Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Burkie1203

Faugheen wrote: »

This talk of Leinster losing a 7.

If it is a possibility. I'd be sending the IRFU a strongly worded email about what one or two injuries does to our back-row options, like this week.

I don't like the idea that Leinster should just share their players around. They've set the standard, it's up to the others to reach it, not up to Leinster to provide players to help create a level playing field.

If a player wants to leave then they shouldn't be stopped going. But these meetings with Carbery to convince him to go to Ulster/Munster were a load of absolute bollocks and sets an awful precedent.

Munster have plenty of 7s. They don't need another one. SOB will probably be gone after the World Cup so I don't see why Leinster should give up another one.

6. Ruddock, Murphy

7. Leavy* VDF SOB* Connors Penney

8. Conan*, Deegan*, Doris

* have worn 6

SOB is only one close to the end of his career barring injuries

Dubinusa

I agree with Ed Byrne passing Dooley at lh. I just worry that he's undersized for a prop and I have no idea how he'll go scrummaging against a good th.
I watched the Dragons match and Byrne went well. He's a fantastic tackler and is very good in the loose. But, that was Dragons!
Tovey, is not very good. RB kicking for territory was superb. He really has got some boot. I thought he was very good and is clearly a very good 10.
Treacy was great. His darts looked really good and he really puts himself about.
The line out was class. We used 5 jumpers and really mixed it up.
Fardy was easily the best forward on the field. Doris and Murphy went really well too.
Deegan was class when he came on. How many forwards can tap the ball with the outside boot into the corner?
All in all, a good day out. But, Keenan wasn't tested at all.
I really think he's going to be a good player and I would have liked to see him under some pressure.
The centers were good as where the wings.
Dragons are guileless and have no direction. Tovey doesn't really have too much to offer. They obviously need another wee overhaul, as there's not much depth.

Richie_Rich89

van Graan doesn't seem to like Oliver, which I find strange. He looks like Munster's best openside option to me.

Jack Daly's off with the 7s, which should accelerate his development. He'll be an option at openside for Munster in a year of two

Richie_Rich89

I thought Jimmy O'Brien did the nuts and bolts stuff very well

errlloyd

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I thought Jimmy O'Brien did the nuts and bolts stuff very well

I thought Conor O Brien was very good too, he had one absolutely monster hand off where he embarrassed whatever defender was in front of him.

One thing I would note, is I thought Patterson showed more potential than Hugh O Sullivan or Nick McCarthy ever have. HOS really struggled to make any distance on his box kicking for touch versus Ospreys. Patterson had two kicks, the first was out of hand, right when he came on, absolutely inch perfect, bounced on the line. The second was a good long box kick.

His assist for either JOB or Keenan to score was like one of the ones that JGP does so well. Double skip pass off the base of the ruck. JGP leads the Pro14 for assists, and part of it is because of that pass.

Richie_Rich89

errlloyd wrote: »

I thought Conor O Brien was very good too, he had one absolutely monster hand off where he embarrassed whatever defender was in front of him.

One thing I would note, is I thought Patterson showed more potential than Hugh O Sullivan or Nick McCarthy ever have. HOS really struggled to make any distance on his box kicking for touch versus Ospreys. Patterson had two kicks, the first was out of hand, right when he came on, absolutely inch perfect, bounced on the line. The second was a good long box kick.

His assist for either JOB or Keenan to score was like one of the ones that JGP does so well. Double skip pass off the base of the ruck. JGP leads the Pro14 for assists, and part of it is because of that pass.

Yeah I was thinking that watching the pass. Patterson's obviously been paying close attention to what JGP does

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

I thought Conor O Brien was very good too, he had one absolutely monster hand off where he embarrassed whatever defender was in front of him.

One thing I would note, is I thought Patterson showed more potential than Hugh O Sullivan or Nick McCarthy ever have. HOS really struggled to make any distance on his box kicking for touch versus Ospreys. Patterson had two kicks, the first was out of hand, right when he came on, absolutely inch perfect, bounced on the line. The second was a good long box kick.

His assist for either JOB or Keenan to score was like one of the ones that JGP does so well. Double skip pass off the base of the ruck. JGP leads the Pro14 for assists, and part of it is because of that pass.

I'd be hesitant to put Patterson over HOS just yet, off the back of 4 appearances from the bench, but I would agree that both have shown more than McCarthy.

Buer

Dubinusa wrote: »

RB kicking for territory was superb. He really has got some boot. I thought he was very good and is clearly a very good 10.
.

Byrne's line kicking is the most under appreciated and yet best aspect of his game, to me. His ability to stick the ball into the corner from almost anywhere in the opposition half is top class...dare I say it, it's the one aspect of his game where he's even better than Sexton (who is an excellent line kicker himself). It's notable that it was the one kicking aspect he took off Carbery when he came on against the USA.

There were two or three stand out kicks to touch on Saturday where he went from his own half to well inside the opposition 22 and also one from the middle of the field inside the opposition 22 which he stuck to about 5m. Not a massive distance but it was ballsy to look to go so close to the corner from about 35m away.

errlloyd

Buer wrote: »

Byrne's line kicking is the most under appreciated and yet best aspect of his game, to me.

He had one absolute Gem of a penalty punt too

Eod100

Clegg wrote: »

More injury worries for Leinster.

Jack McGrath had a minor procedure on his hip and will be unavailable for 4-6 weeks. Guess we'll see Dooley as replacement loosehead. The bigger problem is Nick McCarthy with a sprained foot. He'll be assessed later in the week but if he's out one of Lowe or Fardy makes way for JGP. Fardy and Lowe are both in excellent form so it's a tough decision. Both would be well suited for playing Bath. They look rather flimsy up front and pourous out wide.

The only 2 foreign players in squad rule is fairly awkward alright. Even if it was only 2 players playing on pitch at same time it would make a difference. Guess by time McCarthy goes to Munster, JGP will be IQ? And Lowe by then?

arsebiscuits1

Faugheen wrote: »

This talk of Leinster losing a 7.

If it is a possibility. I'd be sending the IRFU a strongly worded email about what one or two injuries does to our back-row options, like this week.

I don't like the idea that Leinster should just share their players around. They've set the standard, it's up to the others to reach it, not up to Leinster to provide players to help create a level playing field.

If a player wants to leave then they shouldn't be stopped going. But these meetings with Carbery to convince him to go to Ulster/Munster were a load of absolute bollocks and sets an awful precedent.

Munster have plenty of 7s. They don't need another one. SOB will probably be gone after the World Cup so I don't see why Leinster should give up another one.

Playing devils advocate here.

*Please note I am not saying I agree, I am noting this is the way it is*

Leinster have the benefit of having the biggest population. It is so much bigger than the other provinces and it certainly adds to the advantage we have in the clubs and the schools scene. The participation numbers in Leinster are so much higher than the other 3 that statistically, we will be producing the most players.

Taking schools rugby as an example. It is a big tradition all around Ireland. But it is so ingrained in Leinster Rugby culture and far more competitive and invested in than the other provinces. We have more than 6 massive schools where Rugby rules all. The amount of ready made athletes coming out of these schools is insane.

Now, say I am Mr. Nucifora or someone making the calls in the IRFU. My priority is the national team.

They have been very forthright that this country needs depth and the best players need game time.

There has been immense investment in the academies and underage rugby across all 4 provinces since Nucifora took over. And this will produce a lot of native athletes and it will benefit Irish Rugby hugely. The fruit of this is already been seen in your Ryans and Stockdales.

But it doesn't take away from the fact Leinster has the sheer numbers and culture for producing top end rugby players. This wont change. In fact it is likely Leinster will be making even more.

So while you can do everything to enable academies and provinces to create their own, it wont stop Leinster producing players. And their squad can only be so big.

So movement is going to become more frequent. And provincial identity will become more diluted.

And there isn't much we can do about it.

But I wont be losing sleep. Never look at your neighbour to see if they have more. Only look to see if they have enough :pac::pac:

molloyjh

At the end of the day the game here is funded by the national team. We should all want the absolute best for the Irish team because (a) it's our national team and (b) the better they do, the better each of our provinces do.

At the end of the day, players aren't trading cards that a province or Union can trade and move around at will. They will make their own decisions based on what is presented to them. Sure, the IRFU might look to make a case for players to move. But if the case isn't there, or isn't strong enough, then the players won't move. If the case is strong enough then any decision the players make is entirely understandable. They have to do what they feel is best for them, in what could be a very short career.

Faugheen

Burkie1203 wrote: »

6. Ruddock, Murphy

7. Leavy* VDF SOB* Connors Penney

8. Conan*, Deegan*, Doris

* have worn 6

SOB is only one close to the end of his career barring injuries

Striked players who are all injured and look what you’re left with.

Penny has had two good games so far, but let’s relax on him a bit. He’s nowhere near the level of Leavy or VDF and nor should he be at his age.

If we have a situation like the above, and assuming VDF left, when you’re left with Penny at 7 coming up to a Champions Cup game against Bath

Teams are lucky to have their full back-row compliment for big chunks of the season because of how gruelling a position it is to play.

arsebiscuits1

Faugheen wrote: »

Striked players who are all injured and look what you’re left with.

Penny has had two good games so far, but let’s relax on him a bit. He’s nowhere near the level of Leavy or VDF and nor should he be at his age.

If we have a situation like the above, and assuming VDF left, when you’re left with Penny at 7 coming up to a Champions Cup game against Bath

Teams are lucky to have their full back-row compliment for big chunks of the season because of how gruelling a position it is to play.

Strike any player in any position out of any team and it will have an effect.

With regards to lads potentially moving provinces, ultimately it is their decision.

Yes, back row is attritional. And yes it is likely that multiple players would be required over the course of a season.

But it is also possible that a player doesn't want to depend on the injury of another to result in game time and make a decision as a result

Squidgy Black

molloyjh wrote: »

At the end of the day the game here is funded by the national team. We should all want the absolute best for the Irish team because (a) it's our national team and (b) the better they do, the better each of our provinces do.

At the end of the day, players aren't trading cards that a province or Union can trade and move around at will. They will make their own decisions based on what is presented to them. Sure, the IRFU might look to make a case for players to move. But if the case isn't there, or isn't strong enough, then the players won't move. If the case is strong enough then any decision the players make is entirely understandable. They have to do what they feel is best for them, in what could be a very short career.

At the end of the day, it's the end of the day.

Stout Warrior

Just contemplating on that article today Re Lancaster thinking of moving to Bath. It’s struck me that he’s never really looked as though he’s felt at home in Ireland with his constantly flying home to see his wife and children. I know he’s a consummate professional but there is something that even bypasses professionalism and that your allegiance to your homeland. I wonder if he has regrets about his time in As England head coach and whether that pull or his allegiance to his homeland is in conflict with him coaching the Irish national team. Being someone who has lived and worked in England and being an Irishman that gulf is something that never leaves you. You never feel at home in England and I wonder will he ever feel he has sufficient allegiance to Ireland to coach the national team here. It would certainly be a good career move for him but there are some things that usurp that. Will he ever stop loving England enough to become Irish national coach I don’t know but here’s hoping.

Chiparus

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I would imagine in the case of a hard Brexit there'll be an emergency rule change implemented by the ERC to amend that. There's no way they'll take the UK teams out of the tournament.

Are Ulster a UK team?
Or even a non EU team?

jacothelad

Chiparus wrote: »

Are Ulster a UK team?
Or even a non EU team?

No. They are part of the IRFU which despite some beliefs and some of the trappings is not the National team of the Irish Republic but the team of the whole Island of Ireland.



No. The EU doesn't have teams. Even after Brexit part of Ulster will still be in the EU. I suppose when the sh!t hits the fan after the actual Brexit in 2020 there might be difficulties in travel etc . Interesting times indeed.

Dog Botherer

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Just contemplating on that article today Re Lancaster thinking of moving to Bath. It’s struck me that he’s never really looked as though he’s felt at home in Ireland with his constantly flying home to see his wife and children. I know he’s a consummate professional but there is something that even bypasses professionalism and that your allegiance to your homeland. I wonder if he has regrets about his time in As England head coach and whether that pull or his allegiance to his homeland is in conflict with him coaching the Irish national team. Being someone who has lived and worked in England and being an Irishman that gulf is something that never leaves you. You never feel at home in England and I wonder will he ever feel he has sufficient allegiance to Ireland to coach the national team here. It would certainly be a good career move for him but there are some things that usurp that. Will he ever stop loving England enough to become Irish national coach I don’t know but here’s hoping.

awec

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Playing devils advocate here.

*Please note I am not saying I agree, I am noting this is the way it is*

Leinster have the benefit of having the biggest population. It is so much bigger than the other provinces and it certainly adds to the advantage we have in the clubs and the schools scene. The participation numbers in Leinster are so much higher than the other 3 that statistically, we will be producing the most players.

Taking schools rugby as an example. It is a big tradition all around Ireland. But it is so ingrained in Leinster Rugby culture and far more competitive and invested in than the other provinces. We have more than 6 massive schools where Rugby rules all. The amount of ready made athletes coming out of these schools is insane.

Now, say I am Mr. Nucifora or someone making the calls in the IRFU. My priority is the national team.

They have been very forthright that this country needs depth and the best players need game time.

There has been immense investment in the academies and underage rugby across all 4 provinces since Nucifora took over. And this will produce a lot of native athletes and it will benefit Irish Rugby hugely. The fruit of this is already been seen in your Ryans and Stockdales.

But it doesn't take away from the fact Leinster has the sheer numbers and culture for producing top end rugby players. This wont change. In fact it is likely Leinster will be making even more.

So while you can do everything to enable academies and provinces to create their own, it wont stop Leinster producing players. And their squad can only be so big.

So movement is going to become more frequent. And provincial identity will become more diluted.

And there isn't much we can do about it.

But I wont be losing sleep. Never look at your neighbour to see if they have more. Only look to see if they have enough :pac::pac:

Yea this is pretty much the nail on the head.

The other three will never match Leinster.

The notion that Leinster set the bar and the other teams just have to catch up is just a lazy cliche, and a handy way of advocating for no change and ensuring that Leinster remain the dominant team in Ireland for the forseeable.

So I guess it comes down to what the IRFU want. One exceptionally strong province with three ok teams that will probably not win all that much if anything, or four strong provinces even if it means dialing back the ridiculous levels of depth at the strongest.

And Leinster fans moaning about how hard it is when you've one or two injuries in the back row is some laugh. It'd be like Denis O'Brien complaining about the price of a pint of milk. A dose of perspective required I think.

Clegg

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Just contemplating on that article today Re Lancaster thinking of moving to Bath. It’s struck me that he’s never really looked as though he’s felt at home in Ireland with his constantly flying home to see his wife and children. I know he’s a consummate professional but there is something that even bypasses professionalism and that your allegiance to your homeland. I wonder if he has regrets about his time in As England head coach and whether that pull or his allegiance to his homeland is in conflict with him coaching the Irish national team. Being someone who has lived and worked in England and being an Irishman that gulf is something that never leaves you. You never feel at home in England and I wonder will he ever feel he has sufficient allegiance to Ireland to coach the national team here. It would certainly be a good career move for him but there are some things that usurp that. Will he ever stop loving England enough to become Irish national coach I don’t know but here’s hoping.

I think it's inevitable that he'll eventually go back to coach in England. But I don't think it will be out of a sense of allegiance. It'll be more out of a chance to prove himself to the people who doubted him. He was pilloried by the media post WC 2015 and his reputation was damaged so much that other English sides didn't want to touch him. Or at least that's the story I've read.

I'd go so far as to say he probably feels more allegiance to Leinster for taking a chance on him.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

.

And Leinster fans moaning about how hard it is when you've one or two injuries in the back row is some laugh. It'd be like Denis O'Brien complaining about the price of a pint of milk. A dose of perspective required I think.

Says the man who thought losing a scrum half would completely undermine his teams ability to function. :pac:

Shefwedfan

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Just contemplating on that article today Re Lancaster thinking of moving to Bath. It’s struck me that he’s never really looked as though he’s felt at home in Ireland with his constantly flying home to see his wife and children. I know he’s a consummate professional but there is something that even bypasses professionalism and that your allegiance to your homeland. I wonder if he has regrets about his time in As England head coach and whether that pull or his allegiance to his homeland is in conflict with him coaching the Irish national team. Being someone who has lived and worked in England and being an Irishman that gulf is something that never leaves you. You never feel at home in England and I wonder will he ever feel he has sufficient allegiance to Ireland to coach the national team here. It would certainly be a good career move for him but there are some things that usurp that. Will he ever stop loving England enough to become Irish national coach I don’t know but here’s hoping.

Lack of paragraph means nobody will read this


The only bit I seen was if he regretted been England management....no point reading after that....top job, every English rugby person aspires to and once in a lifetime oppurtunity....why would he regret?

Granny15

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lack of paragraph means nobody will read this


The only bit I seen was if he regretted been England management....no point reading after that....top job, every English rugby person aspires to and once in a lifetime oppurtunity....why would he regret?

Grammar nazi!

I think he might feel a bit out of place pulling one over on his own country if he were to coach Ireland and beat England. Can you imagine an Irishman coaching England and beating Ireland he would be vilified

He struck me to be very much a part of the national set up and your allegiance to your homeland never leaves you.

degsie

Granny15 wrote: »

Grammar nazi!

Capital 'N' my friend...

Faugheen

awec wrote: »

Yea this is pretty much the nail on the head.

The other three will never match Leinster.

The notion that Leinster set the bar and the other teams just have to catch up is just a lazy cliche, and a handy way of advocating for no change and ensuring that Leinster remain the dominant team in Ireland for the forseeable.

So I guess it comes down to what the IRFU want. One exceptionally strong province with three ok teams that will probably not win all that much if anything, or four strong provinces even if it means dialing back the ridiculous levels of depth at the strongest.

And Leinster fans moaning about how hard it is when you've one or two injuries in the back row is some laugh. It'd be like Denis O'Brien complaining about the price of a pint of milk. A dose of perspective required I think.

This wasn't an issue when Leinster weren't performing, though. Why is it one now?

It's Dublin GAA nonsense. They're too good so they should be split in two or whatever crazy idea you're having. People churn out the population one all the time as well. Again, it wasn't an issue when Leinster weren't winning anything, so why is it an issue now?

And it's 4 injuries into the back-row. 3 of them at 7. Imagine we lost VDF on top of that? I think I'm well within my rights to 'moan' about our injuries when there's talk of us giving away another back-row on top of that.

People from other provinces are pointing the finger away from their own failings and instead are trying to blame Leinster.

cameramonkey

Jack McGrath out for 4-6 weeks.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-to-be-without-jack-mcgrath-for-four-to-six-weeks-1.3718411

awec

Faugheen wrote: »

This wasn't an issue when Leinster weren't performing, though. Why is it one now?

It's Dublin GAA nonsense. They're too good so they should be split in two or whatever crazy idea you're having. People churn out the population one all the time as well. Again, it wasn't an issue when Leinster weren't winning anything, so why is it an issue now?

And it's 4 injuries into the back-row. 3 of them at 7. Imagine we lost VDF on top of that? I think I'm well within my rights to 'moan' about our injuries when there's talk of us giving away another back-row on top of that.

People from other provinces are pointing the finger away from their own failings and instead are trying to blame Leinster.

Why wasn't it an issue when Leinster weren't very good at taking advantage of their advantages?

Really?

Don't think anyone is deflecting any failings, but the idea that the other provinces just need to catch up is vacuous bollocks. Will never happen if Irish Rugby remains structured as it is. Give the other provinces the talent available to Leinster and I'd wager you'd get similar results, but they're never going to get similar results unless the IRFU invent some sort of teleportation device that will distribute Leinster's schools and clubs all around the country.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Why wasn't it an issue when Leinster weren't very good at taking advantage of their advantages?

Really?

So when Leinster weren't good it's because they weren't taking advantage of their player base, but we can't consider the same might be true elsewhere :pac:

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So when Leinster weren't good it's because they weren't taking advantage of their player base, but we can't consider the same might be true elsewhere :pac:

Ah now you're being deliberately obtuse.

If you're going to deny that there's a difference between Leinster's rugby population and the other three I am out. There's an interesting discussion to be had here but I've no interest wasting my time with soundbites and obfuscations.