Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

batgoat

RobertKK wrote: »

Alleged would have been a better word as none of us know.

The question is if Kavanaugh was the rapist, nobody is questioning if she was raped outside of The_Donald crew. In terms of the credibility of him being the rapist, it looks incredibly likely. Including the fact that there's more than one woman making such an allegation.

Kavanaugh is a judge, he has been incapable of being honest under oath. This is a fact. A "devil's triangle" is not a drinking game, the 4th of July thing was misrepresented, the Renata thing was lied about by him... But none of this raises any red flags for you... Plus he doesn't want it investigated...

Akrasia

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not Kavanugh’s job to tell the FBI to investigate. Why would an innocent person want an investigation based on hearsay?
Look at RTwho put out a program on national TV accusing a priest of sexual assault while on the missions. They were all on the steps of the court house when RTE agreed they had lied. It took the supposed victim to say it was not true.
In this case the supposed victim is pushing it and why would anyone want to leave themselves open to what will come down to simply guessing?

The allegations are already out there, the only way to clear his name is to have the allegations investigated and if there is no evidence, he can always say that the allegations have been fully investigated and that's enough for most people.

FreudianSlippers

batgoat wrote: »

The question is if Kavanaugh was the rapist, nobody is questioning if she was raped outside of The_Donald crew. In terms of the credibility of him being the rapist, it looks incredibly likely. Including the fact that there's more than one woman making such an allegation.

Kavanaugh is a judge, he has been incapable of being honest under oath. This is a fact. A "devil's triangle" is not a drinking game, the 4th of July thing was misrepresented, the Renata thing was lied about by him... But none of this raises any red flags for you... Plus he doesn't want it investigated...

... his sudden shift in opinion on lie detector tests, his reluctance for an FBI investigation - the list goes on!

The fact that we're even still having this discussion is a serious issue with regard to the viability of democracy and rationality in the USA and IMHO the Western world.

Akrasia

batgoat wrote: »

The question is if Kavanaugh was the rapist, nobody is questioning if she was raped outside of The_Donald crew. In terms of the credibility of him being the rapist, it looks incredibly likely. Including the fact that there's more than one woman making such an allegation.

Kavanaugh is a judge, he has been incapable of being honest under oath. This is a fact. A "devil's triangle" is not a drinking game, the 4th of July thing was misrepresented, the Renata thing was lied about by him... But none of this raises any red flags for you... Plus he doesn't want it investigated...

She wasn't raped, she managed to lock herself in a bathroom before any rape happened. She was sexually assaulted (allegedly)

But saying it was only 'attempted rape' isn't exactly a defence of his character

seamus

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yeah Bill Clinton got impeached.

Over allegations of consensual sexual activity.

Always worth remembering that point. Bill gets accused of receiving a blowjob from an enthusiastic intern and the Republicans go crazy.

High-ranking Republicans, including the President, get accused of rape and sexual assault and the Reps look the other way.

Penn

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not Kavanugh’s job to tell the FBI to investigate. Why would an innocent person want an investigation based on hearsay?

To prove their innocence. As Sen.Harris said yesterday; Ford asked for an FBI investigation. Kavanaugh has not. Ford took a lie detector test. Kavanaugh won't. Ford wants witnesses to be questioned. Kavanaugh does not.

Even the Republican's prosecutor who was questioning Ford yesterday outlined in her last bit of questioning to Ford that interviewing victims of sexual assault is normally done in a more conversational manner, allowing the victim to tell their story and what they remember as it helps with aiding memory and recollection, and that it's not done like it was done yesterday, with chunks of questions over 5-minutes, switching from topic to topic.

What happened yesterday and the framework in which it happened is not designed to prove either side right or wrong, its purpose was simply to hear both sides. Whether he's confirmed now or not neither proves guilt nor innocence. An FBI investigation wouldn't prove guilt nor innocence either, however it would result in a far more in-depth and robust review of all the testimonies, statements and facts in a non-public manner by trained investigators who would be able to offer suggestions to the Senate Committee based on same, thereby informing Senators votes.

If Kavanaugh is confirmed now, the stink of this will follow his appointment for years to come. Had an FBI investigation taken place which recommended that he is most likely innocent, while some still wouldn't have agreed with the outcome, that stink would have been greatly reduced.

The simple fact is, even if he is innocent, the Republicans don't want an FBI investigation into it because they need to get him confirmed ASAP, and an investigation would take too long. If I was Kavanaugh and I 100% believed myself to be innocent and that there was no evidence which could possibly say I might be guilty, I'd be the one asking the FBI to investigate in order to clear my name. I'd be willing to take a lie detector test. I'd be asking witnesses who can corroborate my statements to testify rather than just issue sworn statements. I'd be doing whatever I could to prove my innocence in as much as is practical. Kavanaugh is doing none of that, because the Republicans need to push him through too quickly for that to happen.

Ford wants all of those things because she is so sure that she is telling the truth. Kavanaugh, a judge who fully understands things like burden of proof and the probable lack of evidence Ford actually has to back up her side of events if he was innocent, wants none of those things.

Igotadose

seamus wrote: »

Over allegations of consensual sexual activity.

Always worth remembering that point. Bill gets accused of receiving a blowjob from an enthusiastic intern and the Republicans go crazy.

High-ranking Republicans, including the President, get accused of rape and sexual assault and the Reps look the other way.

Sorta; they got Bill on perjury and obstruction of justice. Perjury in the Paula Jones case, obstruction in relation to that case and his affair with Lewinsky. Sordid stuff, really, but it was what it was.

Got to say, Ford sounds credible, Kavanaugh sounds like a guy with much to hide. Lindsay Graham ought to be the one they're impeaching, what a grandstander.

Igotadose

RobertKK wrote: »

Are you going to claim that the Democrats are not pushing this?

If Bill Clinton was there yesterday, the same Democrats would continue to dismiss the women who say the former president raped and/or sexually abused them, and it would be the Republicans pushing it.

That is what we got yesterday, and Kavanaugh the political football.

As always, Bill Clinton whataboutery. Hey, he was in fact investigated by Kenneth Starr and Brett Kavanaugh, brought up on charges and tried.

Just want the equivalent for Kavanaugh - full investigation, perhaps a WH special counsel (imagine.... a special counsel appointed by the Trump admin to investigate someone Trump likes...) to understand just what kind of person Kavanaugh is. I'm finding I like the idea of impeaching him from his *current* position based on his past behavior, let alone never letting him near the SCOTUS. Trump can find another just as opposed to women's rights, the tGOP has that as their basic platform and it's the tune to which the GOP dances.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

The Republicans hope to push through his nomination before the midterms, that's been their game. They do not give a damn about the allegations, they want him nominated. Their play is very simple, most people know they are in trouble leading up to the midterms, otherwise there would be no rush to push this through.

The judiciary committee can put a time limit on the FBI investigation. Be it a week or ten days for example. After that time, they can review and make a decision to go ahead with the vote.

manual_man wrote: »

The FBI investigation argument is complete bluff and nonsense. The Dems hope to delay and obstruct this til after the midterms, that's always been their game. Going by all the stunts pulled so far, if such an investigation were to be agreed and go ahead, it could very well be dragged out til after the midterms. The play is very simple, most people know it but not all will acknowledge it.

This has been a complete farce for me. I think he will be confirmed and not only that I think more will come out in coming weeks that will damage the Dems ahead of the midterms. Their increasing desperation and complete lowering of any kind of standards (they can blame Trump for this but hey, personal responsibility) is an absolute disgrace and increasingly more people have had enough and are walking away from their politics of division and BS.

Pelvis

It's amazing the details you miss when you listen to the hearing live. When questioned by Dianne Feinstein, Kavanaugh says he's "not even in DC on the weekends in the summer of '82", among other testimony implying he didn't drink on weekdays as he's too busy with other things, working out. going to movies etc. But of course this brings us back to the entry in his calendar for the 1st July, which was a Thursday, and later testimony under questioning from Booker confirms he did drink on weekdays.

This is a prime example of why scheduling a vote before any testimony is even heard is frankly ridiculous. People need to be given time to scrutinize his testimony.

Jelle1880

manual_man wrote: »

The FBI investigation argument is complete bluff and nonsense. The Dems hope to delay and obstruct this til after the midterms, that's always been their game. Going by all the stunts pulled so far, if such an investigation were to be agreed and go ahead, it could very well be dragged out til after the midterms. The play is very simple, most people know it but not all will acknowledge it.

This has been a complete farce for me. I think he will be confirmed and not only that I think more will come out in coming weeks that will damage the Dems ahead of the midterms. Their increasing desperation and complete lowering of any kind of standards (they can blame Trump for this but hey, personal responsibility) is an absolute disgrace and increasingly more people have had enough and are walking away from their politics of division and BS.

Wrong.

Everybody has already said that an FBI investigation could be wrapped up in a week or 10 days or so.

Jelle1880

mcmoustache wrote: »

The American Bar Association have called for his nomination to be delayed while a Jesuit magazine has called for his nomination to be withdrawn despite publicly supporting him previously. I guess the liberals must have got to them too.

Graham and Kavanaugh were so proud of the ABA yesterday too... :pac:

Captain Obvious

One of his female friends from college has come forward to say his portrayal of himself in college is complete fabrication.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upxbLT5iP70

pixelburp

Bit exhausted by yesterdays insanity: I believe Ford to be telling the truth; with his opening statement alone Kavanaugh revealed himself as too partisan and behaviour a little beyond what you'd expect of a federal judge - nevermind the Supreme Court; yet as fascinatingly obscene as this whole process has been, I feel a deep sadness and pity that American politics has come to this. I do believe Kavaunagh is a poor choice for the SC, but divorced of it all it's hard not to look at this circus and see a country's politics in severe - terminal? - decline. What's worse is that I still suspect the GOP will ram through the nomination.

Ultimately, Donald Trump is ephemeral; yes he may leave his mark, but the hot chaotic mess the system finds itself in predates the current President and will outlive him. He's every problem writ large, a symptom not the disease. This set of hearings has demonstrated how broken and abnormal the system is, in all its melodramatic, grandstanding, archaic glory. Octogenarian 'lifer' senators hassling sexual assault victims on live TV, in support of a judge who in turn will receive a for-life appointment if approved - all with a bureaucratic haste that'd make a Black Friday shopper blush. Cable news slathers and rants, each side taking the side of sanctimonious outrage, while social media stirs the pot with an undereducated voter base and obvious manipulation from all side. I'd be lying if I didn't admit finding the rightwing pundits more objectionable than the other lot, but even they are coloured by this New Normal.

US National Politics is so demonstrably broken. It's a horrible, obscene monster of governance as entertainment, albeit with a standing army to ensure its position on the World stage has to be taken seriously; a troubled teenager with a loaded gun and the rest of us laughs from a distance, but from behind the sofa.

So difficult not to indulge in trite clichés, but what else is there when the nomination of a Supreme Court judge - arguably the most sober of appointments you could think of - descends so thoroughly into the gutter?

Dohnjoe

Good post there Pixelburp

Water John

It all goes to his credibility. in this job interview. Yes heard that lady on Cuomo last night.
He has been untruthful, under oath, to the Senate Committee. He doesn't want a further investigation which would take less than 1 week. The obvious thing is to question the third party present in the room by the FBI. That's a no brainer.
If there was anything fictitious about Ford's testimony she wouldn't have put Judge in the room.
That a nominee for that position could go on a rant like he did yesterday alone excludes him and it be seen by some as a good performance.
The Dems will have him impeached whenever they take control, if there is a scintilla of evidence, no doubt about that. They will wait in the long grass.

TomOnBoard

everlast75 wrote: »

Putting aside that I am pro-choice, and I am putting that aside, I found his initial performance before the Senate suspect and my gut reaction would be not to confirm him, if I had that choice.

Moving on then to yesterday, there are a series of questions I believe strike to the heart of the issue.

1) Do you believe her. If the answer is yes, either
a) She is insane and believes it, even thought it didn't happen
b) It happened, but it wasn't him
c) He did it.

I don't think she is insane. I don't think it was mistaken identity. I believe therefore that he did it. Nothing he said or did made me think anything to the contrary.

Everything else is irrelevant. Whether she is Democrat or not. Whether the Democrats sought her out. All of it - ALL OF IT - is irrelevant. He should not be nominated at this moment in time.

Just because it suits the Democrats that this happens to scupper his nomination does not mean that it should go ahead as a result.

I believe that there should be an FBI investigation and that Mark Judge should be interviewed. He is a corroborating witness and a literal witness to the complaint.

The next logical step is to ask yourself, if he did it, whether you believe he should be confirmed regardless of that fact. I don't

Well put!

However, your c) has 2 options:
c(i) he did it, knows he did it, and is blatantly lying about it.
Or
c(ii) he did it, but has no memory of it.

After watching all of yesterday's proceedings c(ii) is the only scenario that makes sense.

TomOnBoard

mcmoustache wrote: »

The American Bar Association have called for his nomination to be delayed while a Jesuit magazine has called for his nomination to be withdrawn despite publicly supporting him previously. I guess the liberals must have got to them too.

Well done the ABA!!!

Captain Obvious

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Well put!

However, your c) has 2 options:
c(i) he did it, knows he did it, and is blatantly lying about it.
Or
c(ii) he did it, but has no memory of it.

After watching all of yesterday's proceedings c(ii) is the only scenario that makes sense.

Except he has excluded that himself with his virgin pleasant drinker defence. What he should have done was say that he sometimes drank to excess and had sex but he always knew the line not to cross. Instead he gave a false account of himself in college and expected everyone to believe that the angry, belligerent, emotional wreck before them was a nice guy when drunk.

qwerty ui op

After Ford's hearing there was only one place for Kavanaugh to hide and he made a beeline for that cover - His daughters.

If he had no family or two adult boys it would have been a different hearing, his statement was an emotional build-up to the nighttime prayers part, he made the correct calculation that the general public would have a lot of sympathy for his daughters. If you take his tears and family out of it, Kavanaugh hasn't a leg to stand on.

He believes something happened her but it wasn't him:rolleyes:

If someone you knew from secondary school hurt you and the incident had even a minor effect on your life, not a hope you would mix the guy/girl up with someone else, crazy stuff.

oscarBravo

MadYaker wrote: »

Didn't some politician say that if you shot Ted Cruz dead on the floor of the senate and your trial was in the senate nobody would convict you?

Not merely "some politician", but the one and only, the inestimable, Senator Lindsey Graham.

Captain Obvious

Donald supporters are all over Graham today. I wonder could he be looking forward to 2020 Presidential election

Zubeneschamali

TomOnBoard wrote: »

c(i) he did it, knows he did it, and is blatantly lying about it.
Or
c(ii) he did it, but has no memory of it.

Give the stuff we know he is blatantly lying about under oath like his drinking and his yearbook entrys, c(i) looks perfectly credible to me.

everlast75

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not merely "some politician", but the one and only, the inestimable, Senator Lindsey Graham.

the same Lindsey Graham that went on The Daily Show a while back and when asked if he would prefer Ted Cruz or Donald Trump to be President, replied that question was like asking if you would prefer to be poisoned or shot in the head.

Thargor

Someone on Capitol Hill tried to turn the Devils Triangle into a drinking game on Wikipedia after he lied about it, what did they think the chances of that working were?

https://thenextweb.com/insider/2018/09/27/devils-triangle-wikipedia-entry-edited-by-anonymous-member-of-congress-after-kavanaugh-hearing/?amp=1

everlast75

pixelburp wrote: »

Bit exhausted by yesterdays insanity: I believe Ford to be telling the truth; with his opening statement alone Kavanaugh revealed himself as too partisan and behaviour a little beyond what you'd expect of a federal judge - nevermind the Supreme Court; yet as fascinatingly obscene as this whole process has been, I feel a deep sadness and pity that American politics has come to this. I do believe Kavaunagh is a poor choice for the SC, but divorced of it all it's hard not to look at this circus and see a country's politics in severe - terminal? - decline. What's worse is that I still suspect the GOP will ram through the nomination.

Ultimately, Donald Trump is ephemeral; yes he may leave his mark, but the hot chaotic mess the system finds itself in predates the current President and will outlive him. He's every problem writ large, a symptom not the disease. This set of hearings has demonstrated how broken and abnormal the system is, in all its melodramatic, grandstanding, archaic glory. Octogenarian 'lifer' senators hassling sexual assault victims on live TV, in support of a judge who in turn will receive a for-life appointment if approved - all with a bureaucratic haste that'd make a Black Friday shopper blush. Cable news slathers and rants, each side taking the side of sanctimonious outrage, while social media stirs the pot with an undereducated voter base and obvious manipulation from all side. I'd be lying if I didn't admit finding the rightwing pundits more objectionable than the other lot, but even they are coloured by this New Normal.

US National Politics is so demonstrably broken. It's a horrible, obscene monster of governance as entertainment, albeit with a standing army to ensure its position on the World stage has to be taken seriously; a troubled teenager with a loaded gun and the rest of us laughs from a distance, but from behind the sofa.

So difficult not to indulge in trite clichés, but what else is there when the nomination of a Supreme Court judge - arguably the most sober of appointments you could think of - descends so thoroughly into the gutter?

The sad part about it is that it will (understandably) make people disconnect, or turn off from politics.

And there is only one thing worse than a politician, and that's a politician who nobody is watching.

Gbear

pixelburp wrote: »

Ultimately, Donald Trump is ephemeral; yes he may leave his mark, but the hot chaotic mess the system finds itself in predates the current President and will outlive him. He's every problem writ large, a symptom not the disease. This set of hearings has demonstrated how broken and abnormal the system is, in all its melodramatic, grandstanding, archaic glory. Octogenarian 'lifer' senators hassling sexual assault victims on live TV, in support of a judge who in turn will receive a for-life appointment if approved - all with a bureaucratic haste that'd make a Black Friday shopper blush. Cable news slathers and rants, each side taking the side of sanctimonious outrage, while social media stirs the pot with an undereducated voter base and obvious manipulation from all side. I'd be lying if I didn't admit finding the rightwing pundits more objectionable than the other lot, but even they are coloured by this New Normal.

US National Politics is so demonstrably broken. It's a horrible, obscene monster of governance as entertainment, albeit with a standing army to ensure its position on the World stage has to be taken seriously; a troubled teenager with a loaded gun and the rest of us laughs from a distance, but from behind the sofa.

While I don't mean to paint both sides as equivalent, and I believe the Republican party, in their shameless pursuit of a neo-feudal state, to be the most dangerous current existential threat to Western Democracy, the failure by the Democrats to fix the systemic issues in the US political system are sustaining the environment that allow the Republican party to continue to thrive despite their policies being completely unrepresentative of the country's population.

It's the same with Labour in the UK. Yes, they oppose Tory policy, but they're not willing to do anything about the voting system that allows their unrepresentative politics to keep getting control of the country, because that system allows them to comfortably hurl from the ditch and mostly avoid responsibility.

It's like a mixture of Stockholm Syndrome and turkeys not wanting to vote for Christmas. Individual candidates might lose out, so they're not just ambivalent, but hostile to measures that might ultimately advance their agenda at personal cost.

If the Democrats ever regain the sort of complete control that the Republicans currently hold over government and they don't address the fundamental problems that allow partisan politics to impact the function of government the way they do - partisan control of redrawing districts, unlimited terms for representatives, FPTP voting in all of their electoral processes, then it's just going to be a matter of time before this same shambles repeats itself, and a country can only be put through the ringer so many times before it collapses.

jooksavage

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Donald supporters are all over Graham today. I wonder could he be looking forward to 2020 Presidential election

Not a chance. There's too much innuendo about his sexuality - he'd never make it out of Republican primaries.

Call Me Jimmy

There should be a lot of victims and perpetrators out there if we are tallying up the Avenatti accusation. That is the one of any that could possibly have a conclusion - assuming you haven't read the statement and thought that it's nonsensical. Someone could come out of the woodwork and confirm the 'spiked punch' part of it at least.

In terms of Fords accusation and the second accusation I don't see there being a possible conclusion even after an FBI investigation so they'll be left up in the air for eternity. Then I think there was another completely anonymous one which I shudder to think some people give credence to until there is some substance to it.

Even I am swayed by more than one accusation even if it is spurious but if we are counting them all then we all should expect some damning information very very soon.

Akrasia

jooksavage wrote: »

Not a chance. There's too much innuendo about his sexuality - he'd never make it out of Republican primaries.

Republicans have no problem with gay people getting elected as long as they pretend to not be gay and are happy to persecute gay people if called upon to do so, just like the evangelicals have no problem with serial womanisers, adulterers who have procured abortions in the past as long as they promise to overturn roe v wade and put people like Kavanaugh onto the Supreme Court