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St. Patrick's Principal resigns. See mod warning post #61
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23-07-2018 10:34am#1https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-resigns-from-greystones-school-over-admissions-row-1.3573122
With the only two protestant primary schools in the Greystones/Delgany area under the management of the Church of Ireland, this is an issue causing much concern in the other protestant denominations in the area - They are seeing families who have traditionally been members of their churches forced to move, or at least to regularly turn up, at CoI services in order to get their kids into the school - hardly a Christian approach to be coercing people to attend!
https://www.greystonesguide.ie/st-patricks-ns-principal-forced-to-resign/
This is an issue with Templecarraig too..
Mod warning added hereHi All, I have removed personal names from a lot of the posts as the individuals concerned are not on here to defend themselves and may not appreciate some of the comments and/or allegations made about them.
I understand that some of them have been named in the linked articles and thus could be considered public domain but It would be fairer to all to just refer to them by their title/role in the school (ex-principal, ex-secretary, rector, etc). It's also important that unsubstantiated allegations about people are not thrown about in here (for example the comments about the youth worker), remember this is a public forum.
I apologise if the <SNIP>s everywhere look a bit odd, but it was that or delete the thread which would have been a shame1
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No religious organisation should have any part in managing our schools.0
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karma_coma wrote: »No religious organisation should have any part in managing our schools.
What reason have you for this outlandish statement?0 -
tennisplayer wrote: »What reason have you for this outlandish statement?
There is probably lots of reasons to be fair. We are increasingly moving towards a secular state and faith formation if desired could be at home or in Sunday schools.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Those in minority faiths are still more than happy to have their children attend a school with that ethos. These sorts of comments tend to come from Catholics who have had a bad experience as a child in Catholic schools0
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Those in minority faiths are still more than happy to have their children attend a school with that ethos. These sorts of comments tend to come from Catholics who have had a bad experience as a child in Catholic schools
So we should have Catholic schools for the Catholics, and Protestant schools for the Protestants, and Islamic schools for the Muslims, and Jewish schools for the Jewish kids, and Mormon schools for the Mormon kids, and Scientologist schools for the Scientologist kids...
Don't worry! Children who aren't part of that religion are allowed attend! (if there is space left!) As long as they sit at the back of the class quietly while the other kids are taught about how Brahma creates the universe. And maybe join in on the singing and colouring religious pictures - just so they don't feel left out, you know?
That's just the way it has to be, there is literally no alternative.0 -
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »There is probably lots of reasons to be fair. We are increasingly moving towards a secular state and faith formation if desired could be at home or in Sunday schools.
Exactly. The tide is turning in our society. Here's an example of this change from the top of government: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/03c8a114-9059-11e8-8c1a-b63727488402
Secular schools are inclusive, fair and don't discriminate. I'd love to hear opinions from those that think the status quo is not discriminating, exclusive and frankly sectarian.0 -
karma_coma wrote: »Secular schools are inclusive, fair and don't discriminate. I'd love to hear opinions from those that think the status quo is not discriminating, exclusive and frankly sectarian.
There are 2 separate issues. Mainstream Roman Catholic based education and minority faith based education. Each of them are treated differently for valid reasons which I’m happy to explain if needed.
Up to recently, St Patrick’s National School had a very open policy of inclusivity, fairness and non discrimination.
I’m now 44 years of age and even back then in those slightly more “sectarian” days, nearly half of our class was non CoI.
That policy remained in place for decades up until very recently when the Church took a turn in direction.
It is precisely because of the departure from that policy of inclusiveness that the school has now lost a fanstastic secretary who was there for many many years, they also lost an incredibly talented vice head, who was, as it happens and not that it matters, Roman Catholic, and now they’ve lost a hugely experienced, talented and respected principal <SNIP>
None of these people wanted to leave. They’ve all been there many years. <SNIP>. They didn’t leave because they wanted to. They left because they had no choice. They were pushed out because they disagreed with the sectarian nature of the new admission policy which the school has been adopting by stealth.
They are abusing the rules granted to minority faith schools by reducing the school size so they only have to take in children of a CoI background. Even the minister for education has said it’s absolutely unprecedented for a school to turn down an extra teacher which is exactly what they’ve done in this case.
The vast majority of people in the Church of Ireland are appalled by the departure from this ethos and this can be witnessed by the barrage of comments on FB and over 500 signatures on the petition.
We can’t allow this level of discrimination in this day and age. It’s just not acceptable and not in keeping with the long established tradition and ethos of the Church of Ireland.0 -
There are 2 separate issues. Mainstream Roman Catholic based education and minority faith based education. Each of them are treated differently for valid reasons which I’m happy to explain if needed.
Up to recently, St Patrick’s National School had a very open policy of inclusivity, fairness and non discrimination.
I’m now 44 years of age and even back then in those slightly more “sectarian” days, nearly half of our class was non CoI.
That policy remained in place for decades up until very recently when the Church took a turn in direction.
It is precisely because of the departure from that policy of inclusiveness that the school has now lost a fanstastic secretary who was there for many many years, they also lost an incredibly talented vice head, who was, as it happens and not that it matters, Roman Catholic, and now they’ve lost a hugely experienced, talented and respected principal <SNIP>
None of these people wanted to leave. They’ve all been there many years. <SNIP>. They didn’t leave because they wanted to. They left because they had no choice. They were pushed out because they disagreed with the sectarian nature of the new admission policy which the school has been adopting by stealth.
They are abusing the rules granted to minority faith schools by reducing the school size so they only have to take in children of a CoI background. Even the minister for education has said it’s absolutely unprecedented for a school to turn down an extra teacher which is exactly what they’ve done in this case.
The vast majority of people in the Church of Ireland are appalled by the departure from this ethos and this can be witnessed by the barrage of comments on FB and over 500 signatures on the petition.
We can’t allow this level of discrimination in this day and age. It’s just not acceptable and not in keeping with the long established tradition and ethos of the Church of Ireland.
Let's be honest this is down to one rector with extreme views, I personally dealt with him re my sons admission a few years ago and he was extremely difficult and unpleasant with deal with, <SNIP>
was the complete opposite, such a lovely lady, he refused to sign the form because we aren't regular church goers but she wanted to give us a place(we are church of Ireland), she didn't agree with his view on this. Thank god we moved and went to another school, I could see this coming, it was clear there was a clash. The carry on by the church is disgraceful, I feel sorry for parents that have to deal with him.0 -
There are 2 separate issues. Mainstream Roman Catholic based education and minority faith based education. Each of them are treated differently for valid reasons which I’m happy to explain if needed.
(reformulating my post)
C of I education used to be popular because it was the alternative to Catholic education. Whether you were practicing CofI, culturally CofI, or not CofI at all but not Catholic, you'd try to send your kids to those schools so they didn't go through the whole communion/catechism/confirmation thing in a Catholic school. Education in the CofI religion was not in itself important, the important thing was what you avoided.
Now there are alternatives. If you don't want your kids taught Catholicism in school, there are Educate Together schools that don't teach any religion at all (but do teach about religion, and do support religious education outside school hours)
The effect is that the proportion of practicing CofI parents sending their kids to CofI schools is higher, which naturally pushes the schools to being more explicitly religious.
The question is, should the state support explicitly religious schools, or should the state move towards secular education? If you think the state should pay for kids to get specifically CofI education with a strong religious component, why not also Catholic education? (and Islamic, Jewish, Mormon, etc)
Does anyone think it is a good idea to segregate children at 4 and 5 years old based on their parents' religion?0 -
There are already state funded Muslim schools, with more in the pipeline.The question is, should the state support explicitly religious schools, or should the state move towards secular education? If you think the state should pay for kids to get specifically CofI education with a strong religious component, why not also Catholic education? (and Islamic, Jewish, Mormon, etc)
I would say it is harmful to society.Does anyone think it is a good idea to segregate children at 4 and 5 years old based on their parents' religion?
Unless kids affiliated with minority religions need to be protected from the state education system, which would have been the case in the past.
Even then, the state funding of segregated minority religion schools was not the correct response. The separation of church and state (as per other republics such as the USA and France) would have been the optimal solution all along.0 -
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Does anyone think it is a good idea to segregate children at 4 and 5 years old based on their parents' religion?
In a word ? No.
And it would seem a far simpler and more effective solution to providing school places if they were entirely secular and state funded.
That said, I believe we should respect the right of other's to educate their children under the ethos of their own faith should they choose to do so.
I think the key point though is that as it stands, and despite the fact that the church is owned by the CoI, it has, up to now, had a very deliberate ethos of admitting a diverse mix of families from all faiths and from none.
It's also great to see more and more options lately outside of the standard faith based schools with the Gaelscoile and Educate Together jumping on board..
So no to your question but i'm not sure we have a problem to fix on that front.
Or at least we didn't until recently..0 -
There is a tendency for shrinking organizations to become more rigid and zealous. The people who leave first are the ones who went along to get along, the people who leave last are the ones who feel strongly about the issue. For example, the Iona crowd becoming more prominent as the number of active, practicing Catholics becomes smaller.I believe we should respect the right of other's to educate their children under the ethos of their own faith should they choose to do so.
People have a right to bring children up in their faith.
Do they have a right to a school that will teach them that faith during school hours? Really?0 -
People have a right to bring children up in their faith.
Do they have a right to a school that will teach them that faith during school hours? Really?
If the church are providing it I can't see a problem with it.
Why would I be concerned by what they're doing if I wasn't interested in sending my kid there ?
If I want a secular education I can send my kid to ET..
Each to their own..
It'll make no difference to the kids..0 -
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and should this be applied to all religions and all denominations?
If your kid is a Jehovah's Witness, then you have a right to have a preacher? elder? minister? come into the school for four hours a week, during class times, and teach your kid.0 -
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and should this be applied to all religions and all denominations?
If your kid is a Jehovah's Witness, then you have a right to have a preacher? elder? minister? come into the school for four hours a week, during class times, and teach your kid.
If you're a Jehovah's Witness and you don't have a Jehovah's Witness school near you then I suggest you get onto those elders and get fundraising and go build a school.0 -
This thread really hasn't gone where I was hoping it would - if you don't like the amount of religion taught in school, don't send your kids there, but other parents should have the right to choose that option - In CoI primary schools, the amount of religious "education" is minimal and is more subtly reflected in the ethos by how things are done and what sort of behaviours are encouraged.
The point of the OP was that this particular school is admitting children, not just by their own baptism rule (which they are allowed to do as a minority faith) but by requiring church attendance as well - can you image the outrage if this was an added criteria for admission to Catholic schools? Christmas and Easter wouldn't cut it!0 -
This thread really hasn't gone where I was hoping it would.
Agreed. It was obvious where that line of questioning was going and it's not relevant.The point of the OP was that this particular school is admitting children, not just by their own baptism rule (which they are allowed to do as a minority faith) but by requiring church attendance as well - can you image the outrage if this was an added criteria for admission to Catholic schools? Christmas and Easter wouldn't cut it!
As of next year they'll be breaking the law so I'm not sure how that ties in with <SNIP> latter to the the parents which stated there would be no change.
He's been very tight lipped so let's wait and see.
All I know is there'll be an audible sigh of relief across Greystones the day this ridiculous rule is lifted and there'll be a lot more people lying in on a Sunday morning enjoying their croissant and a read of the papers :pac:Let's be honest this is down to one rector with extreme views, I personally dealt with him re my sons admission a few years ago and he was extremely difficult and unpleasant with deal with, <SNIP>was the complete opposite, such a lovely lady, he refused to sign the form because we aren't regular church goers but she wanted to give us a place(we are church of Ireland), she didn't agree with his view on this. Thank god we moved and went to another school, I could see this coming, it was clear there was a clash. The carry on by the church is disgraceful, I feel sorry for parents that have to deal with him.
I don't know how much you know but we haven't heard the start of it yet..0 -
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"but other parents should have the right to choose that option "
Why?
How does it benefit society to have the state fund sectarian education?
Why can't children receive their religious education outside school hours?0 -
But aren't the schools primarily funded by the state?
As above. You're looking in the wrong place for a debate on this.
I'd say the atheism section would be a good place to start but i'm sure a mod could help guide you even better.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614
I've no interest in debating this topic on this thread so won't reply again.
Cheers.0 -
Agreed. It was obvious where that line of questioning was going and it's not relevant.
As of next year they'll be breaking the law so I'm not sure how that ties in with <SNIP> latter to the the parents which stated there would be no change.
He's been very tight lipped so let's wait and see.
All I know is there'll be an audible sigh of relief across Greystones the day this ridiculous rule is lifted and there'll be a lot more people lying in on a Sunday morning enjoying their croissant and a read of the papers :pac:
I don't know how much you know but we haven't heard the start of it yet..
Eeemmmmm
The new law only applies to Catholic schools and not minority faiths. They wont be breaking any laws next year!It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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The funny thing is, the people in this thread arguing in favour of religious education are also saying that it's wrong to expect the children or their parents to actually, you know, demonstrate that they are religious.
It's vitally important that the state pays for children to be educated in the religion of their parents' choice, but it's an outrageous imposition to expect those parents to bring their kids to mass.0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »Eeemmmmm
The new law only applies to Catholic schools and not minority faiths. They wont be breaking any laws next year!
I think we've got our wires crossed..
The baptism barrier will be removed for Roman Catholics schools.
I meant the law regarding demonstrating active participation in the parish which will no longer be allowed for minority faiths.
"The Department of Education has confirmed minority faith schools will continue to be permitted to give priority enrolment to children on the basis of religion under new admission laws.
However, a spokesman said schools will not be permitted to rank these students “on the basis of the extent to which the child or his or her family are involved in local religious activities”."0 -
It seems a tad hypocritical to the rest of us that you expect to receive priority admission to this state funded school on the basis of your religion, yet you can't even be bothered to get up out of bed and attend the church on a Sunday morning.All I know is there'll be an audible sigh of relief across Greystones the day this ridiculous rule is lifted and there'll be a lot more people lying in on a Sunday morning enjoying their croissant and a read of the papers :pac:
Even though I'm an atheist, I'm starting to think the Rector has a very good point...
I would not be so confident about this. First of all, that legislation has not yet made its way through the Dail. Similar legislation back in 2015 was abandoned.The baptism barrier will be removed for Roman Catholics schools.
I meant the law regarding demonstrating active participation in the parish which will no longer be allowed for minority faiths.
"The Department of Education has confirmed minority faith schools will continue to be permitted to give priority enrolment to children on the basis of religion under new admission laws.
However, a spokesman said schools will not be permitted to rank these students “on the basis of the extent to which the child or his or her family are involved in local religious activities”."
Secondly, that "govt. spokesman's statement" does not count for much unless it is inserted in the legislation and duly enacted. A zealous rector might well determine who is a bona fide local member of the CoI on the basis of who he sees in his church. Is the state going to argue with him over membership? I don't think so.0 -
It seems a tad hypocritical to the rest of us that you expect to receive priority admission to this state funded school on the basis of your religion, yet you can't even be bothered to get up out of bed and attend the church on a Sunday morning.
Even though I'm an atheist, I'm starting to think the Rector has a very good point...
Well I don’t personally expect anything from anyone. I’m not a member of that or any other church and my children are well out of St Patrick’s.
But yet again I think you’re missing the pertinent point that at least 40% of the school are non CoI and some of them will be of no religion at all. What is that you expect them to do on a Sunday morning ? If they get up early and do 5 sun salutations would that be enough to quench your thirst on this issue ?Secondly, that "govt. spokesman's statement" does not count for much unless it is inserted in the legislation and duly enacted. A zealous rector might well determine who is a bona fide local member of the CoI on the basis of who he sees in his church. Is the state going to argue with him over membership? I don't think so.
The school admissions act was signed into law last week. They can certainly attempt to flout it if they like but I can’t imagine it’ll be too long before they find themselves defending against a claim if they do.0 -
They can do whatever they want on a Sunday morning after they have been enrolled. But this is about whether they get enrolled in the first place, its about priority admissions.But yet again I think you’re missing the pertinent point that at least 40% of the school are non CoI and some of them will be of no religion at all. What is that you expect them to do on a Sunday morning ? If they get up early and do 5 sun salutations would that be enough to quench your thirst on this issue ?
Indeed you are right, I see it was finalised on 18th July.The school admissions act was signed into law last week. They can certainly attempt to flout it if they like but I can’t imagine it’ll be too long before they find themselves defending against a claim if they do.
Here it is.
For primary schools, religious discrimination is deemed not to be discrimination if
Which is all very unwieldy, and as you suggest, might result in solicitors getting involved.When making an application for admission to a recognised primary
school, an applicant may provide
(a)a statement confirming that the student in respect of whom the
application relates is a member of a minority religion and that the
applicant wishes the student to be educated in a school that provides a programme of religious instruction or religious education which is of the same religious ethos as, or a similar religious ethos to, the religious ethos of the minority religion of the student concerned, and (b)any evidence that the applicant wishes to include to support the statement that the student in respect of whom the application relates is a member of a minority religion.
(2)A recognised primary school may, following an application in
accordance with subsection (1) and in accordance with this section,
give priority to the admission of a student where the school is satisfied that (a)the student concerned is a member of a minority religion, and (b) the school provides a programme of religious instruction or
religious education which is of the same religious ethos as, or a
similar religious ethos to, the religious ethos of the minority
religion of the student concerned.
(3)In satisfying itself in accordance with subsection (2)(a) a recognised
primary school shall take into account only(a)
the statement that the applicant has provided in accordance with
subsection (1)(a), and(b) any evidence that the applicant has provided in accordance with subsection (1)(b).
(4) (a)Subject to paragraph (b), a recognised primary school may not for
the purpose of admission to the school concerned rank, in order of
preference, by virtue of the particular religious denomination of a
student who has satisfied the school in accordance with subsection
(2) as against students of other religious denominations who have
satisfied the school concerned in accordance with that subsection.
(b)
Nothing in paragraph (a) shall preclude a recognised primary
school from applying the selection criteria set out in the school’s
admission policy to students who have satisfied the school in
accordance with subsection (2), where the number of such students
is greater than the number of places available.
It seems the applicant may state that they are members of a particular religion, and accompany that with some evidence (presumably a baptismal cert) If the school accepts the evidence, then that is it. Whether the Rector/BOM can reject a baptismal cert as being sufficient evidence of current church "membership" is unknown to me, but I suspect they probably cannot.
Its clear though that if somebody were to successfully state they were a Presbyterian, or a Methodist, or Episcopalian, a Lutheran, or a MickyMousearian, then non-attendance at the local CoI church could not be used against them when applying for priority admission to the CoI school.
Interesting to note that all this only applies to primary schools. So all the religious discriminatory provisions in the Templecarrig admission policy will have to go. And all the talk about parish boundaries.
Presumably anyone who has already been rejected for TC in September 2018 or 2019 could potentially have a claim now.
Its all very messy. But an improvement all the same.0 -
They can do whatever they want on a Sunday morning after they have been enrolled. But this is about whether they get enrolled in the first place, its about priority admissions.
Indeed you are right, I see it was finalised on 18th July.
Here it is.
For primary schools, religious discrimination is deemed not to be discrimination if
Which is all very unwieldy, and as you suggest, might result in solicitors getting involved.
It seems the applicant may state that they are members of a particular religion, and accompany that with some evidence (presumably a baptismal cert) If the school accepts the evidence, then that is it. Whether the Rector/BOM can reject a baptismal cert as being sufficient evidence of current church "membership" is unknown to me, but I suspect they probably cannot.
Its clear though that if somebody were to successfully state they were a Presbyterian, or a Methodist, or Episcopalian, a Lutheran, or a MickyMousearian, then non-attendance at the local CoI church could not be used against them when applying for priority admission to the CoI school.
Interesting to note that all this only applies to primary schools. So all the religious discriminatory provisions in the Templecarrig admission policy will have to go. And all the talk about parish boundaries.
Presumably anyone who has already been rejected for TC in September 2018 or 2019 could potentially have a claim now.
Its all very messy. But an improvement all the same.
In relation to the Church of Ireland, the only required and permissible means, in accordance with the Constitution of the Church of Ireland, for membership for a person of school-going age is a baptismal certificate. Once a person reaches 18, they are then eligible to be included on the Roll of Vestry People which entitles them to vote at Easter General Vestry (similar to an AGM in the corporate world) The Roll of Verstry People is in other words a Parish Register. Inclusion in this brings with it the expectation that you will contribute financially to the church according to your means and the Hope that you will attend church services reasonably regularly. There has never been Any Other Recognised Form if Church Membership in the Church of Ireland!!! There is NO set number of Sunday’s in a year that you must attend service in order to be considered a MEMBER. If a child is baptised in the CoI - THEY are a member (it says it in the service of baptism!!!) If one of a child’s parents is on the Parish Register THEY ARE a member. It matters not one iota whether they attend once a year or once a week. It is the imposition of this new practice of leaving it to the discretion of the local priest (yes, CoI clergy are called priests! Some are Rectors some are Priests-in-Charge) to decide who attends service regularly enough to be considered ‘an active faith participant’ that is at the nub of this debate.... and it sickens me!!! It is SO contrary to the attitude that Christ, the founder of CHRISTianity (the clue us in the title folks!) displayed. For goodeness sake if the exchequer is willing to stump up the money to pay another teacher and HAS ALREADY PAID FOR the classroom - are you not HONOUR BOUND to accept it and take the kids. Another 20 kids ain’t gonna change a whole ethos that’s already enshrined in both school and legislative policy!!! It is just SO wrong! I say this as an active member of the Church of Ireland and a Synod Member!0 -
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They can do whatever they want on a Sunday morning after they have been enrolled. But this is about whether they get enrolled in the first place, its about priority admissions.
Indeed you are right, I see it was finalised on 18th July.
Here it is.
For primary schools, religious discrimination is deemed not to be discrimination if
Which is all very unwieldy, and as you suggest, might result in solicitors getting involved.
It seems the applicant may state that they are members of a particular religion, and accompany that with some evidence (presumably a baptismal cert) If the school accepts the evidence, then that is it. Whether the Rector/BOM can reject a baptismal cert as being sufficient evidence of current church "membership" is unknown to me, but I suspect they probably cannot.
.
That is exactly what happened to me, I am CofI, have baptismal certs for my kids, he refused to sign the school form for St Patrick's on the basis of church attendance. I was in a slightly different situation at the time as we were in process of moving so I knew I would likely not need the place in St Patrick's anyway, I was also applying to other schools in other areas and he wouldn't even sign those forms, so he was actually trying to block me from any church of Ireland school! I tackled him on the unreasonable of this and he did then agree to sign those forms but not St Patrick's. When I told any of my Church of Ireland friends and family, literally no one had ever heard of this before and were all shocked. This was 2 years ago and it's clear things have only gotten worse. He caused such unnecessary stress to us at the time, we were trying to sell our house and move to a totally new area and unsure of what school we would end up in, we were already at disadvantage applying to schools in areas we didn't have an address and he still tried to make things difficult!0
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