Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Shefwedfan

durthacht wrote: »

Depends on the question he was asked though. The media is very Carbery focused so maybe the question was about Carbery rather than both?

Newstalk are especially and almost bizarrely Carbery centric. Almost every discussion asks "just how brilliant is Joey Carbery?" rather than critically analysing his performance.

He's a super player, but their discussions about him are a bit weird.

Ask Newstalk about Zebo and you see a whole new level of gushing....

Listening to off the ball there it sounds like Kearney may not play this November.

Squidgy Black

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Listening to off the ball there it sounds like Kearney may not play this November.

I wouldn't be too shocked, he still hasn't trained since the Treviso game. He only got 6 minutes in that game, and before that the last time he played was the Wasps match. So Joe is faced with choosing a not 100% fit player who hasn't had a lot of minutes this season or trying out one of his backup options.

stephen_n

Wonder will we maybe see Conway at 15 this week, with a view to deciding who is the safer bet for the All Blacks.

Kevski

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I wouldn't be too shocked, he still hasn't trained since the Treviso game. He only got 6 minutes in that game, and before that the last time he played was the Wasps match. So Joe is faced with choosing a not 100% fit player who hasn't had a lot of minutes this season or trying out one of his backup options.

Kearney has actually played a good bit of rugby this season (over 300mins including 47 against Treviso iirc) so I would have thought that he should be good to go if he can prove his fitness.

jonok28

Kevski wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I wouldn't be too shocked, he still hasn't trained since the Treviso game. He only got 6 minutes in that game, and before that the last time he played was the Wasps match. So Joe is faced with choosing a not 100% fit player who hasn't had a lot of minutes this season or trying out one of his backup options.

Kearney has actually played a good bit of rugby this season (over 300mins including 47 against Treviso iirc) so I would have thought that he should be good to go if he can prove his fitness.

Obviously we all want to win the November Series games but I wouldn't risk guys like Kearney and Murray that are carrying knocks, we have the squad depth that allows for some of our big players to take a step back and get fully healthy,  Our main goal should be making sure our best players are healthy for the World Cup. Larmour, Conway, Earls, Henshaw and Addison can all play Full back and McGrath, Marmion and Cooney can play scrum half so use the depth and see if any of these guys can step in and stake a claim for the jersey down the line.

wise7

durthacht wrote: »

Depends on the question he was asked though. The media is very Carbery focused so maybe the question was about Carbery rather than both?

Newstalk are especially and almost bizarrely Carbery centric. Almost every discussion asks "just how brilliant is Joey Carbery?" rather than critically analysing his performance.

He's a super player, but their discussions about him are a bit weird.

A lot of it has to do with 'lazy journalism' (and is not confined to Newstalk) especially when the subject is one of the 'annointed ones' as is the case with Joey ever since the Graham Henry endorsement issued after a training session back in Summer 2016. Surprisingly JS has perpetuated the 'special talent' tag attaching to Joey in spite of a number of demonstrations of his shortcomings in game management and defence which are always put down to him just needing more time at 10 to learn - well the train leaves the station for Tokyo in just 10 months and we don't have that sort of time to find out if the 'preferred' playmaker in waiting can learn the basics of the job.

troyzer

The All Blacks are not invincible. Even with Marmion and Larmour in, we can still beat them. Especially at home and especially if they pick up a knock or too this weekend.

They've looked very vulnerable this year, loads of handling errors and defensively they're quite fragile.

We can and probably will put up some points on them. The game will be won and lost at the breakdown, deny Aaron Smith his quick recycle and make them throw bodies at the ruck.

We can do this and to do it without handsome Rob and Murray would be a huge psychological boost.

Burkie1203

Should we be worried.

https://twitter.com/jameslowenz/status/1060485079527579648?s=19

Squidgy Black

It's probably a good thing to note that this isn't a must-win game either. Obviously it'd be brilliant to beat them and be a big boost going in to the WC, but there's no seeding at stake or anything like that. If we lose this, it's not the end of the world. It's just the perfect game to see where we are against the best side in the world at present.

Heymans

When's the team being announced?

Buer

Good interview with Cian Healy on this week's LW podcast. I think this interview gave the best insight into Schmidt as a coach that I've heard so far.

Very much a different type of bloke to any of the others and marches to his own beat. I'd imagine he's something of a difficult enough bloke to manage at times as he has very clear and distinct ideas about what's best for him (squared up to Leinster's S&C coach as a youngster when they disagreed over his gym work, feigned injury to Cheika in training to avoid having to practice throwing in case he was viewed as versatile and a better bench option).

Funny to hear his blunt thoughts on the pyschological side of things and his dismissal of them when he was going through a loss of form. Wouldn't imagine he has someone like Enda McNulty on speed dial.

With that said, he also comes across as completely down to earth and fully dedicated to his craft whilst retaining a real hunger to develop interests outside the sport. I didn't realise he suffered significant nerve damage to his hand in recent seasons and had to give up painting completely as he couldn't return to the same standard he was at. Luke Fitz also mentioned at that point that he suffered with loss of feeling for multiple months with his own nerve issues which ultimately forced his retirement.

Richie_Rich89

Heymans wrote: »

When's the team being announced?

Around lunchtime

wise7

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Around lunchtime

Ireland:

15. Jordan Larmour
14. Keith Earls
13. Bundee Aki
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Kieran Marmion

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Iain Henderson
5. James Ryan
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. CJ Stander.

Replacements:

16. Sean Cronin
17. Jack McGrath
18. Andrew Porter
19. Devin Toner
20. Dan Leavy
21. Luke McGrath
22. Joey Carbery
23. Andrew Conway.

Pretty strong leinster team

Clegg

Could do with a bit of Noel at 12 tho.

Heymans

wise7 wrote: »

A lot of it has to do with 'lazy journalism' (and is not confined to Newstalk) especially when the subject is one of the 'annointed ones' as is the case with Joey ever since the Graham Henry endorsement issued after a training session back in Summer 2016. Surprisingly JS has perpetuated the 'special talent' tag attaching to Joey in spite of a number of demonstrations of his shortcomings in game management and defence which are always put down to him just needing more time at 10 to learn - well the train leaves the station for Tokyo in just 10 months and we don't have that sort of time to find out if the 'preferred' playmaker in waiting can learn the basics of the job.

Joey is clearly a better defender than Byrne and his supposed shortcomings are invented by you. As to game management I would point to the NZ game 2 years ago in which Joey came on and closed out the game from flyhalf. Carberry is clearly the better player than Byrne at the moment he fails to impose his mark in big games.

wise7

Heymans wrote: »

Joey is clearly a better defender than Byrne and his supposed shortcomings are invented by you. As to game management I would point to the NZ game 2 years ago in which Joey came on and closed out the game from flyhalf. Carberry is clearly the better player than Byrne at the moment he fails to impose his mark in big games.

Gavin Comiskey is not my favourite journalist in the World but even he could count Joey's 5 missed tackles in the first half on Saturday. Byrne's tackle count as per the Leinster stats over the past 2 seasons is impressive for a 10 and defence is one his strongest features. On game management Byrne has excelled against Northampton (twice) Montpellier (twice), Munster (twice) and Exeter to name a few of his bigger games among his 56 appearances for Leinster. Give me one really big example of how Joey has shown he is a comparable game manager apart from his 20 mins against NZ 2 years ago.

Heymans

wise7 wrote: »

Gavin Comiskey is not my favourite journalist in the World but even he could count Joey's 5 missed tackles in the first half on Saturday. Byrne's tackle count as per the Leinster stats over the past 2 seasons is impressive for a 10 and defence is one his strongest features. On game management Byrne has excelled against Northampton (twice) Montpellier (twice), Munster (twice) and Exeter to name a few of his bigger games among his 56 appearances for Leinster. Give me one really big example of how Joey has shown he is a comparable game manager apart from his 20 mins against NZ 2 years ago.

He was played at fullback for Leinster so he didn't really get the chance to show his game management for Leinster but the games he was at outhalf we tended to have an attacking nous that Byrne doesn't bring out in teams. I would cite the Munster European games this season as to how he can bring other backs onto the ball the way Byrne can't because he doesn't pose a threat to the opposition defensive line. Exeter games we were very lucky to win both so wouldn't cite that as effective game management. He has his strengths but isn't as positive as Joey with the ball in hand. The ability draw and sometimes beat defenders in the first line of defence is why Joey is a better fly half than Byrne.

arsebiscuits1

Heymans wrote: »

Joey is clearly a better defender than Byrne and his supposed shortcomings are invented by you. As to game management I would point to the NZ game 2 years ago in which Joey came on and closed out the game from flyhalf. Carberry is clearly the better player than Byrne at the moment he fails to impose his mark in big games.

I think of all the skills you want to compare the 2 players with, defense is the most bizarre.

Carbery is not "clearly a better defender than Byrne"

I think it is fair to say Joey is a much poorer defender.

Joey is a technically very good tackler and his ability to get low and complete the tackle is very good.

However he soaks up a tremendous amount of yards and when he is at 10, there are vulnerabilities to quick ball around the corner on second phase.

Byrne is much better at defending the 10 channel. He has an obvious advantage in that he's a few cm and a good few kgs on Joey. But he can stand up the attacker a lot better and force slower ball. Much stronger in contact.

If they were both 15s. Joey is streets ahead. As 10s. Joey is not a better defender.

Probably has most other boxes ticked over Byrne mind you.

Squidgy Black

Joey's size is a little bit of a concern this season. Couple of times he's been absolutely demolished in the tackle.

wise7

Heymans wrote: »

He was played at fullback for Leinster so he didn't really get the chance to show his game management for Leinster but the games he was at outhalf we tended to have an attacking nous that Byrne doesn't bring out in teams. I would cite the Munster European games this season as to how he can bring other backs onto the ball the way Byrne can't because he doesn't pose a threat to the opposition defensive line. Exeter games we were very lucky to win both so wouldn't cite that as effective game management. He has his strengths but isn't as positive as Joey with the ball in hand. The ability draw and sometimes beat defenders in the first line of defence is why Joey is a better fly half than Byrne.

Well I guess we have different interpretations about the primary job of a 10. Joey is good in taking the ball on himself courtesy of his excellent footwork. He is not as good at running the game and it is not just about bringing the other backs onto the ball but it is about calling and directing all of the plays for forwards and backs. Byrne conducts the attack traffic extremely well. Joey quite often waits to see what develops. Yes he can be good at livening it up by making a break and yes he is a good passer but game management is knowing when to do what and to anticipate and plan a number of phases in advance and call the intermediary build-up phases to make that scoring potential play happen. Joey is spontaneous and that is entertaining and exciting to watch. It can also lead to lost ball just as often as it comes good. If you have watched Byrne more recently you will see he is becoming adapt at taking it to the line and using his physical strength to secure critical yards and keep the opposition honest. But it is Byrne's calmness under pressure that allows him see what needs to be managed and for a team that is critical from your pivot and he has the requisite skills of distribution, kicking and defending to make him an overall viable 10. That takes nothing away from Joey being a fantastic and highly skilled rugby player but I don't think he is the better 10 and I do think he is an excellent 15.

Heymans

wise7 wrote: »

Well I guess we have different interpretations about the primary job of a 10. Joey is good in taking the ball on himself courtesy of his excellent footwork. He is not as good at running the game and it is not just about bringing the other backs onto the ball but it is about calling and directing all of the plays for forwards and backs. Byrne conducts the attack traffic extremely well. Joey quite often waits to see what develops. Yes he can be good at livening it up by making a break and yes he is a good passer but game management is knowing when to do what and to anticipate and plan a number of phases in advance and call the intermediary build-up phases to make that scoring potential play happen. Joey is spontaneous and that is entertaining and exciting to watch. It can also lead to lost ball just as often as it comes good. If you have watched Byrne more recently you will see he is becoming adapt at taking it to the line and using his physical strength to secure critical yards and keep the opposition honest. But it is Byrne's calmness under pressure that allows him see what needs to be managed and for a team that is critical from your pivot and he has the requisite skills of distribution, kicking and defending to make him an overall viable 10. That takes nothing away from Joey being a fantastic and highly skilled rugby player but I don't think he is the better 10 and I do think he is an excellent 15.

Being able to play what is in front of you is what separates an average 10 from a great one. All the great tens could manipulate opposition back lines and that’s what Joey has shown he can do. Being able to read a defence and play what is in front of you is what makes an effective 10 not just sitting back in the pocket and allowing the game be dictated to you and playing what’s in front of you. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree but time will tell who the better ten is.

gamma001

Buer wrote: »

Good interview with Cian Healy on this week's LW podcast. I think this interview gave the best insight into Schmidt as a coach that I've heard so far.

Very much a different type of bloke to any of the others and marches to his own beat. I'd imagine he's something of a difficult enough bloke to manage at times as he has very clear and distinct ideas about what's best for him (squared up to Leinster's S&C coach as a youngster when they disagreed over his gym work, feigned injury to Cheika in training to avoid having to practice throwing in case he was viewed as versatile and a better bench option).

Funny to hear his blunt thoughts on the pyschological side of things and his dismissal of them when he was going through a loss of form. Wouldn't imagine he has someone like Enda McNulty on speed dial.

With that said, he also comes across as completely down to earth and fully dedicated to his craft whilst retaining a real hunger to develop interests outside the sport. I didn't realise he suffered significant nerve damage to his hand in recent seasons and had to give up painting completely as he couldn't return to the same standard he was at. Luke Fitz also mentioned at that point that he suffered with loss of feeling for multiple months with his own nerve issues which ultimately forced his retirement.

LW? Which podcast is that? Interested in checking it out

sullivlo

The left wing with Luke Fitz

Thermoman12

What do you lads think of the Leinster performance against the southern kings?

sydthebeat

Thermoman12 wrote: »

What do you lads think of the Leinster performance against the southern kings?

Crazy game, job done.

Thermoman12

sydthebeat wrote: »

Crazy game, job done.

Great to see a few of the younger lads get a chance, thought Conor o brien played well and so did Tom Daly coming back from an injury , interesting to see Hugh O Sullivan come on at fullback at the end

Heymans

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I think of all the skills you want to compare the 2 players with, defense is the most bizarre.

Carbery is not "clearly a better defender than Byrne"

I think it is fair to say Joey is a much poorer defender.

Joey is a technically very good tackler and his ability to get low and complete the tackle is very good.

However he soaks up a tremendous amount of yards and when he is at 10, there are vulnerabilities to quick ball around the corner on second phase.

Byrne is much better at defending the 10 channel. He has an obvious advantage in that he's a few cm and a good few kgs on Joey. But he can stand up the attacker a lot better and force slower ball. Much stronger in contact.

If they were both 15s. Joey is streets ahead. As 10s. Joey is not a better defender.

Probably has most other boxes ticked over Byrne mind you.

Spot on although I don’t think carberry is poor within the system. It’s just he tracks acrosss more and misses cover tackles that Byrne would generally be nowhere near making oUt in the wide channels. He is a better cover defender. And you are right what I was getting at is that his tackling technique is superior to byrne. Might not be as good as reading zone plays as Byrne but he certainly is good at stopping big carriers with his tackling technique

wise7

Heymans wrote: »

Spot on although I don’t think carberry is poor within the system. It’s just he tracks acrosss more and misses cover tackles that Byrne would generally be nowhere near making oUt in the wide channels. He is a better cover defender. And you are right what I was getting at is that his tackling technique is superior to byrne. Might not be as good as reading zone plays as Byrne but he certainly is good at stopping big carriers with his tackling technique

La La Land!