St Pat's Inchicore Plan

Pixel Eater

Saint Patrick's Athletic Football Club proposed building a 12,000 seater stadium on the site of St. Michael's Estate in Inchicore last April.

http://www.the42.ie/st-patricks-athletic-stadium-plans-3951440-Apr2018/

From the start I was quite sceptical; this was public land in a city with a major housing and homeless crisis, how could they possibly get away with building a stadium there instead of housing, even with the various amenities attached. In addition St. Pat's are a pretty poorly supported team, average crowds would hover just above the 1,000 mark; so a 12,000 capacity stadium seemed a bit overly ambitious.

Anyway it was announced that the stadium wouldn't go ahead and 470 housing units would be built instead. However St Pat's plans was suppose to deliver over 500 housing units, but I'm baffled in just how they intended to build a whole stadium and more housing than the Council intends to, just doesn't add up. There is scant details on the housing side of Pat's proposal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0723/980532-st-michaels-estate-inchicore/

A sensible decision by the Minister or a missed opportunity to create a vibrant urban centre?

a very cool kid

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Saint Patrick's Athletic Football Club proposed building a 12,000 seater stadium on the site of St. Michael's Estate in Inchicore last April.

http://www.the42.ie/st-patricks-athletic-stadium-plans-3951440-Apr2018/

From the start I was quite sceptical; this was public land in a city with a major housing and homeless crisis, how could they possibly get away with building a stadium there instead of housing, even with the various amenities attached. In addition St. Pat's are a pretty poorly supported team, average crowds would hover just above the 1,000 mark; so a 12,000 capacity stadium seemed a bit overly ambitious.

Anyway it was announced that the stadium wouldn't go ahead and 470 housing units would be built instead. However St Pat's plans was suppose to deliver over 500 housing units, but I'm baffled in just how they intended to build a whole stadium and more housing than the Council intends to, just doesn't add up. There is scant details on the housing side of Pat's proposal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0723/980532-st-michaels-estate-inchicore/

A sensible decision by the Minister or a missed opportunity to create a vibrant urban centre?

Housing units = flats I would think

St pats plan would have brought some amenities to a pretty rough area. The current plan is really rebuilding another rough estate.

Pats planned to swap the existing site for the St Michaels estate. As regards attendances - if you build it they will come....

Mike Hoch

This cost rental scheme sounds like a load of nonsense anyway. 25 percent below the market rate for working families. At the moment that would be circa 1200 per month for a 3 bed. Does someone in the government think working people paying 1200 whle trying to save for a mortgage is reasonable?!? It's better than the standard now but it's still rubbish, particularly if half the estate is going to be a home for life for those on lower or social incomes. The affordable scheme built in Ballymun showed that terraced three bed housing can be built for around the 140K mark for costs and labour (lnd having been provided by the council). Any LA quoting figures like 280K per unit has clearly had their palm greased by the developer in question.

Mike Hoch

a very cool kid wrote: »

Pats planned to swap the existing site for the St Michaels estate. As regards attendances - if you build it they will come....

Indeed. The tides are turning. People in Ireland are slowly losing interest in the premier league. The money, the repetitiveness, the consistent let downs by the biggest supported clubs in this country, the splitting of the TV rights three ways making packages out of reach. I don't see Pats selling 12,000 apart from derbies, pre season friendlies and big European nights but to even push their regular attendance to 6000 would be an achievement for Irish football.

Arcade_Tryer

Mike Hoch wrote: »

Does someone in the government think working people paying 1200 whle trying to save for a mortgage is reasonable?!?

It's incredibly reasonable given the current market; single workers are paying significant more than that in Dublin for poorer quality shared rental accommodation.

L1011

Mike Hoch wrote: »

Does someone in the government think working people paying 1200 whle trying to save for a mortgage is reasonable?!? .

The intention is that you won't be saving for a mortgage due to security of tenure etc etc.

Uncapping the differential rent scheme* for social housing would be an easier and more sensible thing here. Build more social housing, as a % while fixing the lists bring in people who would never qualify for social housing currently but are having severe trouble privately renting or buying. Get a different mix of tenants and also a higher rent roll allowing the construction of more social housing, repeat ad infinitum

Vote FG and FF and you get these half-arsed schemes that benefit private landlords and builders.




*for social housing you pay a % of income, up to a cap. That cap is massively below market rates, a tiny fraction these days. So it is insane to offer it it to people on decent incomes

Pixel Eater

I'm not convinced by the St. Pat's proposal at all. Firstly it's just too big; Pat's would get between 3-4k on a good day - only a few matches a season - so the 12k is pie in the sky stuff. They may fill it for a pre-season friendly against cross-channel bit hitter or an occasion European tie but it hardly justifies building a stadium of that scale.

The amenities argument isn't particular strong either. Inchicore maybe a little lacking in this area but at the end of the day it's a fairly central location a mere 20 minute bus trip from the city centre. There is already empty unit's in Inchicore, a few thousand extra people in the area would make these spaces more attractive for businesses to move into.

My main concern though would be the housing factor; 520 was the number mentioned therefore they planned to build a whole stadium and more housing than the council's proposals. I just don't see how that would be possible. It would mean that the 520 would have to be constructed on the much smaller Richmond Park site meaning a much higher density and, presumably, higher rise. Would that have been allowed?

And would they expect to pay for all this? They are a fairly small club after all. Did they expect the public land to be bequeath to them and in return they would build the facilities while Richmond Park would be privately sold to fund it, which would have meant private housing?

Pixel Eater

L1011 wrote: »

The intention is that you won't be saving for a mortgage due to security of tenure etc etc.

Uncapping the differential rent scheme* for social housing would be an easier and more sensible thing here. Build more social housing, as a % while fixing the lists bring in people who would never qualify for social housing currently but are having severe trouble privately renting or buying. Get a different mix of tenants and also a higher rent roll allowing the construction of more social housing, repeat ad infinitum

Vote FG and FF and you get these half-arsed schemes that benefit private landlords and builders.




*for social housing you pay a % of income, up to a cap. That cap is massively below market rates, a tiny fraction these days. So it is insane to offer it it to people on decent incomes

Absolutely right. Add get rid of the ludicrous cap and raise the minimum charged; housing needs to be payed for somehow.

hatrickpatrick

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's incredibly reasonable given the current market; single workers are paying significant more than that in Dublin for poorer quality shared rental accommodation.

But that's not reasonable either. Rents need to come down across the board. The solution isn't to bring cost rentals up to match the market, market rents need to be forced down somehow.

Pixel Eater

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But that's not reasonable either. Rents need to come down across the board. The solution isn't to bring cost rentals up to match the market, market rents need to be forced down somehow.

Simpliest solution all round is to just raise the threshold for qualifing for public housing. That means someone on €50/55k could apply thus directly competing with the private market.

SEPT 23 1989

Pats should try and build a stadium in one of working class suburbs of west dublin

L1011

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Simpliest solution all round is to just raise the threshold for qualifing for public housing. That means someone on €50/55k could apply thus directly competing with the private market.

Has to be coupled with returning to at least the rate of social housing construction we had prior to FF coming to power in '97

average_runner

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Pats should try and build a stadium in one of working class suburbs of west dublin

Why does it have to be a working class suburb?

Pixel Eater

L1011 wrote: »

Has to be coupled with returning to at least the rate of social housing construction we had prior to FF coming to power in '97

That would be the idea. The current system of public housing raises such a paltry amount and is arguably the main reason so very little is being built. If there was alot more people in the system earning 50k plus they would be paying alot more rent to the council therefore alot more money would be available to build more housing.

andekwarhola

average_runner wrote: »

Why does it have to be a working class suburb?

It's not a bad idea. I think the likes of Bohemians and Pats are silly to persist with the inner city locations they have and should try and locate to West and North Dublin respectively, like Rovers did in Tallaght.

Phibsboro and Inchicore have a changing and more transient demographic now as well as, especially Phibsboro, increased gentrification. Lots of professionals, renters and most people that grew up in those areas or even nearby probably won't be able to get housing there.

Moving out to spots like Blanchardstown or Adamstown would give them the right demographic for football support:large population, lots of estates with settled residents and more families.

Places like Tallaght for example have that 'suburb as a large town' civic identity that seems to have worked for Rovers.

Mike Hoch

andekwarhola wrote: »

It's not a bad idea. I think the likes of Bohemians and Pats are silly to persist with the inner city locations they have and should try and locate to West and North Dublin respectively, like Rovers did in Tallaght.

Phibsboro and Inchicore have a changing and more transient demographic now as well as, especially Phibsboro, increased gentrification. Lots of professionals, renters and most people that grew up in those areas or even nearby probably won't be able to get housing there.

Moving out to spots like Blanchardstown or Adamstown would give them the right demographic for football support:large population, lots of estates with settled residents and more families.

Places like Tallaght for example have that 'suburb as a large town' civic identity that seems to have worked for Rovers.

It worked with Tallaght becoming identified with Rovers because they'd been homeless for so long they were no longer tied to an area.

Bohs fans come from across the Northside- public transport wise it's much easier for people, including away fans, to reach Phibsborough than a green field site in Blanch, particularly trying to get there in Friday evening rush hour. Not to mention anyone in Blanch who wants to go to Dalyer is well served by buses as it is.