Dept considering coverting Primary teachers into secondary teachers

judeboy101

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-teachers-may-be-converted-for-second-level-roles-1.3573120?mode=amp

JustAThought

judeboy101 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-teachers-may-be-converted-for-second-level-roles-1.3573120?mode=amp

They'd be better off looking at giving them the full time parity parment contracts they are craving instead of the short term underpaid no security nonsense they are doing now. Why anyone would want to work under those terms for the govenment is utterly beyond me. And 'civil servants' should know better. As for primary school teachers - they mihht get a few more qualified graduates if their jobs were more reliable to had living wages -all year round - that a lerson could rwnt a house or get a loan with - not part time hours and salaries at forced below market rates for newcomers.

Geuze

If there will be surplus primary teachers, then the PT ratio can be cut.

30 in a primary class is too much.

r93kaey5p2izun

I personally know over a dozen teachers who are dual qualified so I'd say there's many more like them. But all of them did second level first then left for primary due to the crap they had to put up with. Not one of them would consider going back. I sincerely doubt this would be a popular option for primary teachers.

Nellieelephant

Tristen Wailing Salt wrote: »

I personally know over a dozen teachers who are dual qualified so I'd say there's many more like them. But all of them did second level first then left for primary due to the crap they had to put up with. Not one of them would consider going back. I sincerely doubt this would be a popular option for primary teachers.

I agree - I know lots of secondary teachers that retrained to primary but none the other way around. Secondary is a different pressure cooker entirely. Just pay all teachers fairly -ffs, that will solve the teacher supply issue. What happened to the homemakers scheme idea? What will they think of next- unbelievable- Show us the money!!

Postgrad10

I'd say they are hoping that this would counteract the lack of Irish teachers at secondary. Since primary teachers already need to have Irish.

evolving_doors

It just shows how pointless the Teaching Council is. If you want your degree recognised you've to jump through hoops, do this and that module.... then maybe they'll consider it.
If you've the cupla focal then in ya go.

It just goes to show who's in charge of the media.
Few days ago 'there's going to be a surplus of primary teachers' blurb.
Well you'll never guess what... today.. 'primary teachers can move into secondary'.
What a coincidence.

Sir123

I thought the retraining of homemakers was the final straw but blimey, this is many steps further.

If they just recognised Equal Pay for Equal work and paid us appropriate then we wouldn't have this issue.

Primary school class sizes should be reduced, hence no surplus teachers. Instead government want to redeploy these teachers into areas of high subject shortages such as Irish and modern languages. Shocking 🀔

This is gas stuff lads and it's not even August yet😂

Noveight

Sounds like they'll try another 99 half baked, long-shot ideas before equal pay is even considered.

Not to mention decent contracts.

TheDriver

Postgrad10 wrote: »

I'd say they are hoping that this would counteract the lack of Irish teachers at secondary. Since primary teachers already need to have Irish.

Unfortunately primary teachers having Irish and being able to teach second level Irish isn't a total overlap

Postgrad10

TheDriver wrote: »

Unfortunately primary teachers having Irish and being able to teach second level Irish isn't a total overlap

Did I say otherwise? Completely different training involved.

Snapgal

It's a disgrace that the minister of education of our country come up with such an idiotic idea. As was mentioned many times the problem lies in the lack of proper full time contracts, low hours, unstable work and pay inequality. I don't blame young teachers to leave the country - if I were younger I would be gone too. For past few years since relocating closer to home I have been in different schools on part time contracts and found it hard to get those contracts even though I teach Irish plus a foreign language, have 15 years experience, acted an both an oral and written examiner for 10 years plus lots of extra curricular experience.Lots of other Irish teachers I know are in same boat - plenty of subbing or low hour contracts in Irish where I live hence why they can't get Irish teachers to take the scraps from the table.

evolving_doors

It's just the silly season really.
They come out with this rubbish every July/August.
In last 2 weeks we've had.

Quiet rooms.
Wellness programs
Too many primary teachers.
Primary teachers can jump over to secondary.

Stay tuned

TheDriver

evolving_doors wrote: »

It's just the silly season really.
They come out with this rubbish every July/August.
In last 2 weeks we've had.

Quiet rooms.
Wellness programs
Too many primary teachers.
Primary teachers can jump over to secondary.

Stay tuned

We have yet to have the annual "All Principals are out to get you" though...........

mtoutlemonde

TheDriver wrote: »

We have yet to have the annual "All Principals are out to get you" though...........

That's been done to death by the Voice for Teachers gang

TheDriver

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

That's been done to death by the Voice for Teachers gang

Now that's a discussion I've been dying to have. It's dreadful that every question is anonymous yet you must have your name on a reply. Some things on there are just bizarre.

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

We have yet to have the annual "All Principals are out to get you" though...........

But they are, in fairness

byhookorbycrook

As a primary teacher with Irish to an honors degree level, I say this would be a disaster. I used to work in the Colaistí Samhraidh and take the top[ group, which was ok, as they were interested on the whole to improve. I couldn't imagine trying to teach a whole class of dis-interested students with only a rudimentary command of Irish at best.

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a primary teacher with Irish to an honors degree level, I say this would be a disaster. I used to work in the Colaistí Samhraidh and take the top[ group, which was ok, as they were interested on the whole to improve. I couldn't imagine trying to teach a whole class of dis-interested students with only a rudimentary command of Irish at best.

Not even for the June Holidays?

Lapis Luzali

Wouldnt it not be more realistic to allow trained further ed teachers teach at second level? Or atleast introduce a conversion course or allow them onto the second year of a PME. Trained further ed teachers have their undergraduate degree and a teacher training qualification - most have a masters on top of that in their subject, theyve also got experience working with teenagers and young people through Youthreach and other education services, many of them have experience in special needs education and tutoring suuport. Why is that not being considered? especially since secondary teachers can teach in further ed but not the other way around.

Ideally theyd pay teachers fairly but if theyre talking about converting teachers to teach in second level wouldnt it be better to convert further ed teachers?

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

It just goes to show who's in charge of the media.
Few days ago 'there's going to be a surplus of primary teachers' blurb.
Well you'll never guess what... today.. 'primary teachers can move into secondary'.
What a coincidence.

So, who controls the media? The government?

People can, by all means, criticise various plans, like this one with merit, but going on about conspiracy theories about media control does not make it true and invalidates the point.

RealJohn

Postgrad10 wrote: »

I'd say they are hoping that this would counteract the lack of Irish teachers at secondary. Since primary teachers already need to have Irish.

That’s only true in theory. In practice, a lot of them only have the bare minimum required for primary teaching to start with, which is a low bar anyway, and go downhill from there once qualified. Many primary teachers are completely unsuitable to teach secondary Irish and the ones who aren’t are probably getting jobs in primary schools.

maynooth_rules

Postgrad10 wrote: »

I'd say they are hoping that this would counteract the lack of Irish teachers at secondary. Since primary teachers already need to have Irish.

Someone will have to have the balls to make the difficult decision, and drop the compulsory element of Irish after JC. I certainly believe it will help the language and cause less resentment amongst many pupils who feel they are forced to do Irish despite not liking it

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

So, who controls the media? The government?

People can, by all means, criticise various plans, like this one with merit, but going on about conspiracy theories about media control does not make it true and invalidates the point.

Journalists often become political advisors.
John Walsh being the most notable education journalist turned advisor.

Other journalists turning political advisor ...
Francis Fitzgibbon
Chris Donohue
Sean Duignan
Nick Miller
Mark Costigan
Sarah Meade
Jim McGrath

So it's not unusual.

Also... where does their information come from?
They get it .... they repeat it.

Remember the last Irish Times education correspondent who was caught out spouting pure nonsense.

RealJohn

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Someone will have to have the balls to make the difficult decision, and drop the compulsory element of Irish after JC. I certainly believe it will help the language and cause less resentment amongst many pupils who feel they are forced to do Irish despite not liking it

Not the place for this debate but dropping compulsory Irish would damage the language hugely because it would damage the Gaeltachts, who get a much needed income boost during the summer, catering for secondary school students who want to improve their Irish.

Obviously, in the long run, we would hope that they’ll lose that anyway because the level of Irish in the country will be high enough that it’s not needed but in the short term, it would accelerate the decline of our language and undo all of the progress that has been made and more.

I think most people agree that there’s a need to reform the approach to our language in schools but making it optional at any level would be massively damaging.

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

Journalists often become political advisors.

And? The largest profession represented in the Dail are teachers, does that mean the country is controlled by teachers?

Remember the last Irish Times education correspondent who was caught out spouting pure nonsense.

Journalists spouting nonsense is not new, nor will it get old.

By the mere fact you cannot substantiate your claim on 'whos in charge of the media' and your weak attempt to double down on it, really shows up the lack of an argument here.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

And? The largest profession represented in the Dail are teachers, does that mean the country is controlled by teachers?

Do you have a source for that?
BTW I'm not talking about someone who registered to be a teacher in the 1970's or 1980's then left. I'm talking about the profession represented in the dail who you claim "are" teachers.

markodaly wrote: »

Journalists spouting nonsense is not new, nor will it get old.

A journalist spouting nonsense is one thing... but a journalist merely reprinting something from a govt. press office without interrogation is another.

Do you think they interrogated the topic well?
Namely the 4 articles I mentioned

By the mere fact you cannot substantiate your claim on 'whos in charge of the media' and your weak attempt to double down on it, really shows up the lack of an argument here.

If it's merely a rehash of a press statement then why aren't they questioning it or interrogating the issues?

keoclassic

RealJohn wrote: »

Not the place for this debate but dropping compulsory Irish would damage the language hugely because it would damage the Gaeltachts, who get a much needed income boost during the summer, catering for secondary school students who want to improve their Irish.

Obviously, in the long run, we would hope that they’ll lose that anyway because the level of Irish in the country will be high enough that it’s not needed but in the short term, it would accelerate the decline of our language and undo all of the progress that has been made and more.

I think most people agree that there’s a need to reform the approach to our language in schools but making it optional at any level would be massively damaging.

Forcing students to sit an exam in a subject that they greatly dislike is only hindering them in the points race.Having it as compulsory for all teaching courses in the state is Fu@cking criminal. I myself was not a lingual student and dropped all languages simply because i felt that they would serve me poorly in a formal exam setting, and I was right.That said I now speak decent Spanish, but that was learned though necessity rather than choice The only reason, and I stress the only reason I did Irish, was that I required it for entry into 3rd level.Why do you think it is the responsibility of a small minority that Irish should be compulsory for all ?..................by the way I'm not interested in being able to converse in my national tongue.




××× this is going a bit off-topic with the Irish question, although admittedly it is a factor in teacher shortages... but if its going to end in a subject-off then its going nowhere.
Let's face it, they're not going to reduce the subject in any way;
1. Political suicide for any minister/party.
2. You'ld have to redeploy hundreds of teachers to.... other schools ... somewhere.
Or maybe suggest a solution as to what to do with the teachers if it were demoted from being core.
But take it to PM, or feel free to start a new thread if it's about the merits or demerits of the subject over other subjects.xxx
Mod

keoclassic

keoclassic wrote: »

Forcing students to sit an exam in a subject that they greatly dislike is only hindering them in the points race.Having it as compulsory for all teaching courses in the state is Fu@cking criminal. I myself was not a lingual student and dropped all languages simply because i felt that they would serve me poorly in a formal exam setting, and I was right.That said I now speak decent Spanish, but that was learned though necessity rather than choice The only reason, and I stress the only reason I did Irish, was that I required it for entry into 3rd level.Why do you think it is the responsibility of a small minority that Irish should be compulsory for all ?..................by the way I'm not interested in being able to converse in my national tongue.

××× this is going a bit off-topic with the Irish question, although admittedly it is a factor in teacher shortages... but if its going to end in a subject-off then its going nowhere.
Let's face it, they're not going to reduce the subject in any way;
1. Political suicide for any minister/party.
2. You'ld have to redeploy hundreds of teachers to.... other schools ... somewhere.
Or maybe suggest a solution as to what to do with the teachers if it were demoted from being core.
But take it to PM, or feel free to start a new thread if it's about the merits or demerits of the subject over other subjects.xxx
Mod[/quote]

That's one arrogant post right there Mod.

evolving_doors

keoclassic wrote: »

That's one arrogant post right there Mod.

Well ok then, keeping to the issue, what exactly are you suggesting to do by taking Irish away from core. How would it sort out teacher shortages?

keoclassic

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well ok then, keeping to the issue, what exactly are you suggesting to do by taking Irish away from core. How would it sort out teacher shortages?

Education in its entirety at second level should always revolve around what's best for the student........not what's best for teachers. The mod who posted that reply is solely focused on the current Irish teachers and what's good for them....not what's good for the majority of students. It would be hugely interesting to see how many pupils would take Irish if it were made optional, saying that it will never happen is a bit foolhardy.But the unions would not allow it because like you said, what would we do with all our Irish teachers? in response to your question, if Irish was phased out gradually at a reasonable rate to the point of being optional,then excess teachers of could focus on their second subject......the same way that a lot of optional teachers do.