Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Shefwedfan

Granny15 wrote: »

Grammar nazi!

I think he might feel a bit out of place pulling one over on his own country if he were to coach Ireland and beat England. Can you imagine an Irishman coaching England and beating Ireland he would be vilified

He struck me to be very much a part of the national set up and your allegiance to your homeland never leaves you.

Farrell doesn't seem to have any issue with it....


I didn't see any of the English/NZ etc coachs having an issue with it over the years......


At the end of the day it is a job.....

troyzer

awec wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So when Leinster weren't good it's because they weren't taking advantage of their player base, but we can't consider the same might be true elsewhere :pac:

Ah now you're being deliberately obtuse.

If you're going to deny that there's a difference between Leinster's rugby population and the other three I am out. There's an interesting discussion to be had here but I've no interest wasting my time with soundbites and obfuscations.

Of course there's a difference. His point is that clearly the population advantage can be negated by poor coaching and organisation as it was in the past.

It stands to reason that it can also be negated in a positive way in favour of a smaller province.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Ah now you're being deliberately obtuse.

If you're going to deny that there's a difference between Leinster's rugby population and the other three I am out. There's an interesting discussion to be had here but I've no interest wasting my time with soundbites and obfuscations.

No one denies it.

It's not as simple as 'Leinster are good because they have a rugby playing population that magically appeared for them while all the other poor provinces have no people whatsover playing rugby' - but you'd swear it is to read that sort of comment.

Leinster have a traditional playing population as well as a certain amount of numbers that they've added over the years (most of it thanks to capitalising on the success of Ireland -> Munster -> Leinster). That's a big part of their success. But that would all be useless if they didn't have one of the most professional and efficient academies in Northern Hemisphere rugby. And that was not gifted to Leinster rugby, that was developed from Cheika's era onwards and it works.

The evidence of that is in the dramatic increase in quality of academy products coming through now versus 15 years ago, there is no hugely dramatic increase in playing numbers to account for that. Leinster could be competitive with a squad entirely made up of Irish players, that wasn't remotely true before the current era.

Leinster are worth their success and there is a template there for other provinces to follow. No point pretending otherwise, it'd be fairly pathetic actually if the professional coaching staff at the other provinces thought that way (I know they don't).

Tox56

awec wrote: »

Ah now you're being deliberately obtuse.

If you're going to deny that there's a difference between Leinster's rugby population and the other three I am out. There's an interesting discussion to be had here but I've no interest wasting my time with soundbites and obfuscations.

Do you think Ulster and Munster are getting the most out of what they do have?

Neither have the resources or ability to produce the ridiculous conveyer belt Leinster have, but neither do 99% of teams in Europe, and it's a separate point to the question I posed above.

awec

Yea, if another province gets really lucky and works really hard they might end up with a decent 23 players (like Munster in the 00s for example), but in all likelihood are going to still be reliant on foreign imports and exceptional good fortune because teams like this are incredibly rare.

But this is still not coming close to catching Leinster.

Other provinces can improve, but Leinster need to get used to losing players because it's the only way this IRFU system will survive.

awec

Tox56 wrote: »

Do you think Ulster and Munster are getting the most out of what they do have?

Neither have the resources or ability to produce the ridiculous conveyer belt Leinster have, but neither do 99% of teams in Europe, and it's a separate point to the question I posed above.

Nope.

But your second point is my point. Even if Ulster and Munster drained every drop from their talent pool they would be no match for Leinster. So when people say "other provinces just need to catch up" it gets on my wick. It's just not going to happen.

And as I said in my previous post, I think Leinster losing players is going to be the way it goes if the IRFU system of running pro rugby is to survive.

Welcome back, by the way!

P_1

awec wrote: »

Yea, if another province gets really lucky and works really hard they might end up with a decent 23 players (like Munster in the 00s for example), but in all likelihood are going to still be reliant on foreign imports and exceptional good fortune because teams like this are incredibly rare.

But this is still not coming close to catching Leinster.

Other provinces can improve, but Leinster need to get used to losing players because it's the only way this IRFU system will survive.

Are Munster and Ulster not doing the same as Leinster are doing with their academies and UCD with say UL and Queens?

If they are what's the missing link?

Tox56

awec wrote: »

Nope.

But your second point is my point. Even if Ulster and Munster drained every drop from their talent pool they would be no match for Leinster. So when people say "other provinces just need to catch up" it gets on my wick. It's just not going to happen.

And as I said in my previous post, I think Leinster losing players is going to be the way it goes if the IRFU system of running pro rugby is to survive.

Welcome back, by the way!

I mean what does being a match for Leinster mean though? Having the same ridiculous depth of squad, no. Having a first 15/23 that can challenge and beat them? Absolutely.

The 2008 Munster team would absolutely be capable of beating Leinster (scaled to 2018 in terms of talent, obviously conditioning and everything else has moved on even since then), and it would still be one of the best teams in Europe, so the potential is clearly there.

Munster haven't won anything in seven years, Ulster even longer, and that's not good enough, regardless of Leinster's riches

Also thanks mate haha, I'm still lurking every now and then

awec

P_1 wrote: »

Are Munster and Ulster not doing the same as Leinster are doing with their academies and UCD with say UL and Queens?

If they are what's the missing link?

UCD and Trinity are Division 1A in AIL.

QUB and UL are 2A.

Ulster and Munster academies can only work with the raw ingredients available to them. Can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and all that. Munster are producing more than Ulster but Munster would not be competitive today without their imports either.

Stout Warrior

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lack of paragraph means nobody will read this


The only bit I seen was if he regretted been England management....no point reading after that....top job, every English rugby person aspires to and once in a lifetime oppurtunity....why would he regret?

I think he might regret that certain things didn't go his way in that World Cup. Bounce of a ball and wales wouldn't have beaten them.

I think it was only today burgess tweeted that there were too many egos in the team that didn't stand up and take responsibility.

Yes it was once in a lifetime opportunity but your allegiance with your homeland never leaves you and I think that's where Stu is right now with it.

Might he get a second chance we're things to go well with him for Ireland - like winning the 6 nations after winning a European Cup with Leinster? I wouldn't rule it out. There might be a sense of unfinished business from all sides

awec

Tox56 wrote: »

I mean what does being a match for Leinster mean though? Having the same ridiculous depth of squad, no. Having a first 15/23 that can challenge and beat them? Absolutely.

The 2008 Munster team would absolutely be capable of beating Leinster (scaled to 2018 in terms of talent, obviously conditioning and everything else has moved on even since then), and it would still be one of the best teams in Europe, so the potential is clearly there.

Munster haven't won anything in seven years, Ulster even longer, and that's not good enough, regardless of Leinster's riches

Also thanks mate haha, I'm still lurking every now and then

I would argue that both teams have a first 23 that could at least give Leinster a game at the moment (probably provided Leinster didn't play their absolute best team).

The problem is once either side gets an injury or two things go off a cliff. That's what ultimately holds them back, because you can't play your best team every game and injuries are inevitable. If Munster win a European Cup in the next ~5 years I will be astounded, if Ulster do it this decade I'd probably keel over. Neither team is close IMO.

Like one of the big reasons Leinster win trophies is not just because they have really good players, it's because they have lots of them.

P_1

awec wrote: »

UCD and Trinity are Division 1A in AIL.

QUB and UL are 2A.

Ulster and Munster academies can only work with the raw ingredients available to them. Can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and all that. Munster are producing more than Ulster but Munster would not be competitive today without their imports either.

A fair point. That's something of a shame really

Eod100

P_1 wrote: »

Are Munster and Ulster not doing the same as Leinster are doing with their academies and UCD with say UL and Queens?

If they are what's the missing link?

Playing population in Leinster for one. More private schools in Leinster too with top class facilities and coaching.

AbusesToilets

awec wrote: »

Yea this is pretty much the nail on the head.

The other three will never match Leinster.

The notion that Leinster set the bar and the other teams just have to catch up is just a lazy cliche, and a handy way of advocating for no change and ensuring that Leinster remain the dominant team in Ireland for the forseeable.

So I guess it comes down to what the IRFU want. One exceptionally strong province with three ok teams that will probably not win all that much if anything, or four strong provinces even if it means dialing back the ridiculous levels of depth at the strongest.

And Leinster fans moaning about how hard it is when you've one or two injuries in the back row is some laugh. It'd be like Denis O'Brien complaining about the price of a pint of milk. A dose of perspective required I think.

I suppose the other side of that is, do the IRFU want an Irish province that is capable of winning the major comps, or 3/4 relatively strong teams that can't?

Eod100

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I suppose the other side of that is, do the IRFU want an Irish province that is capable of winning the major comps, or 3/4 relatively strong teams that can't?

But there was always movement and always will be. Which Leinster has obviously benefited from in the past too. I think now's it's just better managed.

Richie_Rich89

I think Leinster just have a good thing going at the moment with good people with largely the right mindset in important positions. It wasn't so long ago that Matt O'Connor was bemoaning the fact that he couldn't bring in five or six big players from outside to bolster the squad.

If Leinster have such a competitive advantage in terms of underage talent, then why aren't we seeing the majority of Munster and Ulster's academy intake being Leinster schools players who didn't make the cut at Leinster? Only a handful get into the Leinstr academy every season

errlloyd

Tbh as a Leinster fan the status quo is okay when you consider the alternative.

Atm the status quo is we have our own academy, we produce amazing players, we keep the very best of them but some of them move on. The alternative might be for Ireland to set up a central academy, and distribute players as needs (the NZ model I think). Even if we were mandated to give 3 academy players away each year, we'd still get first choice and that is what is most important.

Now I agree provincial identity is undermined, and it's possibly a little sad that the derbies have become so soft. Gone are the days when Cheika stopped talking to Felix Jones because he was going to Munster, but I think that is also good for Ireland cohesion.

Richie_Rich89

Munster and Ulster have the pick of all their best underage talent, plus all the Leinster underage talent that doesn't make the Leinster academy. Surely that's enough to work with?

Dubinusa

Connacht have few Connacht men in their squad. I guess that's due to being the smallest populated province. So they absolutely should get dibs on young talent that Leinster won't take. Otherwise, Connacht will be a mix of foreigners and a few natives.
Munsters population is decent. There's got to be a million people in Munster? They really don't need much from Leinster and there's only one Leinster lad in their academy.
Ulster are getting it together and the academy is churning out some good players. And some are Leinster lads who didn't get the call for Leinster, Timoney; Jones, A.O.C. That's fair imo, those lads worked hard to get their contracts and were unable to do so in their home province.
I don't like the union putting the wheels in motion for a potentially great player to move elsewhere. Even if he is behind another player. A loan system on a yearly basis would be better imo.

prawnsambo

cameramonkey wrote: »

Jack McGrath out for 4-6 weeks.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-to-be-without-jack-mcgrath-for-four-to-six-weeks-1.3718411

But Leavy and Conan are back training and eligible for selection this weekend.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

But Leavy and Conan are back training and eligible for selection this weekend.

Conan back already?

That's great news - honestly thought he was gone for a few months.

Chiparus

jacothelad wrote: »

No. They are part of the IRFU which despite some beliefs and some of the trappings is not the National team of the Irish Republic but the team of the whole Island of Ireland.



No. The EU doesn't have teams. Even after Brexit part of Ulster will still be in the EU. I suppose when the sh!t hits the fan after the actual Brexit in 2020 there might be difficulties in travel etc . Interesting times indeed.

The issue will be the non-eu members ( ie British ) members of the Ulster team, may be ineligible to play for Ulster in Europe?

The Lost Sheep

Could this discussion be moved to another thread? Worth its own as topic very relevant and not just here....

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Playing devils advocate here.

*Please note I am not saying I agree, I am noting this is the way it is*

Leinster have the benefit of having the biggest population. It is so much bigger than the other provinces and it certainly adds to the advantage we have in the clubs and the schools scene. The participation numbers in Leinster are so much higher than the other 3 that statistically, we will be producing the most players.

Taking schools rugby as an example. It is a big tradition all around Ireland. But it is so ingrained in Leinster Rugby culture and far more competitive and invested in than the other provinces. We have more than 6 massive schools where Rugby rules all. The amount of ready made athletes coming out of these schools is insane.

Now, say I am Mr. Nucifora or someone making the calls in the IRFU. My priority is the national team.

They have been very forthright that this country needs depth and the best players need game time.

There has been immense investment in the academies and underage rugby across all 4 provinces since Nucifora took over. And this will produce a lot of native athletes and it will benefit Irish Rugby hugely. The fruit of this is already been seen in your Ryans and Stockdales.

But it doesn't take away from the fact Leinster has the sheer numbers and culture for producing top end rugby players. This wont change. In fact it is likely Leinster will be making even more.

So while you can do everything to enable academies and provinces to create their own, it wont stop Leinster producing players. And their squad can only be so big.

So movement is going to become more frequent. And provincial identity will become more diluted.

And there isn't much we can do about it.

But I wont be losing sleep. Never look at your neighbour to see if they have more. Only look to see if they have enough :pac::pac:

Its not simply that there is schools that rugby rules but that theyve the backing to put serious
money into sport(rugby) that doesnt/cant happen in other provinces to anywhere near same effect.
Movement might happen more but that doesnt necessarily dilute the provinces.

awec wrote: »

Yea this is pretty much the nail on the head.

The other three will never match Leinster.

The notion that Leinster set the bar and the other teams just have to catch up is just a lazy cliche, and a handy way of advocating for no change and ensuring that Leinster remain the dominant team in Ireland for the forseeable.

So I guess it comes down to what the IRFU want. One exceptionally strong province with three ok teams that will probably not win all that much if anything, or four strong provinces even if it means dialing back the ridiculous levels of depth at the strongest.

And Leinster fans moaning about how hard it is when you've one or two injuries in the back row is some laugh. It'd be like Denis O'Brien complaining about the price of a pint of milk. A dose of perspective required I think.

+1

Faugheen wrote: »

This wasn't an issue when Leinster weren't performing, though. Why is it one now?

It's Dublin GAA nonsense. They're too good so they should be split in two or whatever crazy idea you're having. People churn out the population one all the time as well. Again, it wasn't an issue when Leinster weren't winning anything, so why is it an issue now?

And it's 4 injuries into the back-row. 3 of them at 7. Imagine we lost VDF on top of that? I think I'm well within my rights to 'moan' about our injuries when there's talk of us giving away another back-row on top of that.

People from other provinces are pointing the finger away from their own failings and instead are trying to blame Leinster.

This isnt people from the rest of country just blaming Leinster. Population was a factor then and it is now.

P_1 wrote: »

Are Munster and Ulster not doing the same as Leinster are doing with their academies and UCD with say UL and Queens?

If they are what's the missing link?

Its the work before the academies and coaching/investment before we get the full time academy contracts

awec wrote: »

UCD and Trinity are Division 1A in AIL.

QUB and UL are 2A.

Ulster and Munster academies can only work with the raw ingredients available to them. Can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and all that. Munster are producing more than Ulster but Munster would not be competitive today without their imports either.

Bohs dont and never really did attract academy players even when in division 1 like Trinity/UCD did/do. Players in Limerick went to Shannon/Garryowen/Cookies more anyway.

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I think Leinster just have a good thing going at the moment with good people with largely the right mindset in important positions. It wasn't so long ago that Matt O'Connor was bemoaning the fact that he couldn't bring in five or six big players from outside to bolster the squad.

If Leinster have such a competitive advantage in terms of underage talent, then why aren't we seeing the majority of Munster and Ulster's academy intake being Leinster schools players who didn't make the cut at Leinster? Only a handful get into the Leinstr academy every season

Leinster do have large competitive advantage but there is only a small number added to academies each year but provinces will always look to their own and add the odd player from beyond their direct systems if needed.

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Munster and Ulster have the pick of all their best underage talent, plus all the Leinster underage talent that doesn't make the Leinster academy. Surely that's enough to work with?

They dont have all Leinster talent that dont make academy and dont look all that often beyond for players who attended leinster schools.

Dubinusa wrote: »

Connacht have few Connacht men in their squad. I guess that's due to being the smallest populated province. So they absolutely should get dibs on young talent that Leinster won't take. Otherwise, Connacht will be a mix of foreigners and a few natives.
Munsters population is decent. There's got to be a million people in Munster? They really don't need much from Leinster and there's only one Leinster lad in their academy.
Ulster are getting it together and the academy is churning out some good players. And some are Leinster lads who didn't get the call for Leinster, Timoney; Jones, A.O.C. That's fair imo, those lads worked hard to get their contracts and were unable to do so in their home province.
I don't like the union putting the wheels in motion for a potentially great player to move elsewhere. Even if he is behind another player. A loan system on a yearly basis would be better imo.

There is only 27 clubs playing rugby in Connacht. Not all field at underage/age grade and few clubs field at every single age group;
There is a million plus in Munster but so many of most successful/strongest counties in GAA are in Munster.

kennedmc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could this discussion be moved to another thread? Worth its own as topic very relevant and not just here....
Its not simply that there is schools that rugby rules but that theyve the backing to

Yes I think this should be moved to another thread or a new thread for people to air their opinions on this topic.

Dubinusa

I just watched back the Ospreys match.
Fardy and Molony put in great shifts. I thought the front row was good also I think Treacy is playing a lot better this year.
Penney was very good. He wasn't quite as good against Dragons imo. Murphy will be an excellent player imo. He is very good at the rucks and is sound defensively. Doris was also good.
I thought McCarthy was so so. His box kicks were bad, but he took his try well.
Frawley was great. Looks like a keeper.
Keenan was the best of the backs imo. Played very well and was busy all around.
I think Ospreys have some really good players and a lot of dross. They were beaten off the park as far as intensity goes and seemed to have no attacking nous.
Leinsters players wanted the ball and it showed with the ease they made yards.
All of the subs went well too.
Reid, besides a couple of blips, did well. He is a very good player with ball in hand and his kicking is good.
He gets a lot of flack, deservedly, but he is a very useful player. I think he'll start in Bath.
I've watched a lot of the matches and I think that guys like Molony and Treacy are really going well.
All of our forwards seem comfortable with the ball and they can all pass the ball very well.
Very impressive performance.

Burkie1203

Chiparus wrote: »

The issue will be the non-eu members ( ie British ) members of the Ulster team, may be ineligible to play for Ulster in Europe?

If they are born on the island of Ireland they are entitled to an Irish passport

If they have a grandparent born on the island of Ireland they can apply for citizenship (€278) and then get a passport (€90)

Like how many of the Ulster squad would this impact?

troyzer

prawnsambo wrote: »

But Leavy and Conan are back training and eligible for selection this weekend.

Deleted User wrote: »

Conan back already?

That's great news - honestly thought he was gone for a few months.

It doesn't say they're eligible for selection, it says they COULD be available for selection along with O'Loughlin and Larmour.

Apparently Barry Daly is back to training as well, that's great news for him and us. We'll need him in the Six Nations.

salmocab

Chiparus wrote: »

The issue will be the non-eu members ( ie British ) members of the Ulster team, may be ineligible to play for Ulster in Europe?

They won’t be ineligible as the eligibility rules are set by the competition not the EU.

troyzer

salmocab wrote: »

They won’t be ineligible as the eligibility rules are set by the competition not the EU.

The entire point of the rules was originally to exclude players not from that country but they couldn't because of EU rules.

The spirit of the law was to create an all English team in England, an all Irish team in Ireland, an all French team in France etc.

It'll get sorted out but I do think the English teams are going to have to stop relying on so many imports. The Premiership might jump on this as an opportunity to curb spending, treat non English players as actual foreigners. They're allowed to now because they're not in the EU.

salmocab

troyzer wrote: »

The entire point of the rules was originally to exclude players not from that country but they couldn't because of EU rules.

The spirit of the law was to create an all English team in England, an all Irish team in Ireland, an all French team in France etc.

It'll get sorted out but I do think the English teams are going to have to stop relying on so many imports. The Premiership might jump on this as an opportunity to curb spending, treat non English players as actual foreigners. They're allowed to now because they're not in the EU.

I was replying to a post about Ulster, they will not be affected in European competition by brexit from an eligibility point of view.