Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Cheerful Spring

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't get it. Didn't Don Jnr admit all this himself last year. I mean I get how it is big I just don't get how it is new. Even 2 scoops is commenting on how it is the first evidence of collusion but I thought we had that last year with this same story?

Given everyone but me is on the same page with this I figure I am wrong but not sure why.

I believe Don Jnr denied he had asked for dirt on Hilary and until yesterday it was just an allegation against him. Now we know in that meeting Trump son wanted dirt on Hilary. This is collusion. The DNC was hacked in June and July of 2016 a few weeks after this meeting so with this new revelation you got to wonder did Russia hack the DNC looking for info on her for Trump team? It may not be the case but the timing is interesting.

robinph

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I believe Don Jnr denied he had asked for dirt on Hilary and until yesterday it was just an allegation against him. Now we know in that meeting Trump son wanted dirt on Hilary. This is collusion. The DNC was hacked in June and July of 2016 a few weeks after this meeting so with this new revelation you got to wonder did Russia hack the DNC looking for info on her for Trump team? It may not be the case but the timing is interesting.

You must have missed Trump Jr releasing the email chain last year that he claimed showed no collusion whilst in it he was asking to collude with Russia?

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/07/politics/donald-trump-jr-full-emails/

The stupid was very strong at that moment as he was trying to use an email where he clearly admitted guilt by himself, Manafort and Kushner was actually the opposite.

amandstu

robinph wrote: »

You must have missed Trump Jr releasing the email chain last year that he claimed showed no collusion whilst in it he was asking to collude with Russia?

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/07/politics/donald-trump-jr-full-emails/

The stupid was very strong at that moment as he was trying to use an email where he clearly admitted guilt by himself, Manafort and Kushner was actually the opposite.

Does stupity explain this ?
How could anyone of intelligence not see that to seek information on an opponent in an election from a foreign government was wrong and treasonous (if not legally,then in spirit)? Pure stupidity?

If anyone else was aware this was happening ,did they have a duty to report it?

robinph

amandstu wrote: »

Does stupity explain this ?
How could anyone of intelligence not see that to seek information on an opponent in an election from a foreign government was wrong and treasonous (if not legally,then in spirit)? Pure stupidity?

If anyone else was aware this was happening ,did they have a duty to report it?

The stupidity covers the posting the emails to Twitter thinking they said something completely different. Nobody threw Jr under a bus, he threw himself under it, just the latest from Snr is him driving the bus back and forth over Jr a couple of times just to make sure they did it properly.

They all knew fully what they were doing at the time of the meeting. Maybe they didn't know the word "collusion" or what it meant, but they surely knew that it was morally and legally wrong to be getting that information from a foreign government on behalf of the potential future head of state of their own country and to then be asking that foreign government to carry out hacking on your opponent?

It's the most open and shut case ever. Only reason that I can think Jr was arrested last last summer was because that level of stupidity just needs to be left on the loose to see what else they give you as they think they have got away with it.

Cheerful Spring

robinph wrote: »

You must have missed Trump Jr releasing the email chain last year that he claimed showed no collusion whilst in it he was asking to collude with Russia?

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/07/politics/donald-trump-jr-full-emails/

The stupid was very strong at that moment as he was trying to use an email where he clearly admitted guilt by himself, Manafort and Kushner was actually the opposite.

Yes, first time seeing these emails interesting exchange. Rob Goldstein did most of the talking about the Russians having info on Hilary and wanting to arrange a meeting to hand this over. The info seems to be about Hilary relationship and dealings with Russia. I not sure how big of a deal this turned out to be I can't remember anything newsworthy that got released after this meeting?

It's evidence of collusion but it not enough in that to impeach Trump or to go after his son for.

If the Mueller team can link the meeting and the hacking of DNC its game over for trump. What did the Trump team offer in exchange for this info did it cost him nothing? They discuss other things the Russians can do to help Trump win?

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yes, first time seeing these emails interesting exchange. Rob Goldstein did most of the talking about the Russians having info on Hilary and wanting to arrange a meeting to hand this over. The info seems to be about Hilary relationship and dealings with Russia. I not sure how big of a deal this turned out to be I can't remember anything newsworthy that got released after this meeting?

It's evidence of collusion but it not enough in that to impeach Trump or to go after his son for.

If the Mueller team can link the meeting and the hacking of DNC its game over for trump. What did the Trump team offer in exchange for this info did it cost him nothing? They discuss other things the Russians can do to help Trump win?

I wouldn't be so sure that it's not enough to go after Trump Jr for.

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yes, first time seeing these emails interesting exchange. Rob Goldstein did most of the talking about the Russians having info on Hilary and wanting to arrange a meeting to hand this over. The info seems to be about Hilary relationship and dealings with Russia. I not sure how big of a deal this turned out to be I can't remember anything newsworthy that got released after this meeting?

It's evidence of collusion but it not enough in that to impeach Trump or to go after his son for.

If the Mueller team can link the meeting and the hacking of DNC its game over for trump. What did the Trump team offer in exchange for this info did it cost him nothing? They discuss other things the Russians can do to help Trump win?

So you think that Trump now needs to have been actively involved in the actual hacking? That is your new level?

Under that Nixon did nothing, he didn't break in did he?

You are putting the burden of proof on the wrong side, at least in terms of explaining to the public.
Trump needs now to explain on what basis he was, through his son, prepared to pay for this intel. Or did he think it was for free?
Would he be prepared to pay for intel on other opponents, regardless of how they get it? Is he still working with the Russians on the 2020 campaign, or the mid-terms?
Why did he claim the FBI etc were wrong on the Russia interference for so long when he knew about it all the time?
Whey did he not try to stop the meeting, or inform the FBI when he found out?

Why did Trump Jr not seem surprised when notified this was part of the plan to help Trump?

You are basically saying that you will accept a political campaign tried to obtain illegal sourced intel from a foreign government because it might have cost them nothing! Nothing is ever free, there mightn't be a bill to pay on the day but there is always a price.

MadYaker

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I believe Don Jnr denied he had asked for dirt on Hilary and until yesterday it was just an allegation against him. Now we know in that meeting Trump son wanted dirt on Hilary. This is collusion. The DNC was hacked in June and July of 2016 a few weeks after this meeting so with this new revelation you got to wonder did Russia hack the DNC looking for info on her for Trump team? It may not be the case but the timing is interesting.

Welcome into the light

Cheerful Spring

batgoat wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure that it's not enough to go after Trump Jr for.

It can be used as part of the evidence against him, but its hardly going to be arrested for receiving info about Hilary relationship with Russia. What they have to prove now is the Russian intelligence services were given the green light after this meeting to hack the DNC. What was said at this meeting is very relevant now in light of Trump tweet.

Leroy42

The very fact that he attempt to secure the information is the problem. What the intel was is irrelevant.

How Russia got it, is not for Trump to have determined. He knows they shouldn't have it. He knows that them having that likely means that they could try to get other intel, placing US security under threat.

Not only did he do nothing to stop it, he actively encouraged it. I am only surprised that the wider US public are not demanding his immediate arrest. I think it is totally shocking his total disregard for the security of the US.

It seems this has all been framed into the fact that that since HC is so terrible, then it was understandable (some poster even stated that).

But are we really to believe that had Trump been running against Sanders and the Russians offer the same type of intel that he would have refused? That he only did it as it was HC and it would make the US safer ultimately. Because that seems to be the line of argument.

So, will Trump do the same for the mid-terms, for 2020? There is no reason to believe that he is doing anything to stop it and if it looks like he might lose wouldn't they resort to the same again?

Should everyone now be allowed to do this, to work with any foreign government? Surely then you can't hold anyone responsible for passing US secrets on, once it damages a particular party or opponent?

That is the real issue here. Its not Trump Jr, or even Trump. It is the security of the US that it appears that Trump JR, and let us not forget it involves Jared (still working in the WH, and married to the daughter of POTUS) and Manafort, chairman of the campaign with massive financial links to Russia.

robinph

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It can be used as part of the evidence against him, but its hardly going to be arrested for receiving info about Hilary relationship with Russia. What they have to prove now is the Russian intelligence services were given the green light after this meeting to hack the DNC. What was said at this meeting is very relevant now in light of Trump tweet.

What more evidence do you need?

Russia: Would you like some dirt on Hillary?
Trump Jr: Yes please. Lets meet.
Trump Sr: Russia, would you mind terribly hacking into the DNC servers?
Russia hacks into the DNC servers.
Trump Sr: Hey everyone, have a look at Wikileaks.

Cheerful Spring

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you think that Trump now needs to have been actively involved in the actual hacking? That is your new level?

Under that Nixon did nothing, he didn't break in did he?

You are putting the burden of proof on the wrong side, at least in terms of explaining to the public.
Trump needs now to explain on what basis he was, through his son, prepared to pay for this intel. Or did he think it was for free?
Would he be prepared to pay for intel on other opponents, regardless of how they get it? Is he still working with the Russians on the 2020 campaign, or the mid-terms?
Why did he claim the FBI etc were wrong on the Russia interference for so long when he knew about it all the time?
Whey did he not try to stop the meeting, or inform the FBI when he found out?

Why did Trump Jr not seem surprised when notified this was part of the plan to help Trump?

You are basically saying that you will accept a political campaign tried to obtain illegal sourced intel from a foreign government because it might have cost them nothing! Nothing is ever free, there mightn't be a bill to pay on the day but there is always a price.

Watergate burglars worked for Nixon that was proven in so many ways it was undeniable.

You just have to prove Trump was aware of the meeting and further actions against Hilary were talked about at the meeting. Did Don Jnr ask the Russians could they provide better info at later date?

Leroy42

In any other functioning democracy Trump would be being called to resign. He lied about the meeting when the story broke. He lied about Russian interference in the election. He failed to hold Putin to account. He failed to demand the 12 (was it 13) that Mueller be handed over to the US (of course Putin wouldn't but you can still demand it).

Can you imagine if Leo or May had used a family member to try to secure illegal intel from a foreign government? Trump had the audacity to call Merkel out as being under the influence of Russia because of a pipeline whilst at the same time being involved in a WH cover up for his son!

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Watergate burglars worked for Nixon that was proven in so many ways it was undeniable.

You just have to prove Trump was aware of the meeting and further actions against Hilary were talked about at the meeting. Did Don Jnr ask the Russians could they provide better info at later date?

The intent is enough to end up placing Don Jr in hot water. Success or lack thereof is still colluding with a foreign agent to interfere with the electoral process.

Christy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Watergate burglars worked for Nixon that was proven in so many ways it was undeniable.

You just have to prove Trump was aware of the meeting and further actions against Hilary were talked about at the meeting. Did Don Jnr ask the Russians could they provide better info at later date?

I agree for Trump himself he would need to be aware of the meeting (which seems likely). However why would the Russians need to promise further info? If you get it all done in one meeting as opposed to two why is it suddenly legal?

Sure they may or may not have been aware the Russians were gathering the information but they attempted to trade for the information. That is the issue. They should have reported the situation and left it. Instead they attempted to collude with the Russians.

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Watergate burglars worked for Nixon that was proven in so many ways it was undeniable.

You just have to prove Trump was aware of the meeting and further actions against Hilary were talked about at the meeting. Did Don Jnr ask the Russians could they provide better info at later date?

That is the only part missing. Did Trump know in advance of the meeting. But he certainly knew back when the story broke? Why did he lie and use the WH to cover up for his son?

Further actions are irrelevant. If they had agreed to give Russias the nuclear codes in exchange for the hacking, but the Russians failed to carry out the hack, or you saying that would be ok with you?

The fact the meeting took place, on the basis on getting intel on HC is enough. Its called conspiracy.

BTW it is only on the basis of the statements from Trump Jr and Trump that we think the Russians didn't provide intel. And, lets put it nicely, they have both been shown to be complete lairs in every aspect of this.

Leroy42

Christy42 wrote: »

I agree for Trump himself he would need to be aware of the meeting (which seems likely). However why would the Russians need to promise further info? If you get it all done in one meeting as opposed to two why is it suddenly legal?

Sure they may or may not have been aware the Russians were gathering the information but they attempted to trade for the information. That is the issue. They should have reported the situation and left it. Instead they attempted to collude with the Russians.

But even if you go with the line that he didn't know at the time, he certainly knew when he put out the statement. So Trump lied about the meeting, he attempted to cover it up.

I'll say that again, Trump, the POTUS, was involved in a conspiracy to cover up a potential crime by his son and son-in-law, using the assets of the WH when he did so.

SHS needs to come out and state what she knew at the time gave press briefings. Was she lying to the press or was she not told. If not told, then surely she needs to resign as a Press Officer should never go out without knowing the facts.

robinph

The only way that it isn't collusion for that meeting to happen would be if on receiving the email the FBI were the next people to know about it and they were waiting outside the door of the office to arrest the Russians upon it's conclusion. Any other scenario it is collusion/ treason and Don Jr is guilty as proved by his own emails.

The fact that Cheerful Spring wasn't aware of the emails and the admission of guilt from last year should be an indication to them that they may need to expand their media intake to a wider variety of sources.

looksee

Leroy42 wrote: »

In any other functioning democracy Trump would be being called to resign. He lied about the meeting when the story broke. He lied about Russian interference in the election. He failed to hold Putin to account. He failed to demand the 12 (was it 13) that Mueller be handed over to the US (of course Putin wouldn't but you can still demand it).

Can you imagine if Leo or May had used a family member to try to secure illegal intel from a foreign government? Trump had the audacity to call Merkel out as being under the influence of Russia because of a pipeline whilst at the same time being involved in a WH cover up for his son!

Well, yes, that's what people with his personality do. Look at what they are accusing other people of doing and that is the very thing they would do themselves.

Cheerful Spring

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is the only part missing. Did Trump know in advance of the meeting. But he certainly knew back when the story broke? Why did he lie and use the WH to cover up for his son?

Further actions are irrelevant. If they had agreed to give Russias the nuclear codes in exchange for the hacking, but the Russians failed to carry out the hack, or you saying that would be ok with you?

The fact the meeting took place, on the basis on getting intel on HC is enough. Its called conspiracy.

BTW it is only on the basis of the statements from Trump Jr and Trump that we think the Russians didn't provide intel. And, lets put it nicely, they have both been shown to be complete lairs in every aspect of this.

Wrong because the only way this harms trump if its proven Russians went away from this meeting went back to Moscow and met with people in the GRU to start the process of trying to get more information to damage Hilary. The info talked about in these emails exchanges is not going to doing to damage Trump. Republicans are hardly going to impeach Trump for receiving info about Hilary deals with Russia they probably say that's ok knowing them. What would really get them going if the Trump team asked the Russians to do things like hacking the DNC and this can be found out?

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Wrong because the only way this harms trump if its proven the Russia went away from this meeting went back to Moscow and met with people in thed GRU to start the process of trying to get more information to damage Hilary. The info talked about in these emails exchanges is not going to doing to damage Trump. Republicans are hardly going to impeach Trump for receiving info about Hilary deals with Russia they probably say that's ok knowing them. What would really get them going if the Trump team asked the Russians to do things like hacking the DNC and this can be found out?

Oh, I totally agree with all of that. No way this will actually lead to his impeachment.

But it does lead to all the other question I have asked;

Is it ok for anyone to deal with a foreign government?
Is it only because it is HC or do people think that Trump will do this again?
Why did Trump cover up the details of the meeting?
Why did Jared not tell the truth?
What can Manafort offer in return? HE would know if Trump knew, is that why Trump is sticking with him?
Why did Trump claim that Russian didn't interfere when at the very least he knew they were trying to? So given that the FBI said they did, and he knew they were trying to, what does he know that gave him confidence that they didn't?

robinph

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Wrong because the only way this harms trump if its proven Russians went away from this meeting went back to Moscow and met with people in the GRU to start the process of trying to get more information to damage Hilary. The info talked about in these emails exchanges is not going to doing to damage Trump. Republicans are hardly going to impeach Trump for receiving info about Hilary deals with Russia they probably say that's ok knowing them. What would really get them going if the Trump team asked the Russians to do things like hacking the DNC and this can be found out?

It might be that the republicans chose to pretend that it didn't happen, but just the fact that a claimed Russian government lawyer offered Don Jr information on HC, and that Trump Jr agreed to meet with the Russian is collusion. Trump Snr then knew about the meeting, if not before then her certainly knew about it a couple of hours later as he was then making statements about Russia hacking on his behalf.

Trump Srs crime at the minimum is to have known about the collusion carried out by his son and not reported it.

Then when presented with evidence that it happened said that he didn't know about it. Then when presented with evidence that he did know about it said that nothing was talked about. Then when presented with evidence that something of substance was talked about said that it wasn't collusion. Then when his son provides the evidence that it was collusion tries to distract everyone by pointing out a flying elephant.

amandstu

Would it be alright for all the different political parties to deal with different foreign secret services to get the dirt on the others at election time? (call upon them openly to hack their opponents' emails</joke>)

So the Dems could use the German intelligence agencies and the Greens could use the Chinese?

Would that work?

If it would not be OK what sanctions should there be?

Leroy42

amandstu wrote: »

Would it be alright for all the different political parties to deal with different foreign secret services to get the dirt on the others at election time? (call upon them openly to hack their opponents' emails</joke>)

So the Dems could use the German intelligence agencies and the Greens could use the Chinese?

Would that work?

If it would not be OK what sanctions should there be?

And therein lies the danger in all of this. Even if Trump can show that there is nothing illegal in any of this, it poses a real serious question as to the future for US politics.

As you alluded to, should anybody be allowed to engage a foreign power. And by extension, would it be OK for US citizens to be engaged by foreign powers to get US intel?

What if a price if required, not money (too easy to trace) but sanctions, trade deals, tariffs etc. Whilst of course it happens within the US, the thought there us that at least the US is secure.

The GOP really need to start taking this seriously in terms of the long-term security of the US

Cheerful Spring

robinph wrote: »

It might be that the republicans chose to pretend that it didn't happen, but just the fact that a claimed Russian government lawyer offered Don Jr information on HC, and that Trump Jr agreed to meet with the Russian is collusion. Trump Snr then knew about the meeting, if not before then her certainly knew about it a couple of hours later as he was then making statements about Russia hacking on his behalf.

Trump Srs crime at the minimum is to have known about the collusion carried out by his son and not reported it.

Then when presented with evidence that it happened said that he didn't know about it. Then when presented with evidence that he did know about it said that nothing was talked about. Then when presented with evidence that something of substance was talked about said that it wasn't collusion. Then when his son provides the evidence that it was collusion tries to distract everyone by pointing out a flying elephant.

I can't argue with this clearly Donald has lied and his twitter post yesterday is evidence of that. Trump team worked with Russia to undermine Hilary and this should be an impeachment offence. There could be more revelations to come out yet and see what happens on that. I just saying the info the got in that meeting is not going to change Trump supporters minds about him. The only way Trump is going to fall over this if they can provide evidence of asking the Russians for further help to damage her. Just imagine they discussed hacking and finding her lost emails in this meeting?

amandstu

Leroy42 wrote: »

And therein lies the danger in all of this. Even if Trump can show that there is nothing illegal in any of this, it poses a real serious question as to the future for US politics.

As you alluded to, should anybody be allowed to engage a foreign power. And by extension, would it be OK for US citizens to be engaged by foreign powers to get US intel?

What if a price if required, not money (too easy to trace) but sanctions, trade deals, tariffs etc. Whilst of course it happens within the US, the thought there us that at least the US is secure.

The GOP really need to start taking this seriously in terms of the long-term security of the US

With the election being so tight it seems to me that those elections may have fallen short of "free and fair" even if no actual vote tampering took place (and it seems the passwords to some of the electronic voting machines were risible so even that is not certain in my mind)

Mind you the reinvestigation of Hillary's emails ,which was the tipping point seems to have be done innocently.

Cheerful Spring

Leroy42 wrote: »

And therein lies the danger in all of this. Even if Trump can show that there is nothing illegal in any of this, it poses a real serious question as to the future for US politics.

As you alluded to, should anybody be allowed to engage a foreign power. And by extension, would it be OK for US citizens to be engaged by foreign powers to get US intel?

What if a price if required, not money (too easy to trace) but sanctions, trade deals, tariffs etc. Whilst of course it happens within the US, the thought there us that at least the US is secure.

The GOP really need to start taking this seriously in terms of the long-term security of the US

It's definitely illegal it's a form of espionage I would think?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Trump and SHS eet all have proved to be incredibly good at this. Taking everything he says to mean whatever they want it to mean.

In the sense that it's working they're good at it. However they're not particularly good at it in an objective sense simply because they don't need to be. They have a captive audience. They don't even need to spin things because their cultists will do it for them. Trump could say some horrific **** and his strong supporters would spin it whatever way they needed to to themselves to convince themselves it's fine.

everlast75

I've a wager with my bro. $20 that Trump is gone by xmas.

He reckoned he wouldn't be, and took the bet.

Here is his latest thought...

"My prediction about Trump is that Jnr, Hicks, Kushner and others will be sentenced, Trump will be unindicted co-conspirator (not enough for Reps to impeach), but in his rage he will do something that will send Reps over the edge and impeach him".


I reckon what might happen is they will be charged, and Trump will pre-empt and pardon, and that'll put things over the edge

dr.fuzzenstein

amandstu wrote: »

Would it be alright for all the different political parties to deal with different foreign secret services to get the dirt on the others at election time? (call upon them openly to hack their opponents' emails</joke>)

So the Dems could use the German intelligence agencies and the Greens could use the Chinese?

Would that work?

If it would not be OK what sanctions should there be?

This will be standard modus operandi going forward.
Smear your opponent with any lie you can think of, threaten to lock them up, shout inane slogans, collude with anyone who can give you any dirt, have bot armies infiltrate social media to spread lies and misinformation about your opponent and engage in cult of personality.
Then you just need to whip the crowd into a frenzy, point at easy solutions and scapegoats and never let up making lots of noise.

You just need empty slogans, a campaign manager that knows how to set up a stage show and preferably has experience in showbiz.
Just take a reality TV star, a lot of razzle dazzle and the rest is noise non stop.
Then just watch the people who had their brains fried by decades of brain-dead sh*t on TV jump up and clap like the trained monkeys that they are.