TNG runthrough

odyssey06

I remember Insurrection being talked about during development as if there would be a Federation civil war, so a lot of fans went in expecting something with much wider political impact, and not something on the scale of a TNG episode.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Worst Part: Shelby's overly written antagonistic nature. So manufactured and no way would she be considered for No.1 anywhere if she can not follow simple orders.

That's how Riker got the job, disobeying his captains orders and forbidding the captain to go on an away mission.

pixelburp

Isn't that the point of the number 1, at least in fiction anyway; I figured the whole idea was that they are the balance to the potential whims of the captain?

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Isn't that the point of the number 1, at least in fiction anyway; I figured the whole idea was that they are the balance to the potential whims of the captain?

Data even says as much to Worf in Gambit, as long as it's done in private, the first officer is free to disagree or offer alternatives to the captains orders.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Data even says as much to Worf in Gambit, as long as it's done in private, the first officer is free to disagree or offer alternatives to the captains orders.

In private is the key

She undermines

pixelburp

That's true re. Shelly. Mind you, TNG was often guilty of writing its guest Starfleet Officers as intentionally antagonistic to the Enterprise family, even at the expense of internal world-building. Cadets and privates were usually Ok, but anyone more senior than a Commander usually turned out to be a duplicitous jerk

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

That's true re. Shelly. Mind you, TNG was often guilty of writing its guest Starfleet Officers as intentionally antagonistic to the Enterprise family, even at the expense of internal world-building. Cadets and privates were usually Ok, but anyone more senior than a Commander usually turned out to be a duplicitous jerk

Yes but they usually got their comeuppance
OR
Were Ronny Cox and Riker became the arsehole (again Jellico was the captain and totally correct to strip Riker down, hated that they made it that Riker had to be the hero pilot needed).
Jellico was the captain there to do a specific task, and he did it with aplomb. He didn't have time to hold the crew's hand, he was there to stop a war.



Shelby got nothing but reward, for her behaviour. Find it hard to believe that she would have made it to Lt.Com without having the hairdryer treatment blow some of the brashness away.
She didn't work well with superiors, drove her team to exhaustion, flouted safety and (worse from a chain of command standpoint) showed constant willingness to go over the head of her superior officers)

Elizabeth Dennehy was great in the role, I take issue with the direction/writing. They just pushed it too far, for me

Johnny Storm

Deleted User wrote: »

Best of Both Worlds: Part 1


Best Part: The LaForge manoeuvre
Worst Part: Shelby's overly written antagonistic nature. So manufactured and no way would she be considered for No.1 anywhere if she can not follow simple orders.

I have to say, I thought this was really cool. By exposing how superfluous (what a word! :pac:) Riker is, it really made you think that maybe they would get rid of him (at least that was my thinking when it was first aired). She is the up and coming hotshot whereas Riker is stuck in his position and has turned down his own command several times. I thought she really put it up to Riker and it worked very well. She basically says "If you can't handle it, step aside and make way for someone who can"

Plus: this is probably the best TNG ep, IMHO

Johnny Storm

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I have to say, I thought this was really cool. By exposing how superfluous (what a word! :pac:) Riker is, it really made you think that maybe they would get rid of him (at least that was my thinking when it was first aired). She is the up and coming hotshot whereas Riker is stuck in his position and has turned down his own command several times. I thought she really put it up to Riker and it worked very well.

Plus: this is probably the best TNG ep, IMHO

You can put it up to someone fine but you cannot be a openly insubordinate towards a superior officer on a continuous basis. Especially about trivial things like taking Data on an away mission early, without common courtesy of informing the mission commander. Or saying "I don't see your problem"

No matter how much a hotshot you are, could you imagine saying that to your manager?


As I said: stir the pot, have her antagonistic but keep it within reason

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

You can put it up to someone fine but you cannot be a openly insubordinate towards a superior officer on a continuous basis. Especially about trivial things like taking Data on an away mission early, without common courtesy of informing the mission commander. Or saying "I don't see your problem"

No matter how much a hotshot you are, could you imagine saying that to your manager?

Sounds a little like a young lieutenant commander [Picard] once recruited as a first officer.



I liked her a lot.

Goodshape

Goodshape wrote: »

Sounds a little like a young lieutenant commander [Picard] once recruited as a first officer.



I liked her a lot.

It's pure personal opinion, of course, and I liked the idea of Shelby (and the actor) and from the moment of her being 1st officer everything settles down.

Just the interactions with Riker at the start are too far, for me.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

In private is the key

She undermines

So did Worf, it's a learning curve.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

So did Worf, it's a learning curve.

She's a Lt. Commander on fast track

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

She's a Lt. Commander on fast track

And probably had less time in Starfleet during BoBW than Worf did during Gambit. Shelby was right though Riker's career had kind of stalled by then. Granted that was only because he was a main character on a series.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

And probably had less time in Starfleet during BoBW than Worf did during Gambit. Shelby was right though Riker's career had kind of stalled by then. Granted that was only because he was a main character on a series.

I am not saying that she was wrong. I am saying that her character was written badly, in that they made her too much of an antagonist to Riker. She was dialled up to 11 in the first episode.

Stark

I thought her character was excellent. It was Riker who came across as a chauvinist dick for the most part in my opinion. You see the same dickish behaviour from Riker in other episodes when dealing with people outside his Enterprise circle of friends. The episode where they find the Thomas Riker copy of him is a perfect example. When it's just himself vs himself, the needless antagonism is in full force.

Evade wrote: »

So did Worf, it's a learning curve.

Loved the scene in one of the episodes where Data is acting captain ("Gambit" I think) and he takes Worf to town on this.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

I thought her character was excellent. It was Riker who came across as a chauvinist dick for the most part in my opinion. You see the same dickish behaviour from Riker in other episodes when dealing with people outside his Enterprise circle of friends. The episode where they find the Thomas Riker copy of him is a perfect example. When it's just himself vs himself, the needless antagonism is in full force.

he does get a bit 'you'll do what *I* say because *I* am in charge here!!!'

IvySlayer

Riker definitely has attitude problems. Way too passive-aggressive.

There's a quote in this episode where Commander Riker says 'Don't worry I can handle Shelby'

No-one asked you to handle her, it just felt like he was looking to argue with her.

IvySlayer

So now Riker is now berating Shelby for beaming down with Data an hour early for an away mission, why is he not giving out to Data as he's the senior officer over Shelby?

Evade

Stark wrote: »

Loved the scene in one of the episodes where Data is acting captain ("Gambit" I think) and he takes Worf to town on this.

Captain Data in Gambit and Redemption are some of my favourite TNG scenes.

IvySlayer

IvySlayer wrote: »

So now Riker is now berating Shelby for beaming down with Data an hour early for an away mission, why is he not giving out to Data as he's the senior officer over Shelby?

Probably because she is the mission specialist but in charge of Borg activity by an admiral

AMKC

IvySlayer wrote: »

So now Riker is now berating Shelby for beaming down with Data an hour early for an away mission, why is he not giving out to Data as he's the senior officer over Shelby?

He should have been praising her for having intuitive and being early not berating her. I think he was just annoyed that she got there before him and did not call him when going down.

Inviere

AMKC wrote: »

He should have been praising her for having intuitive and being early not berating her. I think he was just annoyed that she got there before him and did not call him when going down.

He was annoyed because, in his own words, if there's to be a change in the mission plans, he expected to be notified. A fair statement imo.

Shelby and Riker clashed, yes he was passive aggressive with her, but it's not as if she's an angel either, there's several examples of her having difficulty accepting/following the chain of command. She had a lot to learn, but Riker handled her wrong too.

Rawr

Inviere wrote: »

He was annoyed because, in his own words, if there's to be a change in the mission plans, he expected to be notified. A fair statement imo.

Shelby and Riker clashed, yes he was passive aggressive with her, but it's not as if she's an angel either, there's several examples of her having difficulty accepting/following the chain of command. She had a lot to learn, but Riker handled her wrong too.

He does seem to eventually learn though:

Shelby: Captain Riker, based on our past relationship, there's no reason for me to expect to become your first officer, except that you need me. I know how to get things done, and I have the expertise in the Borg.

Riker: And you have a lot to learn, Commander.

Shelby: Yes, sir.

Riker: Almost as much as I had to learn when I came on board as Captain Picard's first officer. A fact he reminded me of when I commented on what a pain in the neck you are.

Inviere

Rawr wrote: »

He does seem to eventually learn though

He does, and probably made the right call in promoting Shelby (though if Data had feelings he'd be pissed ). Similarly, Shelby cools down a bit too.

Rawr

Inviere wrote: »

He does, and probably made the right call in promoting Shelby (though if Data had feelings he'd be pissed ). Similarly, Shelby cools down a bit too.

Well...at least he told Data that he was probably going to promote him to XO (if it weren't for Shelby). So he did kind of take Data's feelings into account...if though he doesn't have any (yet).

Regarding Shelby, there is one thing that often bugged me. She was Starfleet's specialist on the Borg...however the Enterprise crew nearly all had first-hand experience with the Borg. How was it that Shelby was *better qualified* to fight the Borg than them?

Now, I get that Starfleet possibly knew about the Borg before the events of "Q-Who" and may have had more data to study, but I'm going to guess that the Enterprise's recent run-in with a Cube was probably the best source of data that they had. Thus I have a feeling that most of Shelby's Borg know-how is essentially based on records from Enterprise. Seemed redundant to add a "Borg Expert" on a ship of experienced Borg fighters. (Beyond the whole thing about her being a Riker replacement).

Evade

Rawr wrote: »

Well...at least he told Data that he was probably going to promote him to XO (if it weren't for Shelby). So he did kind of take Data's feelings into account...if though he doesn't have any (yet).

Regarding Shelby, there is one thing that often bugged me. She was Starfleet's specialist on the Borg...however the Enterprise crew nearly all had first-hand experience with the Borg. How was it that Shelby was *better qualified* to fight the Borg than them?

Now, I get that Starfleet possibly knew about the Borg before the events of "Q-Who" and may have had more data to study, but I'm going to guess that the Enterprise's recent run-in with a Cube was probably the best source of data that they had. Thus I have a feeling that most of Shelby's Borg know-how is essentially based on records from Enterprise. Seemed redundant to add a "Borg Expert" on a ship of experienced Borg fighters. (Beyond the whole thing about her being a Riker replacement).

The way I saw it was that it was Shelby's full time job to study the Borg whereas the Enterprise crew's full time job was boldly going. It's the same reason that despite the science facilities on the Enterprise being on par or better than anything else in the fleet long term scientific observation is usually done by those dinky little Oberth class ships.

De Bhál

on a rewatch through the series myself

Season 2 Episode 06
The Schizoid man

Data's internal computer gets taken over by the personality of his 'Grandfather'.
His eulogy at the funeral is very good.

Very good episode. Data is excellent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=Qlb181Z0eFY

Stark

Ah yes, "to know him, was to love him. And to love him, was to know him... Those who knew him, loved him, while those who did not know him, loved him from afar.". Always remembered that quote and how well Brent Spiner delivered the cringe

Edit found the YouTube link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlb181Z0eFY

DARMOK!!

That is all