Do we need effective rent controls in Dublin?

steddyeddy

Looking at this p1ss take of a room up for 610 Euro it strikes me that renting in Dublin is getting a lot worse. I realise this is clearly a supply and demand problem but is there a case to be made for rent controls? As I said this wouldn't solve the demand and should be implemented with a major construction program and improved travel network to Dublin, but surely paying this much of your income on a room isn't conducive to a healthy economy.


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/room-advertised-for-rent-in-dublin-compared-to-harry-potters-cupboard-under-the-stairs-857069.html

Yer Da sells Avon

Rather than handing money over to private landlords, the government should build enough houses to kill off demand for private renting altogether. Charge people a rent based not on the whims of the market, but on their income.

Fr_Dougal

Tax the bejesus out of the vulture funds buying property. The likes of Reis, Kennedy Wilson etc.

4ensic15

steddyeddy wrote: »

Looking at this p1ss take of a room up for 610 Euro it strikes me that renting in Dublin is getting a lot worse. I realise this is clearly a supply and demand problem but is there a case to be made for rent controls? As I said this wouldn't solve the demand and should be implemented with a major construction program and improved travel network to Dublin, but surely paying this much of your income on a room isn't conducive to a healthy economy.


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/room-advertised-for-rent-in-dublin-compared-to-harry-potters-cupboard-under-the-stairs-857069.html

Rent controls are the cause of this type of thing. When the supply of accommodation is limited the only thing people can do is cram in tighter. Accommodation si limited because current policies are reducing the supply. There are houses in flats all over Ranelagh, Rathmines and Rathgar converted to flats and marketed as family homes. The supply of rental accommodation is being reduced. In London, something like that isn't allowed to happen. The more rent controls are put in, the worse it is going to get.

odyssey06

This government doesn't do effective, it does powerpoint reports - it is resolved only to be irresolute.

OneEightSeven

Immigration control would be more effective, but nobody wants to discuss the elephant in the room.

steddyeddy

4ensic15 wrote: »

Rent controls are the cause of this type of thing. When the supply of accommodation is limited the only thing people can do is cram in tighter. Accommodation si limited because current policies are reducing the supply. There are houses in flats all over Ranelagh, Rathmines and Rathgar converted to flats and marketed as family homes. The supply of rental accommodation is being reduced. In London, something like that isn't allowed to happen. The more rent controls are put in, the worse it is going to get.

So rent controls are the cause of a room being rented out at 610 a month?

KevinCavan

No more rent controls please. The last “rental cap,” set by the government, made rents go up across the board by a few hundred euro and rents have only gone up since.

KevinCavan

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Immigration control would be more effective, but nobody wants to discuss the elephant in the room.

Thank you, even though you are racist. I will also be deemed a racist for what I say. If you go to view houses that are up for rent it is mainly foreigners in the queue. It is the thriving economy that is bringing them here, but there should be some regulation of the numbers coming in.

KevinCavan

KevinCavan wrote: »

No more rent controls please. The last “rental cap,” set by the government, made rents go up across the board by a few hundred euro and rents have only gone up since.

Every time the government has tried to help, they made things worse. When they brought in the rent caps, what they should have done was a rent freeze. No increase in rent allowed for the next two years from midnight tonight (on the day the announced it). Instead, my rent went up by 8% the following day. Thanks gubbermint.

4ensic15

steddyeddy wrote: »

So rent controls are the cause of a room being rented out at 610 a month?

You got it.

steddyeddy

4ensic15 wrote: »

You got it.

Well that's beyond stupidity. If landlords leave the market due to not being able to charge astronomical prices then maybe they're in the wrong job.

4ensic15

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's beyond stupidity. If landlords leave the market due to not being able to charge astronomical prices then maybe they're in the wrong job.

They can't charge reasonable rent. That is why they left. That cause rents to rise.

Ulysses Gaze

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Rather than handing money over to private landlords, the government should build enough houses to kill off demand for private renting altogether. Charge people a rent based not on the whims of the market, but on their income.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/find-out-if-your-local-td-is-a-landlord-or-owns-multiple-properties-1.3393692

But that would mean that politicians and ex-politicians such as Frank '40 gaffs' Fahey would not be able to make money from their BTL properties.

You can see the bind they're in.......

Del2005

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's beyond stupidity. If landlords leave the market due to not being able to charge astronomical prices then maybe they're in the wrong job.

Landlords are streaming out because it's not a good business, for a private individual with a few units, to be in. In any other business when the price of the product is increasing people flow into it and the price goes down with competition. In Dublin the prices are going up and small scale LLs are running for the hills. This isn't because they can or can't charge astronomical rents it's because they have zero protection in a system designed against them.

So what we have now is vulture funds buying up bulk properties (evicting the tenants and doing up the property to charge a higher rent while paying no taxes) while the small scale landlord who pays 50% tax on rent and was nice to a tenant gets screwed.

Yes, rent control is working well.

steddyeddy

4ensic15 wrote: »

They can't charge reasonable rent. That is why they left. That cause rents to rise.

We have a tiny room in the OP going for 610 Euro and you're telling me they can't charge reasonable rent. You mean they should be able to charge higher?

Snotty

Small scale LLs expect their mortgage to be paid and also a profit, any blip at all and they run for the hills. Small scale LLs should barely exist, maybe some people who are looking long term and the asset being paid off by retirement but with input from them also. Large scale LL companies would mean the government wouldn't need to bring in so many messures to protect tenants from small scale LLs, who don't understand basic concepts like general ware and tear

steddyeddy

Del2005 wrote: »

Landlords are streaming out because it's not a good business, for a private individual with a few units, to be in. In any other business when the price of the product is increasing people flow into it and the price goes down with competition. In Dublin the prices are going up and small scale LLs are running for the hills. This isn't because they can or can't charge astronomical rents it's because they have zero protection in a system designed against them.

So what we have now is vulture funds buying up bulk properties (evicting the tenants and doing up the property to charge a higher rent while paying no taxes) while the small scale landlord who pays 50% tax on rent and was nice to a tenant gets screwed.

Yes, rent control is working well.

Housing can't be like any other business. Like education or health it has to have a safety net involved.

4ensic15

steddyeddy wrote: »

We have a tiny room in the OP going for 610 Euro and you're telling me they can't charge reasonable rent. You mean they should be able to charge higher?

What should happen is that the market should be supplied to keep rents at the desired level. The Central bank used to release funds to bring down interest rates and buy back currency when it wanted higher rates. The same should be done with housing. Rent capping only makes things worse. The situation should be that no one should be able to seriously ask that price, not that they should be stopped from asking it.

the_syco

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's beyond stupidity. If landlords leave the market due to not being able to charge astronomical prices then maybe they're in the wrong job.

If landlords leave the market, there are less places to rent. Supply and demand then causes prices to rise, or people just don't move, especially if they can't buy a house.

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Immigration control would be more effective, but nobody wants to discuss the elephant in the room.

The elephant in the room is making it illegal not to accept HAP. Now no-one accepts it, but you can't say that, so LL's just raised the rent about what HAP will give you.

Snotty wrote: »

Small scale LLs expect their mortgage to be paid and also a profit, any blip at all and they run for the hills. Small scale LLs should barely exist, maybe some people who are looking long term and the asset being paid off by retirement but with input from them also.

Small scale landlords who were nice to tenants and rented at below the market rate now cannot raise the rent for new tenants, and are leaving the market.

Snotty wrote: »

Large scale LL companies would mean the government wouldn't need to bring in so many messures to protect tenants from small scale LLs, who don't understand basic concepts like general ware and tear

Large scale LL companies, also called REITs, don't care about sob stories. Pay on time, or be evicted. They will get the max amount out of the tenants, and will raise the rent as often as they can.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Housing can't be like any other business.

Any other business where if you stop paying rent you are kicked out?

suicide_circus

the whole thing is a clusterfukc beyond comprehension. it's up there with the hse and the Israel/Palestine situation.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's beyond stupidity. If landlords leave the market due to not being able to charge astronomical prices then maybe they're in the wrong job.

..... Rent controls have never worked. So people like yourself ignored other counties experience of them and demanded controls. .. and guy got them and yes it made it worse. Now you want more. How many times do you expect to repeat the same mistakes over and over before you realise you will get the same results....

The govt is happy that you chase your tail with stuff like this as it means their inaction gets ignored.

They are happy for a shortage to drive demand as it attracts foreign investment. Who will buy up everything and price the locals out of the market. It's just repeat of the UK and London in particular.

But people seem to be myopic and unable to see the bigger picture. They are more interested in stories about Harry Potter.

Ulysses Gaze

Also...don't underestimate the impact of AirBnB....

IN FEBRUARY 2017, there were 6,729 Airbnb listings in Dublin, but now that figure is roughly 7,300.

Just under half of them are entire homes or apartments. While certainly not the cause of the housing crisis, campaigners say the prominence of Airbnb properties in specific areas of Dublin is helping to make the problem worse.

http://www.thejournal.ie/airbnb-rent-dublin-3872491-Mar2018/

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Looking at this p1ss take of a room up for 610 Euro it strikes me that renting in Dublin is getting a lot worse. I realise this is clearly a supply and demand problem but is there a case to be made for rent controls? As I said this wouldn't solve the demand and should be implemented with a major construction program and improved travel network to Dublin, but surely paying this much of your income on a room isn't conducive to a healthy economy.


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/room-advertised-for-rent-in-dublin-compared-to-harry-potters-cupboard-under-the-stairs-857069.html

Letting property is a private business and LLs should be allowed to charge as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay. Its insane to have the government dictating what you can charge for your product and moving the goal posts constantly making their business impossible to run and not profitable.

Snotty wrote: »

Small scale LLs expect their mortgage to be paid and also a profit, any blip at all and they run for the hills. Small scale LLs should barely exist, maybe some people who are looking long term and the asset being paid off by retirement but with input from them also. Large scale LL companies would mean the government wouldn't need to bring in so many messures to protect tenants from small scale LLs, who don't understand basic concepts like general ware and tear

There are already plenty of issues with large scale LLs it’s laughable that some still are playing this drum that they are going to be better than smaller LL when it fact it’s going to make things far worse for tenants.

riffmongous

beauf wrote: »

..... Rent controls have never worked.So people like yourself ignored other counties experience of them and demanded controls. .. and guy got them and yes it made it worse. Now you want more. How many times do you expect to repeat the same mistakes over and over before you realise you will get the same results....

The govt is happy that you chase your tail with stuff like this as it means their inaction gets ignored.

They are happy for a shortage to drive demand as it attracts foreign investment. Who will buy up everything and price the locals out of the market. It's just repeat of the UK and London in particular.

But people seem to be myopic and unable to see the bigger picture. They are more interested in stories about Harry Potter.

They work well in Vienna, in combination with a large stock of social and community housing.. and how is Vienna ranked as a place to live again? Right, number one in the world on some of the best ranking systems

Myra Late Cap

Myra Late Cap wrote: »

Letting property is a private business and LLs should be allowed to charge as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay. Its insane to have the government dictating what you can charge for your product and moving the goal posts constantly making their business impossible to run and not profitable.

I suppose by this logic it would be fair for the government to remove the state-funded footpath, road, electricity, water, sewage and all other infrastructure it has funded that allows the landlord to provide accommodation in the first place then?

For as long as a private landlord depends on so many state resources to keep his "private" business going, he's not in much of a position to question the right of the state to make regulations governing how he operates his business. Give and take, not just take.

beauf

riffmongous wrote: »

They work well in Vienna, in combination with a large stock of social and community housing.. and how is Vienna ranked as a place to live again? Right, number one in the world on some of the best ranking systems

Then it's not rental controls, it's having enough stock in the first place.

the_syco

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Also...don't underestimate the impact of AirBnB....

http://www.thejournal.ie/airbnb-rent-dublin-3872491-Mar2018/

I'm assuming AirBnB is growing so well, as many LL's have probably decided that the PTRB is useless to them. Useless in evicting non-paying tenants, and useless in getting money owed to them back.

riffmongous wrote: »

They work well in Vienna, in combination with a large stock of social and community housing.. and how is Vienna ranked as a place to live again? Right, number one in the world on some of the best ranking systems

Currently, all LL's have to accept HAP. It's illegal to say no. There is little to no actual social housing; it's all private LL's. If you eliminated the "large stock of social and community housing", how would Vienna be, I wonder? (seriously asking)

Yer Da sells Avon

Myra Late Cap wrote: »

Letting property is a private business and LLs should be allowed to charge as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay.

"Fuck the poor"

mikemac2

The homeless stay in the hotels and the tourists stay in the apartments. Something isn’t working

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...as long as a private landlord depends on so many state resources to keep his "private" business going, ......

You have it backwards. The landlord would prefer not to have any involvement with state resources, or social tenants. It's the state that has forced that situation. By deciding not to build their own social housing..

EdgeCase

We need much more supply and an urgent explanation as to why supply isn't returning to the market when there's clearly huge demand not being met.

There's something wrong with the market.

beauf

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

"Fuck the poor"

Why are you blaming the private market for a situation caused by the government.

beauf

EdgeCase wrote: »

We need much more supply and an urgent explanation as to why supply isn't returning to the market when there's clearly huge demand not being met.

There's something wrong with the market.

The market is acting normally. Supply and demand.

Supply is being restricted.

Wanderer78

EdgeCase wrote: »

We need much more supply and an urgent explanation as to why supply isn't returning to the market when there's clearly huge demand not being met.

There's something wrong with 'the market'.

you can say that again!

riffmongous

beauf wrote: »

Then it's not rental controls, it's having enough stock in the first place.

It's both actually, rent controls are in law. Only 7% of all available stock are exempt and even then you can still go to a judge and claim rent is too high.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

We have a tiny room in the OP going for 610 Euro and you're telling me they can't charge reasonable rent. You mean they should be able to charge higher?

I'm not sure you understand supply and demand.

It's not about this room. It's about the lack of supply of anything cheaper. In this location. In other locations there are cheaper options.

Caryatnid

Let's not forget this important fact: over half the homes available for rent in Dublin are on Airbnb. This should simply be not allowed.

I believe Berlin banned whole homes being rented on Airbnb (rooms only were allowed).

I know this wouldn't solve everything, but it WOULD make a difference.

Reference here, please read: https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/one-of-every-two-dublin-rentals-now-only-for-tourists-daft-ie-study-claims-1.3496502%3fmode=amp

Yer Da sells Avon

beauf wrote: »

Why are you blaming the private market for a situation caused by the government.

I'd bet next month's rent that the poster I was quoting voted for the current government.

riffmongous

the_syco wrote: »

Currently, all LL's have to accept HAP. It's illegal to say no. There is little to no actual social housing; it's all private LL's. If you eliminated the "large stock of social and community housing", how would Vienna be, I wonder? (seriously asking)

I can't even imagine how you could do that, the city has been like this since the 20s. The only thing I could guess is that it wouldn't be number one in the world anymore, so why on earth would you

Ulysses Gaze

Caryatnid wrote: »

Let's not forget this important fact: over half the homes available for rent in Dublin are on Airbnb. This should simply be not allowed.

I believe Berlin banned whole homes being rented on Airbnb (rooms only were allowed).

I know this wouldn't solve everything, but it WOULD make a difference.

Reference here, please read: https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/one-of-every-two-dublin-rentals-now-only-for-tourists-daft-ie-study-claims-1.3496502%3fmode=amp

Airbnb are HQ'ed here, currently employ 500 and are looking to expand to 1000 in the next 5 years....so no chance the government are going to ban their "product"

LirW

Currently, all LL's have to accept HAP. It's illegal to say no. There is little to no actual social housing; it's all private LL's. If you eliminated the "large stock of social and community housing", how would Vienna be, I wonder? (seriously asking)

I gladly answer that for you: The available stock of social and community housing is super low there and people who need and can avail of it wait forever. There are a lot of black sheep living in these apartments (it's almost completely apartments) and the way it works is super complex and has a lot to do with who you actually know. There's a building boom over there going on at the moment where a lot of new luxury rental property is thrown on the market out of reach for most people. The big stock that's there is full and if you need something affordable you'll look long, they have other housing problems. The one thing that's a difference though is that there's a support payment that everyone can avail of if they have low income and the rent per square meter is below a certain threshold, the payment goes to the tenant and they pay the LL. Now it's not as high as HAP but it's definitely a big help.
The actual market over there is in a state because Austria is still working through the huge influx of refugees that they got 3 years ago and this brought certain socio-economic problems. It's not easy finding affordable accommodation there either. If I go in-depth now I'll spend the next 3 hours typing though, so I hope it helps to understand a bit.
But Vienna isn't a kip full of junkies and the police is actually enforcing misdemeanor, so it's a pretty nice and safe place to be. Plus all the culture. And the food.

Edit: rental caps are within the inflation. You can't raise the rent more than inflation, if there's a deflation, rent usually goes down. If your tenant moves out you can raise the rent a bit more unless they get someone to take over the contract, popular method with unlimited contracts. But LLs find their ways around it, new developments now have ridiculously high "parking lot rents" where they charge you some prime location rate in the outer districts or "kitchen rents". Apartments come unfurnished but kitchen is usually in already.

steddyeddy

4ensic15 wrote: »

What should happen is that the market should be supplied to keep rents at the desired level. The Central bank used to release funds to bring down interest rates and buy back currency when it wanted higher rates. The same should be done with housing. Rent capping only makes things worse. The situation should be that no one should be able to seriously ask that price, not that they should be stopped from asking it.

And I completely agree but these things don't happen overnight. Decades will pass until supply begins to approach demand. Until then we will price ordinary people out of the market and a symbiotic approach is needed.

beauf

Caryatnid wrote: »

Let's not forget this important fact: over half the homes available for rent in Dublin are on Airbnb. This should simply be not allowed.

I believe Berlin banned whole homes being rented on Airbnb (rooms only were allowed)....

Berlin also had rent controls and it didn't work either. It just caused other problems.

Airbnb is a problem. But its only a symptom of a bigger issue.

Caryatnid

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Airbnb are HQ'ed here, currently employ 500 and are looking to expand to 1000 in the next 5 years....so no chance the government are going to ban their "product"

I think that is an excellent point

beauf

beauf wrote: »

You have it backwards. The landlord would prefer not to have any involvement with state resources, or social tenants. It's the state that has forced that situation. By deciding not to build their own social housing..

Great, so we can expect private landlords to build their own electricity, water, sewage, telecommunications, road and footpath infrastructure and stop depending upon the state for this?
At least there'd be integrity to their "the state has no right to interfere in private property" mantra then. At the moment it's just risible hypocrisy.

beauf

riffmongous wrote: »

They work well in Vienna, in combination with a large stock of social and community housing.. and how is Vienna ranked as a place to live again? Right, number one in the world on some of the best ranking systems

Vienna has a housing shortage also. And a problem with new supply being restricted. Rent controls have helped with rents, but not with the shortage. In fact they may have exacerbated it. They did not stop building social housing, we did. Big difference. We still aren't building them. They are.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

Great, so we can expect private landlords to build their own electricity, water, sewage, telecommunications, road and footpath infrastructure and stop depending upon the state for this?
At least there'd be integrity to their "the state has no right to interfere in private property" mantra then. At the moment it's just risible hypocrisy.

The State doesn't build it, taxes build it...

beauf

I'm amazed how little criticism of the govt inaction on building housing there in on this thread and other similar ones.

Even when other Govt building policies are mentioned, our Govt gets a free pass. Amazing.

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

I'm not sure you understand supply and demand.

It's not about this room. It's about the lack of supply of anything cheaper. In this location. In other locations there are cheaper options.

I'm not sure you read my sentence properly. I wasn't correlating the price of the room with the lack of supply. The price and quality of the room wasn't a natural progression leading on from a mismatch of supply and demand. I think that an increased supply would make it a renter's market however I still don't think that landlords should have the ability to rent a room of this calibre, for this price. Housing, like a lot of other businesses where human well being is involved should have some state involvement.

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

The State doesn't build it, taxes build it...

Who collects an administers the taxes?