!

It is like listening to Rees-Mogg or Johnson. Painful.

Jamie2k9

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is like listening to Rees-Mogg or Johnson. Painful.

It may be painful you know Its true.

fly_agaric

prinzeugen wrote: »

Ireland joining Shengan is inevitable. If it happens however it will kill the Good Friday agreement and it will be the republics fault for rolling over to the EU masters demands.

And the CTA pre dates any European thing so will still be in effect post Britex unless the Irish Government changes its policy.

I don't see how it is our fault - there's really nothing we can do here + all Ireland's options are bad (if there is a no-deal crash out brexit).

The UK has created this situation with their daft "take back control" referendum.

Unfortunately Ireland is not a superpower like the UK, fully able to create its own agency (or at least I assume that is the head brexiteers' [Boris, Rees-Mogg etc] perception of their country). We don't even have the comfort of a delusion of being free to do whatever we like in our own interest.

If things go badly (UK crash out of EU with no agreement at all) we can (assuming UK does the same, like many brexiteers suggest) tell EU to go to hell & not impose any new border controls.

After a time, UK will naturally change its laws away from EU standards, find new sources of imports and new trade relationships etc (otherwise what was point of Brexit for people in UK who have squealed for it for so long).
We will find our exports, people leaving the country etc will gradually be restricted by the rest of the EU because of our effective "open borders" relationship with an external state. We will be pulled inexorably back toward the UKs economic orbit as a result (60 odd million population, trillion pound economy + barriers are starting to go up with the other European countries).

We have little freedom here but the obvious lesser evil seems to be to stick with the EU (even if it means putting in some border controls) rather than opt for the tender mercies of a very angry + wounded UK run by the likes of Boris or Mogg.

ohnonotgmail

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It may be painful you know Its true.

I meant reading your posts was painful.

Jamie2k9

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I meant reading your posts was painful.

But you still agree my point was right regardless how painful it was to read!

ohnonotgmail

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

But you still agree my point was right regardless how painful it was to read!

Oh no your post was complete bunkum typical of the most rabid of brexiteers. I thought that was obvious.

Del2005

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm well aware of the difference. It still doesn't change the fact that Jean-Claude Juncker stated they would not impose a border in the event of a no deal nor can they force the UK to. Perhaps he should return and correct the Dáil record?

The reality is goods from Ireland will be subject to spot checks on the mainland. We will see how "committed" the EU are to the GFA in due course because the Uk are more committed than the EU as things stand particularly on the border issue.

In theory its up to the EU and not the UK to find a solution to the border because its the EU who need it not the UK...

The UK want to keep the bloody foreigners out so they'll need a border to do that.

They also have plans to drop all food safety standards if their border checks take too long, so if they don't want a border why are they planning for delays on their side?

Stephen15

Del2005 wrote: »

They also have plans to drop all food safety standards if their border checks take too long, so if they don't want a border why are they planning for delays on their side?

So they can die of salmonella and E coli

PeadarCo

Jamie2k9 wrote:

In theory its up to the EU and not the UK to find a solution to the border because its the EU who need it not the UK...

If the UK does not enforce the border it will run into 2 problems. One under WTO terms it will have to offer the same to anyone ie the UK won't be allowed inspect goods from other countries. Two if it decides to ignore the WTO when it tries to do any trade deal with another country why can't we trade on the same terms as the EU ie an open border situation.

From a transport point of view I don't see a hard border being a problem in and off itself from a pure operational stand point . There are loads of examples to look at how best to go about it. The problem will the political dimension and that until Brexit happens and what the nature of the deal(if there is one) between the EU and UK is decided what changes will be required won't be known.

Jamie2k9

Del2005 wrote: »

The UK want to keep the bloody foreigners out so they'll need a border to do that.

They also have plans to drop all food safety standards if their border checks take too long, so if they don't want a border why are they planning for delays on their side?

API will solve who stays and don't return home.

All of there plans or lack of them are on the assumption of finding a solution, if the EU does not agree a compromise then they are free to do what they like and force the EU into some big decisions about the border. EU will have to give some movement on Ireland including goods from ROI after Brexit because the majority will still need to travel via the UK.

United 27 are showing cracks already, don't expect a united front if the only problem come next March is the Irish border. European Elections just around the corner and a no deal will shape a new EU parliament.

Losty Dublin

Stephen15 wrote: »

Can this be done in Drogheda and Dundalk aswell. This would mean that passengers for Drogheda and Dundalk would have to use the commuter trains and not the Enterprise as they are not crossing the border into the UK or would there be a separate carriage for passengers going between those places perhaps.

In olden days checks were done at the first stop either side of the border, they being the point of entry. In theory this should still be the case but given that nobody knows what the hell is happening about any border it follows that CIE and NIR won't know either.

Del2005

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

API will solve who stays and don't return home.

All of there plans or lack of them are on the assumption of finding a solution, if the EU does not agree a compromise then they are free to do what they like and force the EU into some big decisions about the border. EU will have to give some movement on Ireland including goods from ROI after Brexit because the majority will still need to travel via the UK.

United 27 are showing cracks already, don't expect a united front if the only problem come next March is the Irish border. European Elections just around the corner and a no deal will shape a new EU parliament.

Whats API and how will that stopping someone walking from Ireland to Northern Ireland? Don't forget that there will be no checks between NI and the UK so the forgieners will be able to sneak in by the back door.

Why does the EU need a compromise? It's not picking up its ball and going home in a huff

KevRossi

Stephen15 wrote: »

Can this be done in Drogheda and Dundalk aswell. This would mean that passengers for Drogheda and Dundalk would have to use the commuter trains and not the Enterprise as they are not crossing the border into the UK or would there be a separate carriage for passengers going between those places perhaps.

Checks can be done on the train between Dundalk and Newry. Standard practice on international trains. Might lead to the odd delay, but that would be the most efficient way.

Going from Germany to France, the French police used to get on in Karlsruhe and get off in Strasbourg and vice versa.

The same could be done here.

Lord Glentoran

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

bigar wrote: »

The border is not just one between Ireland and the UK. It is also one between the EU and a third country, the same as between Poland and Ukraine for instance. In order to prevent smuggling of goods from the UK, which can then freely be distributed in the rest of the EU, border checks will be needed.
This can either be hard border checks or the fairy tail version the UK is believing in.

I'm well aware of the difference. It still doesn't change the fact that Jean-Claude Juncker stated they would not impose a border in the event of a no deal nor can they force the UK to. Perhaps he should return and correct the Dáil record?

The reality is goods from Ireland will be subject to spot checks on the mainland. We will see how "committed" the EU are to the GFA in due course because the Uk are more committed than the EU as things stand particularly on the border issue.

In theory its up to the EU and not the UK to find a solution to the border because its the EU who need it not the UK...

Yeah. Right. I live on the border and we're all watching up here to see exactly who is bulls@itting who.

MJohnston

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Yeah. Right. I live on the border and we're all watching up here to see exactly who is bulls@itting who.

Hint: it's the Tories who are pushing for a no-deal Brexit while they set up massive trust funds in European countries.

Marcusm

bigar wrote: »

The border is not just one between Ireland and the UK. It is also one between the EU and a third country, the same as between Poland and Ukraine for instance. In order to prevent smuggling of goods from the UK, which can then freely be distributed in the rest of the EU, border checks will be needed.
This can either be hard border checks or the fairy tail version the UK is believing in.

Distribution to the rest of the EU would require the goods to depart Ireland. More effective (and cheaper) checks could be effected at ports than border crossings. Likewise for goods transiting NI to GB (politically less acceptable). The fact is that there is limited capacity on both sides and the checks should focus on illicit material (drugs etc).

Del2005

Marcusm wrote: »

Distribution to the rest of the EU would require the goods to depart Ireland. More effective (and cheaper) checks could be effected at ports than border crossings. Likewise for goods transiting NI to GB (politically less acceptable). The fact is that there is limited capacity on both sides and the checks should focus on illicit material (drugs etc).

Just like the UK won't agree to the logical border in the Irish Sea, which makes perfect sense as NI has so many differences to the UK, why should the EU agree to a sea border when we have no differences between us and the EU?

Jamie2k9

As I stated it was something that had to happen:

The European Union's chief Brexit negotiator has signalled a willingness to be flexible in negotiations around the border on the island of Ireland.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0802/982658-brexit/