Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

relax carry on

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ill have to look up all of those to check exactly , but stuff like "he called Obama a lazy student" isn't racist , just because he insults somebody of another race doesn't make it race related. They also have a section on anti-semitism in which they talk about him tweeting a star of David next to money yet can't produce the tweet, also considering the way trump goes on about Israel (which Im not a fan of) , he's the worst anti-semite US president Ive ever seen.

Eric any chance you could have a go at this one from yesterday. I know there's been a lot of posts since then.

relax carry on wrote: »

Eric to cut out the back and forth, is there anything you disagree with or find more than a bit odd about Trumps present/past behaviour as an individual, a businessman and now POTUS? I think most people on this thread have looked at Trumps long history in the public eye, and noted several disturbing themes running through his life. You do not need to look much further than his own Twitter account. No media bias etc needed there. His own tweets show him for what he is.

looksee

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ill have to look up all of those to check exactly , but stuff like "he called Obama a lazy student" isn't racist , just because he insults somebody of another race doesn't make it race related. They also have a section on anti-semitism in which they talk about him tweeting a star of David next to money yet can't produce the tweet, also considering the way trump goes on about Israel (which Im not a fan of) , he's the worst anti-semite US president Ive ever seen.

He didn't say Obama was a lazy student, he said he was a 'terrible' student. Which, depending on the context, is not racist. However he also said 'Laziness is a trait in blacks' which is definitely racist. How could you claim it is not?

VonZan

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The NY Times has a list for you.



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html


Although seeing as how you've just said him calling someone the n word would only "perhaps" convince you he harboured racist views, I'm not exactly sure how you define a racist.

That article is a piece of garbage. Look at the sources of some of these quotes. The authors have clearly made their judgement and poorly attempted to fit the narrative with non-racist examples and poorly sourced quotes to prove their point.

At least if you're going to call him racist back it up with veritable quotes and don't use poorly sourced material from a newspaper trying to sell 'news'. Surely if he was a racist there would be video evidence considering how much time he's spend in front of a camera being asked his opinion. Well?

everlast75

Where is that sticky???

Eric Cartman

relax carry on wrote: »

Eric any chance you could have a go at this one from yesterday. I know there's been a lot of posts since then.

I think what you have is a man in his mid 70s, who unlike most candidates wasnt a career politician and for 70 odd years was a self serving businessman who didnt have to watch his mouth for a very long time the way many of his opponents under political scrutiny since their 20s would have had to. You definitely have a narcassist who is used to getting what he wants and the role of salesman that he played for 70 years he dod that well.

I understand that the man, in his current capacity is liable for a lot more scrutiny than the average joe and that as he is flavour of the term his conduct merits more discussion than the past indiscretions of past presidents.

However I believe people can learn, grow and change with the times, keeping out black people in the 70s real estate market was very common in the time when redlining and other racist practices were a big thing , attitudes to women have evolved leaps and bounds even majorly over the last decade , attitudes to abortion are still a bit in the past.

I believe that you can see an evolution of his views, not as quickly as some would like, and a republican candidate is always going to harbour some things that may seem abhorrent in europe.

I personally agree with the 'muslim ban' , lower taxation, tighter immigration controls and a desire to tariff chinese manufacturing (not in a 'bring back the steel mill' kind of way, but assisting american jobs)

I think on his headline promises the man is delivering (whether you agree with those promises or not) , the way in which he speaks seems childish to us but I think he's going for a vernacular explaination and really speaking to uneducated working class americans who can often be confused by other politicians speaking.

I don't think the man is a hero, certainly not a perfect president , but I believe better than the alternative he shared a polling card with.

I think he's targeting working and middle class white americans and delivering them what they want, he's putting them first even at the frustration of minorities, LGBTQ people and immigrants , but he's a bit like ronseal 'does what it says on the tin' as much as ronseal is fence paint and the world wants the US president to paint picassos .

I think people are too quick to firstly invent and secondly believe every negative thing about him , in a european setting he wouldnt stand a chance but the US is a different ball game.

I think people like donald trump stand as a warning to world politicians that ignoring the whote working vote can lead to upsets.

I personally think politics should be done like business and he represents a lot of that.

Eric Cartman

looksee wrote: »

He didn't say Obama was a lazy student, he said he was a 'terrible' student. Which, depending on the context, is not racist. However he also said 'Laziness is a trait in blacks' which is definitely racist. How could you claim it is not?

but those two incidents were over 20 years apart , its not like he opened the conversation with 'blacks are lazy' and called Obama lazy at the second turn. Putting them together in an article makes it seem that way but thats of course what the author wanted.

batgoat

VonZan wrote: »

That article is a piece of garbage. Look at the sources of some of these quotes. The authors have clearly made their judgement and poorly attempted to fit the narrative with non-racist examples and poorly sourced quotes to prove their point.

At least if you're going to call him racist back it up with veritable quotes and don't use poorly sourced material from a newspaper trying to sell 'news'. Surely if he was a racist there would be video evidence considering how much time he's spend in front of a camera being asked his opinion. Well?

The sources look pretty fine after going through them. Sure, you can highlight what quotes are misrepresented?

relax carry on

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think what you have is a man in his mid 70s, who unlike most candidates wasnt a career politician and for 70 odd years was a self serving businessman who didnt have to watch his mouth for a very long time the way many of his opponents under political scrutiny since their 20s would have had to. You definitely have a narcassist who is used to getting what he wants and the role of salesman that he played for 70 years he dod that well.

I understand that the man, in his current capacity is liable for a lot more scrutiny than the average joe and that as he is flavour of the term his conduct merits more discussion than the past indiscretions of past presidents.

However I believe people can learn, grow and change with the times, keeping out black people in the 70s real estate market was very common in the time when redlining and other racist practices were a big thing , attitudes to women have evolved leaps and bounds even majorly over the last decade , attitudes to abortion are still a bit in the past.

I believe that you can see an evolution of his views, not as quickly as some would like, and a republican candidate is always going to harbour some things that may seem abhorrent in europe.

I personally agree with the 'muslim ban' , lower taxation, tighter immigration controls and a desire to tariff chinese manufacturing (not in a 'bring back the steel mill' kind of way, but assisting american jobs)

I think on his headline promises the man is delivering (whether you agree with those promises or not) , the way in which he speaks seems childish to us but I think he's going for a vernacular explaination and really speaking to uneducated working class americans who can often be confused by other politicians speaking.

I don't think the man is a hero, certainly not a perfect president , but I believe better than the alternative he shared a polling card with.

I think he's targeting working and middle class white americans and delivering them what they want, he's putting them first even at the frustration of minorities, LGBTQ people and immigrants , but he's a bit like ronseal 'does what it says on the tin' as much as ronseal is fence paint and the world wants the US president to paint picassos .

I think people are too quick to firstly invent and secondly believe every negative thing about him , in a european setting he wouldnt stand a chance but the US is a different ball game.

I think people like donald trump stand as a warning to world politicians that ignoring the whote working vote can lead to upsets.

I personally think politics should be done like business and he represents a lot of that.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Eric. Don't think I'll ever agree with your assessment of him but at least there's a rationale to your position. You are correct that in the last few decades, someone like Trump wouldn't have stood a chance in a European setting but I'm not so sure anymore.

qwerty ui op

Eric Cartman wrote: »

However I believe people can learn, grow and change with the times, keeping out black people in the 70s real estate market was very common in the time when redlining and other racist practices were a big thing , attitudes to women have evolved leaps and bounds even majorly over the last decade , attitudes to abortion are still a bit in the past.

In 2016 he said he still thinks the central park 5 are guilty how about you defend that.

Eric Cartman

relax carry on wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to reply Eric. Don't think I'll ever agree with your assessment of him but at least there's a rationale to your position. You are correct that in the last few decades, someone like Trump wouldn't have stood a chance in a European setting but I'm not so sure anymore.

If moderate parties/ candidates in Europe on the US followed 5 simple rules, I don't think trump/brexit/UKIP(Farage)/Le Penn etc.. would even stand a chance.

1) White straight men still matter, do not base your entire social policy on helping everyone but them
2) Grandiose Spending plans or tax increases do not win favour especially when the economy is booming.
3) You have to take seriously the terrorism and immigration concerns that natural born citizens have about muslims/islam , do not fob them off as xenophobic/ignorant/racist or they will turn to the parties that listen (despite those parties harbouring much worse ideas) (taking those concerns seriously doesn't necissarily mean ban them, but don't just shut the door on the topic)
4) You can't just play identity politics, stop looking for the first woman or first black etc..., look for the best candidate regardless of identity.
5) Broken promises by the party you voted for in the past hurt worse than the threat of kept promises from the party offering a change, no matter how awful that change may seem.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

but those two incidents were over 20 years apart , its not like he opened the conversation with 'blacks are lazy' and called Obama lazy at the second turn. Putting them together in an article makes it seem that way but thats of course what the author wanted.

So wait, low tax ..


You believe in trickle down economics that robbed the middle class Americans of their jobs, savings, stability and ability to buy homes is a good thing.

It's been demonstrably bad. There is no trickle down. The republican party are to blame for the jobs losses. Their mantra of low tax is for the rich only. It's taken actual jobs, guaranteed working hours and put middle America into contact low paying roles with no hours week to week. It's taken middle class wealth and transferred it directly into the pockets of the one percent and created the largest income inequality in the human history.


And you talk about low tax.




Laughable. Turkey's Christmas

Eric Cartman

qwerty ui op wrote: »

In 2016 he said he still thinks the central park 5 are guilty how about you defend that.

Absolutely not going to defend that. The article posted on the last page was literally the first time I had ever even heard of the case, reading wikipedia and 2 news articles on it its definitely the wrong call. Absolutely not making an excuse for it but I can't get around why a man would confess to it and all his mates just say 'yeah thats what happened' but I've never been arrested so wouldn't know. When Donald everyone originally believed they were guilty I would absolutely agree with his call for the death penalty for that kind of attack, Better police work would have prevented that entire injustice.

listermint wrote: »

So wait, low tax ..


You believe in trickle down economics that robbed the middle class Americans of their jobs, savings, stability and ability to buy homes is a good thing.

It's been demonstrably bad. There is no trickle down. The republican party are to blame for the jobs losses. Their mantra of low tax is for the rich only. It's taken actual jobs, guaranteed working hours and put middle America into contact low paying roles with no hours week to week. It's taken middle class wealth and transferred it directly into the pockets of the one percent and created the largest income inequality in the human history.


And you talk about low tax.




Laughable. Turkey's Christmas

Trickle down economics does work , low taxation benefits all , the change in the type of work we do and skills required caused 'income inequality' but that said, incomes don't necessarily need to be equal, this is a different topic for a different thread but I disagree with you completely.

borderlinemeath

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think what you have is a man in his mid 70s, who unlike most candidates wasnt a career politician and for 70 odd years was a self serving businessman who didnt have to watch his mouth for a very long time the way many of his opponents under political scrutiny since their 20s would have had to. You definitely have a narcassist who is used to getting what he wants and the role of salesman that he played for 70 years he dod that well.

You have a man who inherited a business that has bullied his way through life. When under pressure from lawsuits - either business or the many women who he has allegedly sexually assaulted - he instructs his legal team to throw their clout at it to make the issue "go away".

I understand that the man, in his current capacity is liable for a lot more scrutiny than the average joe and that as he is flavour of the term his conduct merits more discussion than the past indiscretions of past presidents.

However I believe people can learn, grow and change with the times, keeping out black people in the 70s real estate market was very common in the time when redlining and other racist practices were a big thing , attitudes to women have evolved leaps and bounds even majorly over the last decade , attitudes to abortion are still a bit in the past.

His attitudes towards minorities and women still stink. You only have to listen to him or read his twitter to see that. His attitude to abortion has only changed because he's aligned with the GOP. There's tapes where he told Marla Maples to "take care of it" when she told him she was pregnant with Tiffany.

I believe that you can see an evolution of his views, not as quickly as some would like, and a republican candidate is always going to harbour some things that may seem abhorrent in europe.

I personally agree with the 'muslim ban' , lower taxation, tighter immigration controls and a desire to tariff chinese manufacturing (not in a 'bring back the steel mill' kind of way, but assisting american jobs)

I think on his headline promises the man is delivering (whether you agree with those promises or not) , the way in which he speaks seems childish to us but I think he's going for a vernacular explaination and really speaking to uneducated working class americans who can often be confused by other politicians speaking.

His dialogue and speech is very limited. As if he had zero aptitude in school/college and has sailed his way through life by getting his yes men to do the donkey work. It's been well documented that he refuses to read anything in the White House and all briefings have to be issued in bullet point and littered with his name to keep his attention. The verbal diarrhea that he spouts at rallies is like watching Father Teds Golden Cleric acceptance speech. Is that really the type of man you want leading a powerful nation?

I don't think the man is a hero, certainly not a perfect president , but I believe better than the alternative he shared a polling card with.

I think he's targeting working and middle class white americans and delivering them what they want, he's putting them first even at the frustration of minorities, LGBTQ people and immigrants , but he's a bit like ronseal 'does what it says on the tin' as much as ronseal is fence paint and the world wants the US president to paint picassos .

I think people are too quick to firstly invent and secondly believe every negative thing about him , in a european setting he wouldnt stand a chance but the US is a different ball game.

So how would you feel if you were part of a minority group?



From the outset it looks as if he's targeting working class but he's looking after number 1, and the top 1% who have been the main benefactors of the tax cut. The working class will pay when the deficit kicks in.

I think people like donald trump stand as a warning to world politicians that ignoring the whote working vote can lead to upsets.

I personally think politics should be done like business and he represents a lot of that.

Trump and business. The multiple bankrupt who walks away from all his failures and blames everybody else. Really? Don't forget he bankrupted casinos. That's how bad at business he is.

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Trickle down economics does work...

Of course it does: for the people on top doing the trickling. Anyone in a lower income bracket that believes trickle down will benefit them is - there's no better phrase for it - a useful idiot.

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course it does: for the people on top doing the trickling. Anyone in a lower income bracket that believes trickle down will benefit them is - there's no better phrase for it - a useful idiot.

How do you explain the that atarting a business, access to finance has never been easier, More millionaires and billionaires are being made than ever before ?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Trickle down economics works as intended? You should call the IMF, they must have it wrong so...

StringerBell

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How do you explain the that atarting a business, access to finance has never been easier, More millionaires and billionaires are being made than ever before ?

The entire global economy has been rising for a number of years, even here in Ireland it is not difficult to start a business and get access to finance. Government initiatives/grants along with some innovations have helped.There has been more millionaires and billionaires made year on year as the divide between the rich and the poor grows. This has been going on for years. Finance was very easy to get hold of not so long ago, how are you quantifying that it has never been easier to get?

Natural advancements in the industry? A return to poor lending practise? The amount of pre approved loans I hadn't even applied for came through my letter box in the not so distant past, sub prime mortgage, 0% finance with little to no proof of ability to repay, poor LTV ratio standards etc etc etc For an Irish person the amount of credit available in the Celtic Tiger years surely shows the cycle of access to finance?

We are heading for another crash due to certain economic factors, some of which are being accelerated by government policy (in the US) and given the amount of national debt now as opposed to when heading into the last one (even in Ireland) the next could be and probably will be considerably worse.

Trickle down economics can work in theory, just like communism.

Practice however is a completely different story, as history has shown.

VonZan

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course it does: for the people on top doing the trickling. Anyone in a lower income bracket that believes trickle down will benefit them is - there's no better phrase for it - a useful idiot.

Well the 1% are naturally going to create the wealth. You criticise trickle down economics but what is your alternative? The problem is largely down to low taxation as there should be a larger transfer of wealth back to the state.

It's very easy to criticise.

rossie1977

Trickle down economics has never worked in any real life situation.

It's been a disaster in the US where the top 1% now own the majority of the wealth thanks to Reagan's and Bush Jr's massive tax cuts.

Productivity has seen a huge spike but wages have flatlined..if trickle down worked then wages should have seen a big increase



The top 0.1% went from owning 7% of total wealth in the us in 1980 to 22% of all wealth by 2012



You can the effect the Reagan and Bush tax cuts have had here especially in comparison to the EU nations where wealth distribution hasn't changed that much since 1980

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How do you explain the that atarting a business, access to finance has never been easier, More millionaires and billionaires are being made than ever before ?

I actually can't take you seriously. You believe it's a good thing that the bulk of the productivity is better placed in the pockets and foreign accounts of a tiny few. That's not me being socialist. It's literally taking money out of the system.

It's actually one of the core reasons Trump got elected in the first place.

It's the economy stupid. Less stability in people's jobs. Less wages. It's not really rocket science. And you cheerlead this ? Mind boggling

listermint

rossie1977 wrote: »

Trickle down economics has never worked in any real life situation.

It's been a disaster in the US where the top 1% now own the majority of the wealth thanks to Reagan's and Bush Jr's massive tax cuts.

Productivity has seen a huge spike but wages have flatlined..if trickle down worked then wages should have seen a big increase



The top 0.1% went from owning 7% of total wealth in the us in 1980 to 22% of all wealth by 2012



You can the effect the Reagan and Bush tax cuts have had here especially in comparison to the EU nations where wealth distribution hasn't changed that much since 1980

That first graph is extraordinary.



When it's displayed like that.

Leroy42

Isn't trickle down based on the assumption that only the wealthy can produce wealth and ideas?

Where is the rationale behind that idea?

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

Isn't trickle down based on the assumption that only the wealthy can produce wealth and ideas?

Where is the rationale behind that idea?

I think it goes like this. If you give the wealthy enough tax breaks that it feels to them like they wouldn't be any worse off if they invested in something then they may be inclined to invest.

It's clearly worked as it's just made them even more wealthy since the crash. Obscenely in many cases.

Rhineshark

Leroy42 wrote: »

Isn't trickle down based on the assumption that only the wealthy can produce wealth and ideas?

Where is the rationale behind that idea?

The rationale, such as it is, is that if you help the worthy (wealthy) members of society, they will invest in job-making enterprises to employ the plebs. This will make lots of money for other worthy members of society (rich shareholders) who vote for the "party of business" (Republicans).

Also some bibbling about Adam Smith, Keynes and the free hand of the market.

circadian

That first graph is slowly trending towards slave labour. Or at least a modern iteration of it. Many people, especially in the US are already caught in the trickle down trap.

Work two or three jobs just to keep food on the table and a roof over heads. Massive productivity for little gain and certainly nothing to save away.

listermint

circadian wrote: »

That first graph is slowly trending towards slave labour. Or at least a modern iteration of it. Many people, especially in the US are already caught in the trickle down trap.

Work two or three jobs just to keep food on the table and a roof over heads. Massive productivity for little gain and certainly nothing to save away.

Wonder if fox news ran with these kinds of daily stats what we'd see

FrostyJack

listermint wrote: »

Wonder if fox news ran with these kinds of daily stats what we'd see

You would see the Teaparty out on the streets in a rage, oh wait the current president is white...

Penn

Rhineshark wrote: »

The rationale, such as it is, is that if you help the worthy (wealthy) members of society, they will invest in job-making enterprises to employ the plebs. This will make lots of money for other worthy members of society (rich shareholders) who vote for the "party of business" (Republicans).

Also some bibbling about Adam Smith, Keynes and the free hand of the market.

Yeah, look at all Trump's money that has trickled down to his workers over the years...

Trickle down economics does not work. It's a fantasy put forward by those who will benefit from it the most, who will siphon off some of the profits they make to increase wages of those below them to try and show that it works, while retaining the majority of the profits for themselves.

Harika

Some interesting development: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201809251068302929-jcpoa-agreement-mogherini/
As EU companies are worried that they could be cut off the international systems to transfer funds when trading with Iran, the EU now introduces their own financial vehicle to trade with Iran. That is another step away from the US hegemony and their global domination in this area, as it should be easy to then expand it globally.
The cancelling of the agreement with Iran now backfires, but I doubt Trump understands that this doesn't help the US in the long run.

Leroy42

Penn wrote: »

Trickle down economics does not work. It's a fantasy put forward by those who will benefit from it the most, who will siphon off some of the profits they make to increase wages of those below them to try and show that it works, while retaining the majority of the profits for themselves.

Exactly. Inherent in the model is that the less well off cannot generate money and jobs. That giving €100 to a rich person will give a better multiplier than given the same €100 to a less well off person.

But is there any actual evidence that this is the case? Certainly the backbone of most (if not all) economies are not the very large companies but the multitude of smaller companies. Sole Traders, family business's etc.

There is also the reality that giving €100 to a less well off person will see it spent within the economy (food, clothing etc) whilst a portion of a wealthy persons money will always be spent outside of the economy.

Even Trump accepts the basic premise as he continually mentioned Consumer sentiment getting bigger, leading to increased spending, more jobs etc as a result of payrises. Certainly any form of tax cuts for the rich should be tied directly to actually bringing in new jobs.