Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I like how we have an entire thread with thousands of posts about what the horrors of a big government being controlled by the wrong person can do, everyone here is just saying that the solution is to change who controls the big government, my solution is less government and I'm the bad man.

Thats not a solution, thats something you read on Facebook.

That is drivel that the GOP have hid behind for years, but they see nothing wrong with using the tools of government to action things they want to achieve.

They want the federal government inside peoples lifes on things like abortion, but they want the government to stay out of peoples lifes on healthcare.

Its hilarious the mental loops that people will go through to justify a point of view, when they really dont give a crap about it. The GOP is only ever about money. They are grand as long as someone else is paying for it.

You wonder why infrastructure is falling apart in the US, because the GOP are telling everyone that no one needs to pay for it. Less taxes less government in your life.


Result - Less nice country. Place is turning into a right kip.

Eric Cartman

Leroy42 wrote: »

No, your point is not to reduce government. Your solution is to reduce government in the areas you don't agree with but to very much keep it in the areas that you like.

So you are fine with military spending, I assume police, disaster relief. You are against spending on the farmers, but not enough to actually call Trump out on it or waiver in your support.

I have literally posted about 10 times in this thread about opposing the farmers bailout . and its not 'areas I like' minimising government to only essential spending is an important pillar of the GOP , that was always the idea. Decreasing military spending to defence only , not giving handouts to farmers, cutting welfare all very conservative policies.

I understand while its my ideal that a full on free market with 0 taxation and 0 government probably won't work , so the next best thing is a free market basis with a limited government, so limited that it only spends on whats essential is the best way to go. in terms of trump and Clinton , trump represents that more, in terms of US politics overall, Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez represent that least of all.

Everyone keeps bringing up abortion like its a top 10 freedom or top 10 restriction to be worried about , the reality is be it Ireland or the US , abortion is a small issue and should not be the deciding factor for anyone in government. And just so you know under my system of limited government, there wouldn't even be the power to restrict it.

Eric Cartman

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

The mask slips.

I fail to see what you mean.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have literally posted about 10 times in this thread about opposing the farmers bailout . and its not 'areas I like' minimising government to only essential spending is an important pillar of the GOP , that was always the idea. Decreasing military spending to defence only , not giving handouts to farmers, cutting welfare all very conservative policies.

I understand while its my ideal that a full on free market with 0 taxation and 0 government probably won't work , so the next best thing is a free market basis with a limited government, so limited that it only spends on whats essential is the best way to go. in terms of trump and Clinton , trump represents that more, in terms of US politics overall, Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez represent that least of all.

What i would love is, And i mean absolute love is for people that hold that view to actually go and live in a place like that. Go ahead.

Its excellent to tappy tappy tap that stuff from a cosy keyboard in Ireland, a country that looks after its citizens, has great education, welfare. Health care that doesnt make you bankrupt. Great roads and very little in any way of extreme weather . Its a basic paradise for a citizen.

You would want to go off and live somewhere or be born somewhere that aspires to what you 'think' is the ideal. You haven't a clue buddy.

ELM327

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have literally posted about 10 times in this thread about opposing the farmers bailout . and its not 'areas I like' minimising government to only essential spending is an important pillar of the GOP , that was always the idea. Decreasing military spending to defence only , not giving handouts to farmers, cutting welfare all very conservative policies.

I understand while its my ideal that a full on free market with 0 taxation and 0 government probably won't work , so the next best thing is a free market basis with a limited government, so limited that it only spends on whats essential is the best way to go. in terms of trump and Clinton , trump represents that more, in terms of US politics overall, Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez represent that least of all.

Agree with all of the above.
Unfortunately this side of the pond the prevailing viewpoint and ideology seems to be the exact antithesis of this (high government involvement, high taxation, punish the venture capitalist to reward the layman etc).


Any view to the contrary (right wing, capitalism etc) is generally derided. Which is funny, because the contrary viewpoint (socialism/high taxation etc) are risible imo.

swampgas

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I fail to see what you mean.

You might not be able to see it, or might be pretending not to see it, but believe me, it's really bloody obvious to everyone else.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree with all of the above.
Unfortunately this side of the pond the prevailing viewpoint and ideology seems to be the exact antithesis of this (high government involvement, high taxation, punish the venture capitalist to reward the layman etc).


Any view to the contrary (right wing, capitalism etc) is generally derided. Which is funny, because the contrary viewpoint (socialism/high taxation etc) are risible imo.

Yeah its kinda mad isnt it.

The places that are consistently voted as the best places to live in work.


Arent places that have your right wing capitalistic governance.


I mean, how is that?

Its almost as if you dont have a notion as to what full on conservative capitalism means....

Its as if you have been coddled most of your life into having a good existence that you dont know what it is to pay 50-60K per year for a College education.

mad that....

Eric Cartman

swampgas wrote: »

You might not be able to see it, or might be pretending not to see it, but believe me, it's really bloody obvious to everyone else.

If you're trying to make that a race thing you can jog on, thats not what I'm implying, you know its not and so do most other people, trying to conflate my comments with anything along that vein or a 'mask slipping' are wrong and I won't entertain such suggestions.

Eric Cartman

listermint wrote: »

Yeah its kinda mad isnt it.

The places that are consistently voted as the best places to live in work.


Arent places that have your right wing capitalistic governance.


I mean, how is that?

Its almost as if you dont have a notion as to what full on conservative capitalism means....

Its as if you have been coddled most of your life into having a good existence that you dont know what it is to pay 50-60K per year for a College education.

mad that....

What country possesses the highest regarded universities ? What country do we send all the really complicated and rare medical cases to ? what country has been responsible for the majority of the large companies that provide us innovative products in our lives ?

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree with all of the above.
Unfortunately this side of the pond the prevailing viewpoint and ideology seems to be the exact antithesis of this (high government involvement, high taxation, punish the venture capitalist to reward the layman etc).


Any view to the contrary (right wing, capitalism etc) is generally derided. Which is funny, because the contrary viewpoint (socialism/high taxation etc) are risible imo.

This is complete drivel. Worldwide, including this side of the pond, the rich are getting richer all the time. There is no punishment on those that work hard, safe for the middle income earner. Tax breaks, pension schemes, government hand outs, state investment schemes.

AS was mentioned previously, these corporations are utilising the resources of the country. The educated workforce, the roads, ports, airports. The broadband infrastructure. The courts system.

People are looking for equality. Those that can pay do, and those that can't get helped out to make them into those that do. Do you think people in a hurricane zone should simply be told to lump it?

The problem with capitalism is that, on its own, it cannot work. It requires a level of socialism to continue. Be that building new roads, educating the workforce, providing a standards system to regulate and protect their products.

Leroy42

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What country possesses the highest regarded universities ? What country do we send all the really complicated and rare medical cases to ? what country has been responsible for the majority of the large companies that provide us innovative products in our lives ?

Have any of those examples ever got any hand-out or help from either the state or utilised the resources (such as roads, education etc)? Because if they have, then part of their success is down to that.

Capitalism is all fine and good, but to deny that socialism plays any part, that somehow a capitalist only policy is the way to go is demostrably false.

Even the current POTUS, the arch capitalist, accepted that farmers needed a handout to deal with the issues caused by tariffs.

Mancomb Seepgood

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If you're trying to make that a race thing you can jog on, thats not what I'm implying, you know its not and so do most other people, trying to conflate my comments with anything along that vein or a 'mask slipping' are wrong and I won't entertain such suggestions.

Of all the countries you choose as examples,you picked Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa.But you won't entertain anyone suggesting it's a race thing.Right.

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

Yeah its kinda mad isnt it.

The places that are consistently voted as the best places to live in work.


Arent places that have your right wing capitalistic governance.


I mean, how is that?

Its almost as if you dont have a notion as to what full on conservative capitalism means....

Its as if you have been coddled most of your life into having a good existence that you dont know what it is to pay 50-60K per year for a College education.

mad that....

Yeah because the majority of the top universities in the world are state funded as opposed to private. Oh wait.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/world-university-rankings-2018-results-announced
70% of the top 10 are in the US.


I haven't been coddled into anything. I have a debilitating mental disorder (ASD) with another co morbid one (severe anxiety). I've known the feeling when your dole is cutting off and you have no job.

Yet I worked my way up to where I am now. Without handouts in doing so. The only handouts I received were 9 months of JSB in '08-09. I didnt qualify for JSA due to parents income, even though I didnt live at home.


I can't believe you genuinely think I have no idea what conservative capitalism means. Well. Those two terms are mutually exclusive. I am a full on capitalist, less of a conservative.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What country possesses the highest regarded universities ? What country do we send all the really complicated and rare medical cases to ? what country has been responsible for the majority of the large companies that provide us innovative products in our lives ?

So you cant give me an example of any country that subscribes to your version of conservative capitalism and people want to live there then ?

Grand, Because it would appear that as has been pointed out your ideal system is lunacy, it doesnt work it isnt even deployed in the US. In fact even the GOP whom you so dealy love are pix and mix view of conservatism when it suits them or their benefactors.

Its very telling when you cant find an example of such a haven.

The places that look after their citizens are the places that countries want to be more like.

Oh btw Ireland is up near the top of the list. Enjoy it, because you really were born into the lottery of life. Its surprising that more irish people dont realise this. Perhaps if you spent a bit more time talking to people coming from abroad who didnt have your luck then you might come to a bit of a reality check.


A Dawning realisation if you will.

ELM327

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What country possesses the highest regarded universities ? What country do we send all the really complicated and rare medical cases to ? what country has been responsible for the majority of the large companies that provide us innovative products in our lives ?

You know, it's almost as if financial investment driven by a need to return a profit will push the boundaries and find the better cure, where a doctor who gets paid anyway regardless by the state doesn't care!


Gee , isn't capitalism so terrible!

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If you're trying to make that a race thing you can jog on, thats not what I'm implying, you know its not and so do most other people, trying to conflate my comments with anything along that vein or a 'mask slipping' are wrong and I won't entertain such suggestions.

Really.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the problem with paradises like that is that eventually you get them working well and then the natives scream colonialism and world bodies put pressure on you to give them 'back' their land and then they ruin it again and they become crime ridden hellholes, Ala South Africa / Rhodesia.

Oh no sirree bob, no hint of racism from this straight middle class white man.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

Yeah because the majority of the top universities in the world are state funded as opposed to private. Oh wait.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/world-university-rankings-2018-results-announced
70% of the top 10 are in the US.


I haven't been coddled into anything. I have a debilitating mental disorder (ASD) with another co morbid one (severe anxiety). I've known the feeling when your dole is cutting off and you have no job.

Yet I worked my way up to where I am now. Without handouts in doing so. The only handouts I received were 9 months of JSB in '08-09. I didnt qualify for JSA due to parents income, even though I didnt live at home.


I can't believe you genuinely think I have no idea what conservative capitalism means. Well. Those two terms are mutually exclusive. I am a full on capitalist, less of a conservative.

You've been given a free education from when you could walk up until the day you could have a pint and you got a free (to near free) healthcare.


The fact you cant see that is clouded by your anti welfare attitude. And the gawl on you considering you benefited from it.

oscarBravo

ELM327 wrote: »

Yet I worked my way up to where I am now. Without handouts in doing so.

You paid for your own primary and secondary education? Wow, well done.

ELM327

Leroy42 wrote: »

This is complete drivel. Worldwide, including this side of the pond, the rich are getting richer all the time. There is no punishment on those that work hard, safe for the middle income earner. Tax breaks, pension schemes, government hand outs, state investment schemes.

AS was mentioned previously, these corporations are utilising the resources of the country. The educated workforce, the roads, ports, airports. The broadband infrastructure. The courts system.

People are looking for equality. Those that can pay do, and those that can't get helped out to make them into those that do. Do you think people in a hurricane zone should simply be told to lump it?

The problem with capitalism is that, on its own, it cannot work. It requires a level of socialism to continue. Be that building new roads, educating the workforce, providing a standards system to regulate and protect their products.

See, Eric Cartman, this is the type of post I was cautioning you about above. You're not allowed to have a capitalist viewpoint around here or you will be met with derision.



0% taxation and 0% governance is not plausible or practicable. But, 100% socialism is also not practicable.


Capitalism in the real world means striving for as low taxation and as low governance and government spending as possible.

Eric Cartman

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Of all the countries you choose as examples,you picked Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa.But you won't entertain anyone suggesting it's a race thing.Right.

well even the US itself was constructed under the basis of people bein dissatisfied with the british level of government intervention, it existed as a bastian of freedom and low taxation for a long time until the spectre of big government entered the framework and diluted the country to these quasi socialist ideals.

I unfortunately have no examples of where anyone has started a country under the basis of freedom that has not had the unfortunate bloodshed of a native population , bloodshed which I condemn.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

You know, it's almost as if financial investment driven by a need to return a profit will push the boundaries and find the better cure, where a doctor who gets paid anyway regardless by the state doesn't care!


Gee , isn't capitalism so terrible!

Ha ha, even the GOP have major problems with Pharmaceutical companies and the profiteering.

Are you even aware of the subject matter you are discussing. Because you are acting like you just stepped into the room and everyone else has been discussing it for ages.

I cant believe you are not aware of medicines pricing in the US , and what a problem both parties have with it.


????

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

You've been given a free education from when you could walk up until the day you could have a pint and you got a free (to near free) healthcare.


The fact you cant see that is clouded by your anti welfare attitude. And the gawl on you considering you benefited from it.

oscarBravo wrote: »

You paid for your own primary and secondary education? Wow, well done.

I paid for my own secondary education via an academic scholarship to a private school.
Primary education is of course availed of. See above post, no one claims to aspire to 0% government spending as above. In the real world 0% equates to minimal

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

You paid for your own primary and secondary education? Wow, well done.

Ive more than paid back for it now anyway.

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

Ha ha, even the GOP have major problems with Pharmaceutical companies and the profiteering.

Are you even aware of the subject matter you are discussing. Because you are acting like you just stepped into the room and everyone else has been discussing it for ages.

I cant believe you are not aware of medicines pricing in the US , and what a problem both parties have with it.


????

Ha ha


even the democrats have problems with healthcare and raising taxation.
Are you even aware of the subject matter you are discussing. Because you are acting like you just stepped into the room and everyone else has been discussing it for ages.

I cant believe you are not aware of medicines pricing in the US , and what a problem both parties have with it.


????

ELM327

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ive more than paid back for it now anyway.

Ditto.


A point often lost on these liberals or dole apologists.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

I paid for my own secondary education via an academic scholarship to a private school.
Primary education is of course availed of. See above post, no one claims to aspire to 0% government spending as above. In the real world 0% equates to minimal

No you did not!

Excuse me sir but private schools in this country are funded by the State. They could not stay open if that wasnt the case.

It appears you actually dont know the inner workings of Ireland at all.

This is such any easy thing to dismiss, why did you bother even bringing it up.

Beggars belief

Captain Obvious

ELM327 wrote: »

Ditto.


A point often lost on these liberals or dole apologists.

Not really. The point of social programs and public schools is to give people that start and that help so that in the future they can pay back. So you are a classic example of why public funded education works.

Eric Cartman

listermint wrote: »

No you did not!

Excuse me sir but private schools in this country are funded by the State. They could not stay open if that wasnt the case.

It appears you actually dont know the inner workings of Ireland at all.

This is such any easy thing to dismiss, why did you bother even bringing it up.

Beggars belief

So before the world got into a welfare state mentality and before the state paid for everyones education and before free healthcare what happened ? did everyone die at 6 , could nobody read ? no.

Carry

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Lots of countries don't have a minimum wage, it removes the bottom rungs from the income ladder, Germany doesn't have a minimum wage.

Yes, Germany has a minimum wage, as have almost all EU-countries. I would like to encourage you to check your facts first before posting your wishful thoughts.

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

See, Eric Cartman, this is the type of post I was cautioning you about above. You're not allowed to have a capitalist viewpoint around here or you will be met with derision.



0% taxation and 0% governance is not plausible or practicable. But, 100% socialism is also not practicable.


Capitalism in the real world means striving for as low taxation and as low governance and government spending as possible.

Nobody is saying you can't have any viewpoint you like, merely that you should have a basis for that viewpoint.

And neither yourself or Eric has been able to show any example of capitalism working without the benefit of a base of socialism. Even you yourself have acknowledged that the support of the state left you in a position to be able to maximise your skills.

Under capitalism, you would have been cast aside or not being good enough. Socialism, through education, healthcare and financial support, gave you the opportunity to overcome some disadvantages. Yet you seem to want no more socialism for any one else.

Capitalism is the real world means taking advantage of the socialist base to maximise oneself. No one is arguing for 100% socialism, but this refrain that people like Cortex, or Sanders etc are wrong and dirty because of socialism is simply being ignorant of what socialism actually does.

You have bought into the notion that socialism is akin to communism, a welfare only state where nobody does anything. But that is not it all.