Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

everlast75

Apparently there is much reaction to the tweet to shut down the investigation


https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/1024654912385425409?s=19

notobtuse

robinph wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

What is the story here?  Somebody says a child died, but can't provide any proof?

If it did happen it's sad. But just another reason why you shouldn't drag your children across the boarder, when you know that they will be separated from you.   If it did happen fire the person who was supposed to be watching this child and be done with it.  Then BUILD THE WALL!

Allowing children to die because their parents dared to try and find a better life for them is not how a civilised society behaves. To try an make excuses for that behaviour from a government is disgusting.

I said if it happened it was sad.  But parents shouldn’t be bringing children into the US illegally.  Perhaps Ireland can take them all in.  Wouldn't that be the civilized thing to do?  And I scoff at the selected outrage of these things, used to make Trump look bad in any way, shape or form, IMO.  Do you or anyone here do what is necessary to curb modern day slavery throughout the world?  I doubt it.  If ya’ll would you’d have to give up such things as chocolate, electronic devices including cell phones, cannabis, rubber, most clothing, palm oil, knock-off handbags, diamonds, shrimp and pornography.  But we don't talk about those things or curb our lifestyle because it would hurt us personally, IMO.

Igotadose

notobtuse wrote: »

What is the story here?  Somebody says a child died, but can't provide any proof?

If it did happen it's sad. But just another reason why you shouldn't drag your children across the boarder, when you know that they will be separated from you.   If it did happen fire the person who was supposed to be watching this child and be done with it.  Then BUILD THE WALL!

Umm, the policy wasn't in place till recently (and no longer is). So, you don't KNOW you'll be separated from your child. Prior to the brief period this policy was in place (Note: I could be wrong, for all I know it's still going on and the news hasn't gone on yet,) this was NOT the policy of the USG.

Someone's guilty of negligent manslaughter here. Easy conviction, find the person responsible. This is the US, after all, rule of law prevails.

Igotadose

notobtuse wrote: »

I said if it happened it was sad.  But parents shouldn’t be bringing children into the US illegally.  Perhaps Ireland can take them all in.  Wouldn't that be the civilized thing to do?  And I scoff at the selected outrage of these things, used to make Trump look bad in any way, shape or form, IMO.  Do you or anyone here do what is necessary to curb modern day slavery throughout the world?  I doubt it.  If ya’ll would you’d have to give up such things as chocolate, electronic devices including cell phones, cannabis, rubber, most clothing, palm oil, knock-off handbags, diamonds, shrimp and pornography.  But we don't talk about those things or curb our lifestyle because it would hurt us personally, IMO.

You don't understand selected outrage. This is easy - there's endless things to be outraged about with Trump. This is one of many. Nice whataboutery attempt though, you don't really know what the EU is doing in these areas.

robinph

notobtuse wrote: »

I said if it happened it was sad.  But parents shouldn’t be bringing children into the US illegally.  Perhaps Ireland can take them all in.  Wouldn't that be the civilized thing to do?  And I scoff at the selected outrage of these things, used to make Trump look bad in any way, shape or form, IMO.  Do you or anyone here do what is necessary to curb modern day slavery throughout the world?  I doubt it.  If ya’ll would you’d have to give up such things as chocolate, electronic devices including cell phones, cannabis, rubber, most clothing, palm oil, knock-off handbags, diamonds, shrimp and pornography.  But we don't talk about those things or curb our lifestyle because it would hurt us personally, IMO.

Don't change the topic onto some other nonsense.

Stick to trying to defend the indefensible and explain to us how it is acceptable for a state to allow for children in their care to die and then to blame it on the parents that the state forcibly separated from the children.

Stallingrad

I don’t want to get personal as there is no point. The issue with Trump supporters is the stuff they deem acceptable in a person, never mind a leader. The lying, the infidelity, the casual racism, the bombast and bluster, the willingness to inflame and divide within his own country, the misogyny, the bullying, the flip flopping, his narcissism, and on it goes. If you support Trump you are saying these qualities are acceptable, not only in a person, but in their leader.

These are not qualities one would instill in their children or accept in a friend, but for reasons I will never understand Trump supporters tolerate them in the figurehead of their country. The Presidency and America, once admired and respected, has been horribly damaged.

dr.fuzzenstein

notobtuse wrote: »

I said if it happened it was sad.  But parents shouldn’t be bringing children into the US illegally.  Perhaps Ireland can take them all in.  Wouldn't that be the civilized thing to do?  And I scoff at the selected outrage of these things, used to make Trump look bad in any way, shape or form, IMO.  Do you or anyone here do what is necessary to curb modern day slavery throughout the world?  I doubt it.  If ya’ll would you’d have to give up such things as chocolate, electronic devices including cell phones, cannabis, rubber, most clothing, palm oil, knock-off handbags, diamonds, shrimp and pornography.  But we don't talk about those things or curb our lifestyle because it would hurt us personally, IMO.

Well, if the US didn't destabilise the Middle East through illegal invasions, there wouldn't be any refugees.
The US should pay the EU several billion dollars as compensation for having to put up millions of refugees displaed by US aggression.
THEN we'll talk about the fcuking mess the US has caused in middle and sout America through their idiotic, agressive meddling over the decades.
You know if the US didn't sh*t on the rest of the world, there wouldn't BE as many refugees.
But all you guys know is to bust in there with your size 13s, trample everything and then fcuking whine why the world hates you.
OK, I'll edit the thick part, because it's against standards to say that.
But honestly, do you guys enjoy being regarded as religious, militant extremists, extremely ignorant, loud and violent?

notobtuse

UsedToWait wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

What is the story here?  Somebody says a child died, but can't provide any proof?

If it did happen it's sad. But just another reason why you shouldn't drag your children across the boarder, when you know that they will be separated from you.   If it did happen fire the person who was supposed to be watching this child and be done with it.  Then BUILD THE WALL!

If you don't mind me asking - I think you mentioned you're based in the USA.
Are you originally from Ireland, or why are you drawn to this board to push the Trump agenda?

My mother was born and raised in Ireland.  She was still an Irish citizen at the time I was born in the US and therefore according to Irish law I am afforded Irish citizenship.  I also have family living in Galway and they participate here, though not in politics.

jooksavage

notobtuse wrote: »

What is the story here? Somebody says a child died, but can't provide any proof?

If it did happen it's sad. But just another reason why you shouldn't drag your children across the boarder, when you know that they will be separated from you. If it did happen fire the person who was supposed to be watching this child and be done with it. Then BUILD THE WALL!

I'm still amazed that people think that rhetorical diarrhea like "the wall" actually has a chance of becoming reality or that it would be a solution to anything. If the Wall is such an obvious a perfect fix, why wasn't it built before now? Why haven't experts been publishing white papers on it for decades?


Malcolm Gladwell did a podcast recently about Leonard Chapman's time in the immigration service in the 1970s. He's the one that implemented what became today's "hard" border infrastructure. Before him, the "soft", porous border meant that 85% of Mexicans who went to the US returned home within 12 months. When the hard border was enforced, that "circular migration" stopped and instead of returning home in a few months, the migrants (overwhelmingly young men) stayed put down roots on the US side of the border, started families or arranged for their families to join them. While a certain proportion of these migrants had always stayed behind in the US, this exploded from the 70s on. Chapmans new, hard border was keeping Mexicans in the US as much as it kept them out. Most undocumented immigrants (two thirds) overstay their visas. The wall will just become another expensive, impotent monument. A fitting legacy for Trump really.

notobtuse

Igotadose wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

What is the story here?  Somebody says a child died, but can't provide any proof?

If it did happen it's sad. But just another reason why you shouldn't drag your children across the boarder, when you know that they will be separated from you.   If it did happen fire the person who was supposed to be watching this child and be done with it.  Then BUILD THE WALL!

Umm, the policy wasn't in place till recently (and no longer is). So,  you don't KNOW you'll be separated from your child. Prior to the brief period this policy was in place (Note: I could be wrong, for all I know it's still going on and the news hasn't gone on yet,) this was NOT the policy of the USG.

Someone's guilty of negligent manslaughter here. Easy conviction, find the person responsible. This is the US, after all, rule of law prevails.

The policy of separating children from parents started with Obama.

notobtuse

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

I said if it happened it was sad.  But parents shouldn’t be bringing children into the US illegally.  Perhaps Ireland can take them all in.  Wouldn't that be the civilized thing to do?  And I scoff at the selected outrage of these things, used to make Trump look bad in any way, shape or form, IMO.  Do you or anyone here do what is necessary to curb modern day slavery throughout the world?  I doubt it.  If ya’ll would you’d have to give up such things as chocolate, electronic devices including cell phones, cannabis, rubber, most clothing, palm oil, knock-off handbags, diamonds, shrimp and pornography.  But we don't talk about those things or curb our lifestyle because it would hurt us personally, IMO.

Well, if the US didn't destabilise the Middle East through illegal invasions, there wouldn't be any refugees.
The US should pay the EU several billion dollars as compensation for having to put up millions of refugees displaed by US aggression.
THEN we'll talk about the fcuking mess the US has caused in middle and sout America through their idiotic, agressive meddling over the decades.
You know if the US didn't sh*t on the rest of the world, there wouldn't BE as many refugees.
But all you guys know is to bust in there with your size 13s, trample everything and then fcuking whine why the world hates you.
OK, I'll edit the thick part, because it's against standards to say that.
But honestly, do you guys enjoy being regarded as religious, militant extremists, extremely ignorant, loud and violent?

The problem lies with the Arab Spring. Yes the US shares some blame for allowing the rise of the Arab Spring by being disengaged. But the EU was also disengaged as crisis after crisis emerged in the Middle East and Africa, so there is plenty of blame to go around.

notobtuse

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

Allowing children to die because their parents dared to try and find a better life for them is not how a civilised society behaves. To try an make excuses for that behaviour from a government is disgusting.

Or nothing but blatant trolling.
Only an utter scumbag would in any way defend the seperation of children from their families.
If someone feels I am talking to them, yes I do, I'm talking to you. Personally.

It seems you could be talking to me, Trump or even Obama, then.

jooksavage

notobtuse wrote: »

The policy of separating children from parents started with Obama.

"But Obama did it first" - this was addressed 6 weeks ago. It was horsesh** then, it's horsesh** now.



https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856

Igotadose

notobtuse wrote: »

The policy of separating children from parents started with Obama.

When the child was at risk (as per the former head of the DHS.) It was in place exactly for the reason you like - protect the child, prevent child trafficking.

Not when the parents were arrested for attempting to immigrate illegally. That's Trump's policy, not Obama's.

And, FWIW, Obama's not President anymore.

Manic Moran

Captain Obvious wrote: »

See, this is what I have an issue with. Two supervisors have proposed a change in zoning to ban industrial sized kitchens in office buildings in future developments. San Francisco has not banned workplace cafeterias.

Sorry. This is correct, my error. It has, however, been enacted in Mountain View (Silicon Valley). As a result, Facebook's new HQ is prohibited from having a workplace cafeteria.

The idea is to force people to eat on the local economy, to help the restaurant businesses. The possibility that folks will eat packed lunched, or the fact that the cafeteria workers will not be employed, has yet to be debated in SF.

Corkblowin

Putting IMO or 'its my opinion' in your posts doesn't mean they aren't nonsense or lacking in any empathy. It just shows the type of person you are.

As for POTUS tweet, how can anybody claim in any future proceedings / impeachment / whatever that these are not prima facie evidence of attempted obstruction? What kind of argument could possibly be put forward for constantly attacking and disparaging a properly appointed investigation and its head in public?

notobtuse

robinph wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

I said if it happened it was sad.  But parents shouldn’t be bringing children into the US illegally.  Perhaps Ireland can take them all in.  Wouldn't that be the civilized thing to do?  And I scoff at the selected outrage of these things, used to make Trump look bad in any way, shape or form, IMO.  Do you or anyone here do what is necessary to curb modern day slavery throughout the world?  I doubt it.  If ya’ll would you’d have to give up such things as chocolate, electronic devices including cell phones, cannabis, rubber, most clothing, palm oil, knock-off handbags, diamonds, shrimp and pornography.  But we don't talk about those things or curb our lifestyle because it would hurt us personally, IMO.

Don't change the topic onto some other nonsense.

Stick to trying to defend the indefensible and explain to us how it is acceptable for a state to allow for children in their care to die and then to blame it on the parents that the state forcibly separated from the children.

Let me ask you something.  If someone is arrested in Ireland and sent to prison, and they happen to have children, do the children get separated from them?

everlast75

notobtuse wrote: »

What is the story here?  Somebody says a child died, but can't provide any proof?

If it did happen it's sad. But just another reason why you shouldn't drag your children across the boarder, when you know that they will be separated from you.   If it did happen fire the person who was supposed to be watching this child and be done with it.  Then BUILD THE WALL!

It's the parent's fault.

It's the worker looking after the kid's fault

notobtuse wrote: »

The policy of separating children from parents started with Obama.

It's Obama's fault

notobtuse wrote: »

The problem lies with the Arab Spring. Yes the US shares some blame for allowing the rise of the Arab Spring by being disengaged. But the EU was also disengaged as crisis after crisis emerged in the Middle East and Africa, so there is plenty of blame to go around.

It's everyone else's fault.

Jesus - whatever happened to accountability?

everlast75

notobtuse wrote: »

Let me ask you something.  If someone is arrested in Ireland and sent to prison, and they happen to have children, do the children get separated from them?

Do you accept that your earlier point about "Obama doing it" is false?

Let's get a straight answer and then we will deal with your false analogy above.

Stallingrad

notobtuse wrote: »

The problem lies with the Arab Spring. Yes the US shares some blame for allowing the rise of the Arab Spring by being disengaged. But the EU was also disengaged as crisis after crisis emerged in the Middle East and Africa, so there is plenty of blame to go around.

You can argue the genesis of the current migrant crisis, and certainly Europe has a lot of accountability here over the last few years.

However the current Middle East crisis can arguably be traced back to the US Ambassador who told Saddam that the US had no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts, or his border disagreement with Kuwait. Saddam took that as a green light, invaded Kuwait, and we all know what happened next. Gulf War 1 and 2 and eventually the Arab Spring. American foreign policy at its finest screwed over the whole region.

mcmoustache

I'll leave this debate on the pros and cons of kidnapping and neglecting children to briefly address the "Collusion is not a Crime" nonsense that some people have been either fooled into believing or were simply lying about.

As we know, Paul Manafort, the Trump Campaign chairman who used to live in Trump Tower is currently on trial. Less than a year ago, one of the first challenges to Mueller's authority was, well, a challenge to his authority. In response, the Justice Department, issued a memorandum.

On page 3 of the document, it lays out the charges against Manafort. Manafort, for those of you with short memories was Trump's campaign manager and lived in Trump Tower. Most of the charges in the document are redacted but the very first one is not. It says:

Allegations that Paul Manafort:

Committed a crime or crimes by colluding with Russian government officials with respect to the Russian government’s efforts to interfere with the 2016 election for President of the United States in violation of United States law.

See that word in bold? It's "colluding".

So, why would the Justice Department allege that Paul Manafort committed crimes by colluding with Russian government officials if collusion wasn't illegal?

I'm starting to think that Trump and his supporters are very dishonest people.

notobtuse

everlast75 wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

Let me ask you something.  If someone is arrested in Ireland and sent to prison, and they happen to have children, do the children get separated from them?

Do you accept that your earlier point about "Obama doing it" is false?

Let's get a straight answer and then we will deal with your false analogy above.

No I do not, but I was wrong earlier stating the separation of families started under Obama.  The policy actually started under GW Bush and was continued by both Obama and Trump.  All three separated families.

looksee

notobtuse, this forum is in Ireland, what you are seeing is a European perspective on the situation in the US. It has no actual effect on the situation, it is the equivalent of people in a bar or some other social situation, chatting. Europeans see life rather differently to the way a lot of Americans do, and this is what is being expressed.

You could say 'its none of your business' which is almost true (we do have an interest in the leader of a very large country influencing the rest of the world in a completely irresponsible and gombeenish way), and you could get the echo chamber you seek by interacting with other Americans who share your enthusiasm for the man.

The bottom line is, though, that the majority of Europeans and probably the rest of the world think the man is a dangerous, incompetent fool, and that the inconceivable number of Americans who approve of him are irremediably stupid. That is not an opinion you are going to be able to argue away.

Penn

notobtuse wrote: »

Let me ask you something.  If someone is arrested in Ireland and sent to prison, and they happen to have children, do the children get separated from them?

Their children don't get thrown in a detention center, told they'll never see their parents again, have to deal with psychological abuse from the agents working there, and in some reported cases sexual abuse by other children detained with them.

Also, the adult who gets arrested doesn't also face inhumane torture and psychological abuses from the prison guards, or told they might never see their child again because the guards have basically lost the children.

But of course, you already know that and will ignore it because it doesn't fit your false equivalency and the narrative you're following.

jooksavage

notobtuse wrote: »

Let me ask you something. If someone is arrested in Ireland and sent to prison, and they happen to have children, do the children get separated from them?

Crossing the border illegally in the states is a misdemeanor offense. Would we lock up the person and their child for a misdemeanor-type offense here in Ireland? Do we separate asylum seekers from their children?



No.

robinph

notobtuse wrote: »

Let me ask you something.  If someone is arrested in Ireland and sent to prison, and they happen to have children, do the children get separated from them?

Well for starters you don't get arrested and sent straight to prison, and also your child doesn't gets sent to another prison with no way of identifying them or who you or they are and that you are related. So no, that doesn't happen in other civilised countries.

If someone happened to go to trial for some serious offence that might result in a custodial sentence and they were the only known carer for a minor then there would be something else sorted out regarding their care before it got to that point. The child would not be locked up in another state and their paperwork lost though. The parent would also not be blamed if the child got ill or died whilst in the care of the state.

notobtuse

looksee wrote: »

notobtuse, this forum is in Ireland, what you are seeing is a European perspective on the situation in the US. It has no actual effect on the situation, it is the equivalent of people in a bar or some other social situation, chatting. Europeans see life rather differently to the way a lot of Americans do, and this is what is being expressed.

You could say 'its none of your business' which is almost true (we do have an interest in the leader of a very large country influencing the rest of the world in a completely irresponsible and gombeenish way), and you could get the echo chamber you seek by interacting with other Americans who share your enthusiasm for the man.

The bottom line is, though, that the majority of Europeans and probably the rest of the world think the man is a dangerous, incompetent fool, and that the inconceivable number of Americans who approve of him are irremediably stupid. That is not an opinion you are going to be able to argue away.

I completely understand that and thank you for the comment.  Discussion of Trump is ugly here by both parties, also.  As the debate in this topic centers on Trump and US politics, isn’t it beneficial to get a perspective from someone in the US... and particularly a Trump supporter to round out the debate?  A recent poll puts Trump’s approval rating here at 48% so I’d say I represent a large swath of the US opinion regarding Trump.  I understand I probably will change zero attitudes here, but I think it is important posters see things and get a perspective they otherwise might not get on a regular basis? 

Perhaps Boards can do a Now You’re Talking To A Trump Supporter.  Wouldn’t that be a hoot?  Good thing I'd be thousands of miles away with a ocean between us.  :)

Edit:  And I would ask you please don't issue infractions against anyone here who goes after me personally or disparages me, or might bend the rules on civility.  Being a Trump supporter I understand and am used to the anger.  People are passionate about Trump and anger sometimes boils over, which is okay in my book.

everlast75

Maybe Trump should build that wall so I can go bang my head against it! That's what it feels like here sometimes.




Anyhoo, Trump is on quite the tweet storm. The last time he had one of those was last week when there was a false start on the Manafort trial. I for one am delighted he is going hell for leather on twitter today. In a small and petty way, I know he must really be fired up over the trial of a guy "he hardly knew"...

mcmoustache

everlast75 wrote: »

Anyhoo, Trump is on quite the tweet storm. The last time he had one of those was last week when there was a false start on the Manafort trial. I for one am delighted he is going hell for leather on twitter today. In a small and petty way, I know he must really be fired up over the trial of a guy "he hardly knew"...

Today's tweeting has been a bit more unhinged than usual and that's saying something.

Demanding that Jeff Sessions end the investigation is the first time that he has publicly done so. We know he tried to get Sessions to do this before and that Mueller has been investigating those events already but this is the first time that he did so in front of the world.

Stallingrad

notobtuse wrote: »

Perhaps Boards can do a Now You’re Talking To A Trump Supporter. Wouldn’t that be a hoot? Good thing I'd be thousands of miles away with a ocean between us.

I'm encouraged to see that despite you being up against it here that it has remained civil. As you are a Trump supporter, given that I don't know any, can you explain how you reconcile your support of him with the below (which are facts, not opinon)?

"The issue with Trump supporters is the stuff they deem acceptable in a person, never mind a leader. The lying, the infidelity, the casual racism, the bombast and bluster, the willingness to inflame and divide within his own country, the misogyny, the bullying, the flip flopping, his narcissism, and on it goes. If you support Trump you are saying these qualities are acceptable, not only in a person, but in their leader."