Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

arsebiscuits1

Heymans wrote: »

Unfortunately the game isn't online from what I can see. I would happily trawl through the match footage and show up where Carberry missed those tackles but from memory it wasn't in primary defensive situations. It's hard to make an argument with someone who insists I'm in La La Land and they don't counter any of the arguments I've made. Granted they weren't made backed up with match footage but I'd be surprised if it was the case that those tackles were missed in first phase play.

As you know with statistics they highlight certain viewpoints but don't highlight the full picture of where and why those tackles were missed. It is my estimation that Carberry gets around the pitch more than Byrne and from memory makes more tackles in wide channels than Byrne does. Byrne doesn't have the speed or desire to get around and make those extra hits. It's something I've noticed in his play - he sits back in the pocket and expects an armchair ride both in attack and defence. I've never seen him bust a gut to get across and make a cover tackle but have seen it plenty of times by Carberry.

As to the personal insults or whether I'm talking through my hoop we'll have to wait and see from future match coverage whether what I'm saying makes sense.

Can anyone point me to where I might get access to the game online?

Since you're so uppity, I have the game recorded FWIW I am not providing clips or screenshots. Please take what I say at face value.

I have Joey down for 8 tackles made. 4 missed.

1st miss. Comes at 6:34 on the clock. McGrath sends a box kick much too deep. Their 8 runs away from Beirne and Porter. Joey plants his feet much too early and slips off him. Ringrose and Byrne clean up. Here Joey was in the middle of the pitch on halfway with 2 men outside him in the front line. Where you'd expect a 10 to be on chase.

2nd miss. 7:30 on the clock. This was the big bump. He is stood much too high and Campanaro forces a huge handoff. He has 1 man outside him and his defending on his own 10m line in a pretty wide channel. He is stood outside a pod of forwards defending the Italian pod opposide. Again. Not an unusual place for a 10 to be defending. His centres are out of shot on the other side of the pitch with at least 7 forwards on their feet between them

3rd miss. 23:14 on the clock. Just outside his 22. Got completely flat footed and turned in by some decent Italian runners. Caught in no mans land and man went through the gap. Ball was off a scrum so he was stood in the 10 channel.

4th miss. 26:55 on the clock. Just outside his 22. Bit in on who was Van der Fliers man. Tackle was completed but offload allowed to player who should have been Joeys. Joey was second man in the line outside the ruck with 3 outside him

Of those 4. You could argue that one was a system failure. Off the scrum, VDF should have been off the scrum a bit faster. The other 3 were just flat out poor misses

Of the 8 tackles he made. 2 were first phase off a lineout standing in the 10 channel. None of the tackles were made in the outside channels or as a clean up behind the defensive line. Usually he was second man out from the ruck

Heymans

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Since you're so uppity, I have the game recorded FWIW I am not providing clips or screenshots. Please take what I say at face value.

I have Joey down for 8 tackles made. 4 missed.

1st miss. Comes at 6:34 on the clock. McGrath sends a box kick much too deep. Their 8 runs away from Beirne and Porter. Joey plants his feet much too early and slips off him. Ringrose and Byrne clean up. Here Joey was in the middle of the pitch on halfway with 2 men outside him in the front line. Where you'd expect a 10 to be on chase.

2nd miss. 7:30 on the clock. This was the big bump. He is stood much too high and Campanaro forces a huge handoff. He has 1 man outside him and his defending on his own 10m line in a pretty wide channel. He is stood outside a pod of forwards defending the Italian pod opposide. Again. Not an unusual place for a 10 to be defending. His centres are out of shot on the other side of the pitch with at least 7 forwards on their feet between them

3rd miss. 23:14 on the clock. Just outside his 22. Got completely flat footed and turned in by some decent Italian runners. Caught in no mans land and man went through the gap. Ball was off a scrum so he was stood in the 10 channel.

4th miss. 26:55 on the clock. Just outside his 22. Bit in on who was Van der Fliers man. Tackle was completed but offload allowed to player who should have been Joeys. Joey was second man in the line outside the ruck with 3 outside him

Of those 4. You could argue that one was a system failure. Off the scrum, VDF should have been off the scrum a bit faster. The other 3 were just flat out poor misses

Of the 8 tackles he made. 2 were first phase off a lineout standing in the 10 channel. None of the tackles were made in the outside channels or as a clean up behind the defensive line. Usually he was second man out from the ruck

Yes but all those tackles were not off phase play where there was a structured line of defence. It was open play when things had loosened up structurally. I don't have access to see it but from what you indicate joey was chasing down the ball in open play and getting caught out. I'm happy to admit error in my analysis here but think joey gives more around the park in open play than Byrne who tends to sit back and not chase down the ball.

arsebiscuits1

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Since you're so uppity, I have the game recorded FWIW I am not providing clips or screenshots. Please take what I say at face value.

I have Joey down for 8 tackles made. 4 missed.

1st miss. Comes at 6:34 on the clock. McGrath sends a box kick much too deep. Their 8 runs away from Beirne and Porter. Joey plants his feet much too early and slips off him. Ringrose and Byrne clean up. Here Joey was in the middle of the pitch on halfway with 2 men outside him in the front line. Where you'd expect a 10 to be on chase.

2nd miss. 7:30 on the clock. This was the big bump. He is stood much too high and Campanaro forces a huge handoff. He has 1 man outside him and his defending on his own 10m line in a pretty wide channel. He is stood outside a pod of forwards defending the Italian pod opposide. Again. Not an unusual place for a 10 to be defending. His centres are out of shot on the other side of the pitch with at least 7 forwards on their feet between them

3rd miss. 23:14 on the clock. Just outside his 22. Got completely flat footed and turned in by some decent Italian runners. Caught in no mans land and man went through the gap. Ball was off a scrum so he was stood in the 10 channel.

4th miss. 26:55 on the clock. Just outside his 22. Bit in on who was Van der Fliers man. Tackle was completed but offload allowed to player who should have been Joeys. Joey was second man in the line outside the ruck with 3 outside him

Of those 4. You could argue that one was a system failure. Off the scrum, VDF should have been off the scrum a bit faster. The other 3 were just flat out poor misses

Of the 8 tackles he made. 2 were first phase off a lineout standing in the 10 channel. None of the tackles were made in the outside channels or as a clean up behind the defensive line. Usually he was second man out from the ruck

I will never know why you bothered to do this given the source of the disagreement.

arsebiscuits1

Deleted User wrote: »

I will never know why you bothered to do this given the source of the disagreement.

I absolutely love analysing games.

Sad? Probably to some. But time you enjoy wasting etc etc etc.

I like watching games back and breaking down what happened and why. Bit of a hobby of mine.

I payed special attention to half backs at the weekend because it was a unique chance to see what they can do given it's normally Sexton and Murray playing so I had reference to what happened and when ha

arsebiscuits1

Heymans wrote: »

Yes but all those tackles were not off phase play where there was a structured line of defence. It was open play when things had loosened up structurally. I don't have access to see it but from what you indicate joey was chasing down the ball in open play and getting caught out. I'm happy to admit error in my analysis here but think joey gives more around the park in open play than Byrne who tends to sit back and not chase down the ball.

1) It's international rugby and a team led my Schmidt and Farrell. There is no such thing as "unstructured defence"

2) Italy did not break us down. They had 12 offloads. Most of which were after the contact was lost and were merely equivalent to quick ball from the ruck. Others just forced mistakes.

3) Joeys 1st miss from a chase wasn't really open play. The whole line moved up. It was first phase of turnover ball really

molloyjh

Joey doesn't play for Leinster, does he? Leinster didn't play Italy last week, did they?

AdamD

Deleted User wrote: »

I will never know why you bothered to do this given the source of the disagreement.

Squidgy Black

molloyjh wrote: »

Joey doesn't play for Leinster, does he? Leinster didn't play Italy last week, did they?

It's the international window. All sanity and logic goes out the window.

Thermoman12

molloyjh wrote: »

Joey doesn't play for Leinster, does he? Leinster didn't play Italy last week, did they?

No, joey plays for Munster and Ireland played Italy last week not Leinster

Dave_The_Sheep

You sure?

wise7

I'm hoping they are still asleep in La La Land as I don't want to encourage a re-run of that painful dialogue on the comparative defensive capabilities of Carberry V Byrne. However what I do wonder is why Byrne (brought in as the 3rd outhalf for the AI's) is not on the bench today against Argentina. Joey didn't have a good game against Italy and not just the missed tackles. If Byrne was considered good enough to be put on the bench for the 3rd test in Australia why not today too? This is the time that depth needs to be built especially in the pivot half-back positions.

Interested Observer

wise7 wrote: »

I'm hoping they are still asleep in La La Land as I don't want to encourage a re-run of that painful dialogue on the comparative defensive capabilities of Carberry V Byrne. However what I do wonder is why Byrne (brought in as the 3rd outhalf for the AI's) is not on the bench today against Argentina. Joey didn't have a good game against Italy and not just the missed tackles. If Byrne was considered good enough to be put on the bench for the 3rd test in Australia why not today too? This is the time that depth needs to be built especially in the pivot half-back positions.

Schmidt obviously rates Carbery well above Byrne. Byrne might get a go against USA but that's it.

wise7

Interested Observer wrote: »

Schmidt obviously rates Carbery well above Byrne. Byrne might get a go against USA but that's it.

Maybe so but Cullen and Lancaster clearly prefer Byrne as a 10 as they have demonstrated time and again. So my point is should Byrne not be given more air time to become a critical part of that necessary dependable depth below Sexton that is going to be needed going into the RWC?

Interested Observer

wise7 wrote: »

Maybe so but Cullen and Lancaster clearly prefer Byrne as a 10 as they have demonstrated time and again. So my point is should Byrne not be given more air time to become a critical part of that necessary dependable depth below Sexton that is going to be needed going into the RWC?

Doesn't really matter what Leinster prefer to be honest. There's a limited amount of game time available and Schmidt appears to be happy enough with Sexton +1.

wise7

Interested Observer wrote: »

Doesn't really matter what Leinster prefer to be honest. There's a limited amount of game time available and Schmidt appears to be happy enough with Sexton +1.

Well I think that sets us up potentially for a re-run of RWC 2015. I don't think Carberry is a solid enough option as the sole 'break glass in emergency' call.

accensi0n

Carbery is first choice for Munster and byrne will have a bunch of caps as an out and out 10 for leinster by the WC, think it's a much better situation than 2015.
Even if carbery wasn't the better 10 between the 2, he'll have an entire season as a starting 10 which is better than before.
Be grand, WC's in the bag.

wise7

accensi0n wrote: »

Carbery is first choice for Munster and byrne will have a bunch of caps as an out and out 10 for leinster by the WC, think it's a much better situation than 2015.

Yeah but the inconsistency of Schmidt on the one hand warning players ahead of this game that they could be sitting in the stand next week if they don't shape up while at the same time he rewards Carberry's very poor display with inclusion against Argentina and ignores Byrne's encouraging showing in Chicago, brief as it was.

sydthebeat

wise7 wrote: »

Yeah but the inconsistency of Schmidt on the one hand warning players ahead of this game that they could be sitting in the stand next week if they don't shape up while at the same time he rewards Carberry's very poor display with inclusion against Argentina and ignores Byrne's encouraging showing in Chicago, brief as it was.

Joey wasn't "very poor" against Italy... That's a narrative you're trying to create here.

When Byrne came on he was no better nor worse that joey had been.

Faugheen

sydthebeat wrote: »

Joey wasn't "very poor" against Italy... That's a narrative you're trying to create here.

When Byrne came on he was no better nor worse that joey had been.

First line is correct.

Second line is debatable. Byrne looked much more comfortable than Joey did, but it could also be argued that the game was over at that stage and he wasnt really tested.

Joey had good moments but he was also quite erratic in how he controlled the game.

wise7

sydthebeat wrote: »

Joey wasn't "very poor" against Italy... That's a narrative you're trying to create here.

When Byrne came on he was no better nor worse that joey had been.

Not a creation, just based on facts. Missed tackles, out on the full, pass intercepted and tactical kicks into the hands of the back 3. Its on the video.

sydthebeat

wise7 wrote: »

Not a creation, just based on facts. Missed tackles, out on the full, pass intercepted and tactical kicks into the hands of the back 3. Its on the video.

And yet the score was 35 - 7 when Byrne came on so joey must have been doing something right, it's on the video

molloyjh

Is this really still happening on the Leinster thread?

wise7

molloyjh wrote: »

Is this really still happening on the Leinster thread?

Fair point!. You're right. No more from me.

stephen_n

wise7 wrote: »

Maybe so but Cullen and Lancaster clearly prefer Byrne as a 10 as they have demonstrated time and again. So my point is should Byrne not be given more air time to become a critical part of that necessary dependable depth below Sexton that is going to be needed going into the RWC?

As a starter Cullen and Lancaster preferred Byrne, as a bench option Joey always got the nod due to his versatility.

Won't be seeing Seanie until February at the earliest.

Thermoman12

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Won't be seeing Seanie until February at the earliest.

He didn’t deserve to be playing today anyway, most complacent player ever, Leavy deserved to be starting today

Clegg

Complacent?

The best trolls always have a kernel if truth to them. This does not.

Thermoman12

Clegg wrote: »

Complacent?

The best trolls always have a kernel if truth to them. This does not.

How is he not complacent? He’s came back from injury and hasn’t proved anything yet, you’re the troll if anything haha

Thermoman12

Thermoman12 wrote: »

He didn’t deserve to be playing today anyway, most complacent player ever, Leavy deserved to be starting today

That's so ridiculous it's actually mean spirited.

Commanchie

Thermoman12 wrote: »

How is he not complacent? He’s came back from injury and hasn’t proved anything yet, you’re the troll if anything haha

He is back from injury. He has proven hisnworrh of course he deserves a jersey.