Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Christy42

Celticfire wrote: »

B0jangles wrote: »

Did you hear that they've started to deport people with valid US birth certs? Only hispanic-looking people of course, the kind that are probably illegals, despite evidence to the contrary.


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/us-denying-passports-to-american-citizens/index.html

Wow .... just wow. Did you even read the link you posted. " Started"? Well that's a barefaced lie.

According to the Post report, the issue stems from a government allegation that from the 1950s through the 1990s, midwives and physicians working along the border issued US birth certificates to babies born in Mexico, which some birth attendants have admitted to in court.
The State Department denies changing its "policy or practice regarding the adjudication of passport applications." The agency also said the border region "happens to be an area of the country where there has been a significant incidence of citizenship fraud."

CNN cannot independently verify they have surged under President Trump.

Surged.... you mean they didn't just start?

The State Department pushed back against the Post's reporting, saying: "domestic passport denials are at the lowest rate in six years for midwife cases. Twenty eight percent of these passport cases were denied in 2017 compared to 36 percent in 2015 under the Obama Administration."

Arthur, who requested anonymity because he fears retribution from immigration officials, was born through a midwife. He told CNN he's had his passport renewal request denied twice -- once during the Obama administration, and again this year.

At least read what you link to.

From elsewhere in the article " but immigration attorneys suggest a significant change"

Or the bit about scrutiny into these cases largely ending around 2009 (having started under W) and picking up under the Trump regime.

Or the guy you mentioned being denied under Obama was accepted in 2008 and now the bar is higher than it was then. Essentially they are saying the bar has been moved higher.

Starting should be put as restarting admittedly given it seems to have stopped in 2009 (and the Obama example is 2008).

As for the state departments claims. Well I would wait for further evidence of this. This administration has done little to help trust. In addition to this they stated before that they do not release information on fraud (and quickly changed their minds) and leave out key data in terms of how they are classifying these cases in spite of requests from the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-denying-passports-to-americans-along-the-border-throwing-their-citizenship-into-question/2018/08/29/1d630e84-a0da-11e8-a3dd-2a1991f075d5_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e36b6cbbd4e3

B0jangles

Celticfire wrote: »

No you got caught out with a barefaced lie and haven't the balls to admit it. It's a completely different story to how you painted it.
How is going from 36% in 2015 to 28% "massively increasing"?

I made a mistake in the early morning! My making a mistake does not actually invalidate the story, nor does it invalidate the 500+ other instances of the Trump administration doing incredibly shady things.


Kepp picking away at my mistake all you like, it's not going to make the Mueller investigation go away, nor is it going to make Trump any less grotesquely unfit for the job he has.

Dohnjoe

Accurate tweet from Brian klass (US political scientist) in response to Trump's brain-melting tweets from yesterday

"No exaggeration: if any other elected leader in a Western democracy tried to instruct their top law enforcement official to shield their political allies from prosecution for political reasons like this, they would be forced to resign within hours. This is insane."

Leroy42

And yet almost nothing. Another poster claimed patience, and I get it overall in terms of Russia and Mueller, but this tweet, and this is simply the most outlandish of his tweets concerning Sessions, should be a step too far.

This should receive immediate sanction from the House and Senate.

everlast75

Celticfire wrote: »

No you got caught out with a barefaced lie and haven't the balls to admit it. It's a completely different story to how you painted it.

Hang on a wee second.

This is the fourth thread on DJT. I think that makes it over 40,000 posts. The fact that you;

1) Jump so readily on one which was arguable means you are extremely keen to claim a victory, no matter how minuscule

2) Are silent on the vast majority of other posts tells me you have to know that he has done and continues to do such an appalling and indefensible job

Dohnjoe

Leroy42 wrote: »

This should receive immediate sanction from the House and Senate.

Trump has 90% or so support from Republican voters, there'll be nothing from the Rep House or Senate except for a few meek/mild comments.

oscarBravo

aloyisious wrote: »

It leave's me wondering if Don has started to believe the spin he has put on things. Sad man if he does.

I keep coming back to the only logical explanation of literally everything Trump says and does: the man is insane. It's not that he has started to believe his own spin; he's incapable of believing anything other than whatever conforms to his narcissistic self-image.

Sadder if the GOP on the hill believe it as well, instead of being politically cynical about what he says.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Trump has 90% or so support from Republican voters, there'll be nothing from the Rep House or Senate except for a few meek/mild comments.

This is the other thing I keep saying: the USA is no longer a normal, functioning society. The Brian Klass tweet quoted earlier sums it up perfectly.

BabyCheeses

Celticfire wrote: »

No you got caught out with a barefaced lie and haven't the balls to admit it. It's a completely different story to how you painted it.



How is going from 36% in 2015 to 28% "massively increasing"?

You'll be supporting his/her run for president in 2020 I guess.

Stallingrad

Those tweets, and the deafening silence to them are deeply concerning. T is again testing the water, if there is no reaction to this it tells him there will be no reaction to the next step, whatever that is. The silence of the GOP is verging on treasonous at this stage.

Celticfire

everlast75 wrote: »

Hang on a wee second.

This is the fourth thread on DJT. I think that makes it over 40,000 posts. The fact that you;

1) Jump so readily on one which was arguable means you are extremely keen to claim a victory, no matter how minuscule

2) Are silent on the vast majority of other posts tells me you have to know that he has done and continues to do such an appalling and indefensible job

You do love your numbered bullet points.....

1) It was a blatant lie.... the fact that it was thanked and not questioned or challenged in any way shows that once someone posts something attacking Trump there will be no challenge as to the actual facts contained in the article.

2) Why bother when there is no debate. The majority of contributors to this thread haven't or wouldn't concede a single point made that would go against their bias. If I posted as blatant a lie that happened to be Pro Trump I'd be torn apart in this thread.

PopePalpatine

Leroy42 wrote: »

The Sessions tweet is staggering.

POTUS job is to uphold and defend the constitution, and yet again we have Trump attempting to interfere in the workings of the legal system for political gain.

And nobody seems overly bothered about it.

Don't you know "law and order" is only for blue-collar, brown-skinned criminals?

Dohnjoe

Celticfire wrote: »

2) Why bother when there is no debate.

That is the point, there is little credible or logical debate on the issue because the consensus is overwhelming. Conversely you'll find there is a colourful and varied debate over plenty of other world leaders on these forums.

Dohnjoe

Celticfire wrote: »

1) It was a blatant lie

Not to chop up the post, but you are really walking into that one considering the subject matter

Leroy42

Celticfire wrote: »

You do love your numbered bullet points.....

1) It was a blatant lie.... the fact that it was thanked and not questioned or challenged in any way shows that once someone posts something attacking Trump there will be no challenge as to the actual facts contained in the article.

2) Why bother when there is no debate. The majority of contributors to this thread haven't or wouldn't concede a single point made that would go against their bias. If I posted as blatant a lie that happened to be Pro Trump I'd be torn apart in this thread.

It seems a bit much to claim it as a blatant lie, when the poster has admitted to a mistake and corrected it. Can you show that the posters intent was to lie?

You are making out that changing 'starting' to 'surging' completely changes the story. It doesn't. It is clear that this is yet another step in the process of Trump attacking certain sections of people in order to fulfill what he believes is his mandate. The fact he didn't start it doesn't change the ideology behind it.

Your second point is demonstrably false, since the poster themselves has conceded the point to you. If you posted a blatant lie, then people would call you out on it, as you did. Would you accept it and accept that you were wrong?

Christy42

Celticfire wrote: »

everlast75 wrote: »

Hang on a wee second.

This is the fourth thread on DJT. I think that makes it over 40,000 posts. The fact that you;

1) Jump so readily on one which was arguable means you are extremely keen to claim a victory, no matter how minuscule

2) Are silent on the vast majority of other posts tells me you have to know that he has done and continues to do such an appalling and indefensible job

You do love your numbered bullet points.....

1) It was a blatant lie.... the fact that it was thanked and not questioned or challenged in any way shows that once someone posts something attacking Trump there will be no challenge as to the actual facts contained in the article.

2) Why bother when there is no debate. The majority of contributors to this thread haven't or wouldn't concede a single point made that would go against their bias. If I posted as blatant a lie that happened to be Pro Trump I'd be torn apart in this thread.

36% to 28% is not confirmed though as we have no idea if they are calculating it the same way in both time periods. Right now that story has not confirmed to be wrong or a lie. Have they changed what constitutes a midwife case or what constitutes pass? We don't know so the numbers are meaningless until this changes.

It is a state department message and they have absolutely refused to back it up when asked.

In fact they refused to supply any information when the story was being written claiming they had a policy against releasing information on this. Then when the story was written they threw away this policy before hiding behind it again when their numbers were questioned.

Celticfire

B0jangles wrote: »

Did you hear that they've started to deport people with valid US birth certs? Only hispanic-looking people of course, the kind that are probably illegals, despite evidence to the contrary.




Lol, I meant to go back and edit that post I made at 7.23 this morning to change the word 'started' to 'massively increased', but I didn't get around to it until now.

Leroy42 wrote: »

It seems a bit much to claim it as a blatant lie, when the poster has admitted to a mistake and corrected it. Can you show that the posters intent was to lie?

There is no similarity whatsoever in this context between the word "started" and the phrase "massively increased". It was a deliberate statement with the ubiquitous racist element thrown in for good measure that the poster made.

You are making out that changing 'starting' to 'surging' completely changes the story. It doesn't. It is clear that this is yet another step in the process of Trump attacking certain sections of people in order to fulfill what he believes is his mandate. The fact he didn't start it doesn't change the ideology behind it.

I have challenged this posters lie that Trump started it. Period. They made a statement and I (unlike other posters ) called them out on it. I had a problem with the statement that the poster passed off as a fact.

Your second point is demonstrably false, since the poster themselves has conceded the point to you. If you posted a blatant lie, then people would call you out on it, as you did. Would you accept it and accept that you were wrong?

I accept that they got caught out and completely changed what they said because they knew that what they said was demonstrably false.

Christy42 wrote: »

36% to 28% is not confirmed though as we have no idea if they are calculating it the same way in both time periods. Right now that story has not confirmed to be wrong or a lie. Have they changed what constitutes a midwife case or what constitutes pass? We don't know so the numbers are meaningless until this changes.

It is a state department message and they have absolutely refused to back it up when asked.

In fact they refused to supply any information when the story was being written claiming they had a policy against releasing information on this. Then when the story was written they threw away this policy before hiding behind it again when their numbers were questioned.

So you you don't want to believe the state department but will happily give credence to anecdotal evidence from Immigration lawyers.

Dohnjoe

Celticfire wrote: »

I have challenged this posters lie that Trump started it. Period.

It does seem to have been a mistake, but anyway. Without pushing the issue, this does beg the glaring question, how do you reconcile the fact that Trump lies on such a consistent basis if you feel so strongly about the above?

Wouldn't that appear to represent inconsistent principles?

aloyisious

The Washington Post is following up on the story that the W/H claims executive privilege on over 100,000 papers from the time SC Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh was a lawyer in the W/H. It includes a complaint from Senator Chuck Schumer about the late release of other Kavanaugh papers from the GW Bush Presidency era. It might seem that there is a concerted purpose behind the W/H withholding of papers and the GW Bush pages release to swamp and confuse those likely to oppose or question the nomination, which is due to occur shortly.

As the WaPo is seen by some as a doubtful source of truthful news, I found this in the Stars & Stripes newspaper.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/executive-privilege-cited-in-withholding-100-000-pages-of-kavanaugh-s-white-house-records-1.545519

It seems that the GW Bush Kavanaugh-pages release number to over 415,000, way in excess of the E/P withheld papers. The Stars & Stripes story refers to the W/H papers as pages same as in the Bush releases. There is agreement between the W/H and the Bush people on the withholding of papers/pages on legal grounds, seemingly based on talks with the DOJ. I can't imagine that it would be safe for naysayers to attack the veracity of the Stars & Stripes newspaper story.

EDIT. The Presidential Records Act allows both the former administration and the current White House to claim privilege on presidential documents. A White House spokesman, Raj Shah, said Saturday that he will let the letter- from the Bush records keeper - first reported by The Associated Press, speak for itself. End-edit.

B0jangles

Hang on, I quickly, openly and repeatedly admitted that my original wording was incorrect, and went back and changed it when this was pointed out.

I did not, as Trump would have done - claim to have been misquoted, despite there being inarguable evidence to the contrary, nor did I start deflecting away from my own error to point out that other people have also made mistakes therefore my mistake doesn't matter, as Trump's defenders invariably do.

I didn't even delete my own incorrect wording; I left it there for all to see, with the corrected text added in afterwards.

Because I believe that openness and transparency are important.

prawnsambo

B0jangles wrote: »

Hang on, I quickly, openly and repeatedly admitted that my original wording was incorrect, and went back and changed it when this was pointed out.

I did not, as Trump would have done - claim to have been misquoted, despite there being inarguable evidence to the contrary, nor did I start deflecting away from my own error to point out that other people have also made mistakes therefore my mistake doesn't matter, as Trump's defenders invariably do.

I didn't even delete my own incorrect wording; I left it there for all to see, with the corrected text added in afterwards.

Because I believe that openness and transparency are important.

Yes, but you didn't double down on it. Comparisons with Trump fall down right there.

Fwiw, I read the article and felt that the mistake you made didn't really affect the overall thrust of what it said. Either way. Unfortunately I'm finding it necessary to check everything that's posted here because there's often a disconnect between how it's editorialised and what it actually says.

aloyisious

Stallingrad wrote: »

Those tweets, and the deafening silence to them are deeply concerning. T is again testing the water, if there is no reaction to this it tells him there will be no reaction to the next step, whatever that is. The silence of the GOP is verging on treasonous at this stage.

I suspect that there will be a move, after the Kavanaugh nomination success to the SC, by Don directly against Jeff Sessions in a sacking - or maybe an agreed retirement - move while the success is a distraction story. An alternative is for JS to get rid of Rod Rosenstein [with Don's blessing] as a quid pro quo to end to the row between the honourable gent and Don. The next step would be inevitable, from Don's POV, amongst others.

Christy42

Celticfire wrote: »

B0jangles wrote: »

Did you hear that they've started to deport people with valid US birth certs? Only hispanic-looking people of course, the kind that are probably illegals, despite evidence to the contrary.




Lol, I meant to go back and edit that post I made at 7.23 this morning to change the word 'started' to 'massively increased', but I didn't get around to it until now.

Leroy42 wrote: »

It seems a bit much to claim it as a blatant lie, when the poster has admitted to a mistake and corrected it. Can you show that the posters intent was to lie?

There is no similarity whatsoever in this context between the word "started" and the phrase "massively increased". It was a deliberate statement with the ubiquitous racist element thrown in for good measure that the poster made.

You are making out that changing 'starting' to 'surging' completely changes the story. It doesn't. It is clear that this is yet another step in the process of Trump attacking certain sections of people in order to fulfill what he believes is his mandate. The fact he didn't start it doesn't change the ideology behind it.

I have challenged this posters lie that Trump started it. Period. They made a statement and I (unlike other posters ) called them out on it. I had a problem with the statement that the poster passed off as a fact.

Your second point is demonstrably false, since the poster themselves has conceded the point to you. If you posted a blatant lie, then people would call you out on it, as you did. Would you accept it and accept that you were wrong?

I accept that they got caught out and completely changed what they said because they knew that what they said was demonstrably false.

Christy42 wrote: »

36% to 28% is not confirmed though as we have no idea if they are calculating it the same way in both time periods. Right now that story has not confirmed to be wrong or a lie. Have they changed what constitutes a midwife case or what constitutes pass? We don't know so the numbers are meaningless until this changes.

It is a state department message and they have absolutely refused to back it up when asked.

In fact they refused to supply any information when the story was being written claiming they had a policy against releasing information on this. Then when the story was written they threw away this policy before hiding behind it again when their numbers were questioned.

So you you don't want to believe the state department but will happily give credence to anecdotal evidence from Immigration lawyers.

I feel like it deserves further investigation. This administration needs to be challenged on everything until they learn they need to give facts. Too many lies have come home to roost.

The immigration lawyers are on the ground seeing what is happening.

What we need are the full facts. Indeed being proper journalists the Washington Post has made repeated requests from the people who have it who are currently not releasing it. Well I am certainly not believing the people who refuse to release the data out of hand.

Celticfire

B0jangles wrote: »

Hang on, I quickly, openly and repeatedly admitted that my original wording was incorrect, and went back and changed it when this was pointed out.

I did not, as Trump would have done - claim to have been misquoted, despite there being inarguable evidence to the contrary, nor did I start deflecting away from my own error to point out that other people have also made mistakes therefore my mistake doesn't matter, as Trump's defenders invariably do.

I didn't even delete my own incorrect wording; I left it there for all to see, with the corrected text added in afterwards.

Because I believe that openness and transparency are important.

Your original wording and your subsequent change have completely different meanings and connitations. How could you not admit that it was incorrect?
We can go around in circles all day but I've said my piece and you've said yours.......

B0jangles

I openly said my original wording was incorrect and went back and changed it. What more do you want?

It almost feels like you were all ready to have a long-running Trump-style argument about this one point and you don't know what to do now that no-one wants to play.

everlast75

Celticfire wrote: »

Your original wording and your subsequent change have completely different meanings and connitations. How could you not admit that it was incorrect?
We can go around in circles all day but I've said my piece and you've said yours.......

Any chance you could say your piece in relation to someone who cannot say he was incorrect, or do you save your anger for those whose lies don't materially affect the day to day lives of millions?

Because otherwise.... the horse is looking mightily high

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1036939481352495104?s=19

Rjd2

Corkblowin wrote: »

Can’t embed the tweet, but I wonder how the Donald will take Nike making Colin Kaepernick the face of their new ‘just do it’ campaign (he started the NFL players protest & had not been given a contract for the coming season).

‘Believe in something- even if it means sacrificing everything’

They obviously see value in doing it, but it’s good to see big business making some kind of a moral stance

Nothing whatsoever to do with moral reasons.

They get loads of attention by selling shoes that are made in Vietnamese sweatshops to people who believe they are woke as while Kasp gets seriously paid.

Its capitalism 101, those are cheering or moaning about this incessantly really should know this by now.

mcmoustache

Rjd2 wrote: »

Nothing whatsoever to do with moral reasons.

This is it exactly. You can be sure that Nike studied their consumer demographic information and made a cost/benefit analysis before doing this. There's no way that they would get mixed up in politics unless they were sure that there was a profit to be made.

listermint

mcmoustache wrote: »

This is it exactly. You can be sure that Nike studied their consumer demographic information and made a cost/benefit analysis before doing this. There's no way that they would get mixed up in politics unless they were sure that there was a profit to be made.

Im yet to see a post where anyone has indicated any different.

Im struggling to find the outrage from you guys on it ?

Rjd2

listermint wrote: »

Im yet to see a post where anyone has indicated any different.

Im struggling to find the outrage from you guys on it ?

Doesn't bother me whatsoever, I think Kasp is right to peacefully protest and have said it before on other threads.

Referring to how much of twitter etc it seemed to dominate last night and how hot lefties and righties got over it. Credit to Nike it for it, they got the reaction they wanted indeed.

I think what has been said above isn't really aimed at anyone on the thread but more interweb in general.

everlast75

Rjd2 wrote: »

Doesn't bother me whatsoever, I think Kasp is right to peacefully protest and have said it before on other threads.

Referring to how much of twitter etc it seemed to dominate last night and how hot lefties and righties got over it. Credit to Nike it for it, they got the reaction they wanted indeed.

I think what has been said above isn't really aimed at anyone on the thread but more interweb in general.

My reading of it is that the left are poking holes in the wave of anti-Nike commentary of the right, who are calling him unpatriotic and destroying their Nike gear in protest. At least, that's all that I have seen so far.