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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]
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Why wasn't it an issue when Leinster weren't very good at taking advantage of their advantages?
Really?
Don't think anyone is deflecting any failings, but the idea that the other provinces just need to catch up is vacuous bollocks. Will never happen if Irish Rugby remains structured as it is. Give the other provinces the talent available to Leinster and I'd wager you'd get similar results, but they're never going to get similar results unless the IRFU invent some sort of teleportation device that will distribute Leinster's schools and clubs all around the country.
Population of Ulster 2.6 million, population of Leinster 2.5 million. Leinsters talent doesn’t just materialize out of some numerical advantage. Leinster produce more players because of the systems and procedures they have put in place to develop them. The only real advantage Leinster have over other provinces is the investment certain schools put into rugby. Which has little or nothing to do with the IRFU or the Leinster branch.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »This is just not correct
Alright then, so why do the EPCR and domestic competitions restrict foreign players? Why not let anyone play like soccer?
Because although they want to limit them, EU law means they can only do that if they're outside the EU and an AA.
If suddenly they're not restricted by discrimination laws, there's no reason why they would voluntarily continue this bizarre situation where a Fijian isn't foreign but a Kiwi is.No it’s fully true, the competition is free to set its own rules, so long as it breaks no laws.
And the laws are the reason why it can't limit EU and Kolpak players. But given the choice, it's clear that they would treat Kolpak players at the very least as foreign.0 -
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And the laws are the reason why it can't limit EU and Kolpak players. But given the choice, it's clear that they would treat Kolpak players at the very least as foreign.
Of course they would, but the fact remains they can set their own rules and Ulster players will not have any problems with eligibility for Euro competition neither will British. I’m really not sure what your arguing for.0 -
Of course they would, but the fact remains they can set their own rules and Ulster players will not have any problems with eligibility for Euro competition neither will British. I’m really not sure what your arguing for.
I'm just saying that while the EPCR will sort this out, the RFU might not.
The RFU will quite possibly decide that from next season or maybe 2020 onwards, they will only accept two non English players in their squads as part of an attempt to curb salaries and promote youth set ups.
In Europe they'd still be allowed to treat EU and Kolpak players as not foreign but it seems unlikely that the English teams would stack their squads with players that are only really eligible for European games.
It'll have little or no effect on Ulster.0 -
I just watched back the Ospreys match.
Fardy and Molony put in great shifts. I thought the front row was good also I think Treacy is playing a lot better this year.
Penney was very good. He wasn't quite as good against Dragons imo. Murphy will be an excellent player imo. He is very good at the rucks and is sound defensively. Doris was also good.
I thought McCarthy was so so. His box kicks were bad, but he took his try well.
Frawley was great. Looks like a keeper.
Keenan was the best of the backs imo. Played very well and was busy all around.
I think Ospreys have some really good players and a lot of dross. They were beaten off the park as far as intensity goes and seemed to have no attacking nous.
Leinsters players wanted the ball and it showed with the ease they made yards.
All of the subs went well too.
Reid, besides a couple of blips, did well. He is a very good player with ball in hand and his kicking is good.
He gets a lot of flack, deservedly, but he is a very useful player. I think he'll start in Bath.
I've watched a lot of the matches and I think that guys like Molony and Treacy are really going well.
All of our forwards seem comfortable with the ball and they can all pass the ball very well.
Very impressive performance.
The problem with having Reid starting against Bath is the defensive liability he can be particularly in a big European game where the hits are that bit harder.......and he'll be up against Jamie Roberts. Looking forward to it but we are threadbare in the centre and it could be an area we concede a few points. Would have preferred Tomane in there TBH for a European game.0 -
Alright then, so why do the EPCR and domestic competitions restrict foreign players? Why not let anyone play like soccer?
Because although they want to limit them, EU law means they can only do that if they're outside the EU and an AA.
If suddenly they're not restricted by discrimination laws, there's no reason why they would voluntarily continue this bizarre situation where a Fijian isn't foreign but a Kiwi is.
And the laws are the reason why it can't limit EU and Kolpak players. But given the choice, it's clear that they would treat Kolpak players at the very least as foreign.
Please show some, any evidence at all, that the limitations are in place so Irish teams will be “all Irish players” and English teams will be “all english players”. That’s a complete fabrication.
There is no problem here yet. We have no idea what the relationship will be. We have even less evidence that the RFU have any intention of starting a fight with PRL over this. It’s all a completely invented problem. There is absolutely no chance this will be a problem.
The only real problems would be around travel and working permissions in the immediate aftermath of a no-deal hard brexit. And rugby will be an entirely irrelevant afterthought in that scenario.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Please show some, any evidence at all, that the limitations are in place so Irish teams will be “all Irish players” and English teams will be “all english players”. That’s a complete fabrication.
There is no problem here yet. We have no idea what the relationship will be. We have even less evidence that the RFU have any intention of starting a fight with PRL over this. It’s all a completely invented problem. There is absolutely no chance this will be a problem.
The only real problems would be around travel and working permissions in the immediate aftermath of a no-deal hard brexit. And rugby will be an entirely irrelevant afterthought in that scenario.
The evidence is the fact that they have literally already adopted an only two foreigners rule?0 -
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The problem with having Reid starting against Bath is the defensive liability he can be particularly in a big European game where the hits are that bit harder.......and he'll be up against Jamie Roberts. Looking forward to it but we are threadbare in the centre and it could be an area we concede a few points. Would have preferred Tomane in there TBH for a European game.
I think we are going to field a fairly full strength team against Bath in both legs so I'm not overly worried. If I had to guess we start
1 Healy
2 Cronin
3 Furlong
4 Toner
5 Ryan
6 Ruddock
7 Van Der Flier
8 Conan
9 McGrath
10 Sexton
11 Lowe
12 O'Loughlin
13 Ringrose
14 Larmour
15 Kearney
Subs:
16. James Tracy
17. Andrew Porter
18. Ed Byrne
19. Ross Molony
2o. Caelan Doris
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Ross Byrne
23. Noel Reid0 -
The evidence is the fact that they have literally already adopted an only two foreigners rule?
They adopted a 2 non-kolpak rule.
Interesting mathematical trick there anyway if they’ve manage to use a rule limiting only 2 players from a small and diminishing list of countries to enforce a team of “All English Players”.
If EPCR have managed that then they should move brexit negotiations to Lausanne!0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »They adopted a 2 non-kolpak rule.
Interesting mathematical trick there anyway if they’ve manage to use a rule limiting only 2 players from a small and diminishing list of countries to enforce a team of “All English Players”.
If EPCR have managed that then they should move brexit negotiations to Lausanne!
No, they didn't. They adopted a 2 non foreigner rule which became a 2 non European rule because EU law didn't allow them to discriminate against EU citizens.
And then the Kolpak ruling meant that the rule was further expanded to become 2 non European/Kolpak players.
The point being that its genesis was a 2 foreigner rule. We know this because of how the Premiership website explains it:How many foreign or overseas players can play in the Premiership?
It is important to note that the legal definition of foreign players is different to one of non-English players. In addition, players can fall under the Bosman or Kolpak rule. The Bosman ruling reinforced the Treaty of Rome in a sporting context, allowing the free movement of EU national workers around other EU countries. This effectively means any EU national has the same rights as any ‘local’ worker and therefore cannot be defined as a foreigner.
In the Premiership, the rule on foreign players has been amended to come into line with the regulations in European competitions. A maximum of two foreign players can now be on the pitch at any one time, at all periods during the season.
The level of English Qualified Players (EQP) in the Premiership has been fairly consistent since the inception of the league, and now stands at approximately 70%. This means on average there are approximately 200 English players playing every weekend in the Premiership.
The bold part I highlighted clearly implies that it's only really EU law that means they can't label French or Irish players etc as foreigners. It makes a clear distinction between non-English and foreign players but only as a result of the legal rulings. These legal rulings will have no effect once they leave the EU.
This was made clear by the fact that the Premiership had to draft a rule stating that the status quo will remain until the end of the season. Because they know that under the current rules, in the abscence of the EU, non English players are limited to 2 per 23.
And we're back to the start again, the rules are basically set up to prevent more than 2 non English players in the team. Changing the rules to mean that Irish and French players etc. aren't foreigners is exactly that; a change.0 -
Population of Ulster 2.6 million, population of Leinster 2.5 million. Leinsters talent doesn’t just materialize out of some numerical advantage. Leinster produce more players because of the systems and procedures they have put in place to develop them. The only real advantage Leinster have over other provinces is the investment certain schools put into rugby. Which has little or nothing to do with the IRFU or the Leinster branch.
Large parts of the community up north do not engage at all with Ulster rugby due to historical, political and quasi-religious reasons.
Best being Ireland captain has certainly helped a lot but the demographics are not the same and not entirely comparable.
There are a bunch of schools in Leinster locked into a high level competition against each other and many of these schools are quite affluent and can afford to invest in the players, into sports science and will get the buy in from parents who will supplement these costs at home.
Ulster are in a similar situation but interest levels have waned as Ulster has taken hits on and off the field. This will rebound but it's been at a low ebb from what I've read here and elsewhere.
There is absolutely nothing special about Leinster apart from the ground work being put in and no part of that isn't transferable to Ulster or any other environment. There are demographics at play and Leinsters success over the last 10 years has had an impact on uptake in schools and clubs which Ulster hasn't quite similarly enjoyed.
None of this is new information and Ulster are not just aware but seem to be proactively pursuing a more sustainable progression plan both at the top level and at the various entry points for young players. This will take time but if it's sufficiently comprehensive in nature it will begin to bear fruit within the next 5 years.
In the meantime Leinster's talent pool is excessive and it's actually not ideal if they end up turning away a lot of young lads who are definitely good enough. There is almost certainly not going to be a draft, but I imagine within the next decade there will be a bunch of guys who make academies and then a pool that the provinces draw from nationwide to fill in some slots. In this regards, provincial identity might take a hit but not a significant one. I think it will do wonders for the national team however.
There used to be a good deal of animosity between interpro players when pooled together for Ireland camps. This is largely gone and it's absence is certainly part of the teams cohesion and performance levels.0 -
I think we are going to field a fairly full strength team against Bath in both legs so I'm not overly worried. If I had to guess we start
1 Healy
2 Cronin
3 Furlong
4 Toner
5 Ryan
6 Ruddock
7 Van Der Flier
8 Conan
9 McGrath
10 Sexton
11 Lowe
12 O'Loughlin
13 Ringrose
14 Larmour
15 Kearney
Subs:
16. James Tracy
17. Andrew Porter
18. Ed Byrne
19. Ross Molony
2o. Caelan Doris
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Ross Byrne
23. Noel Reid
Not sure about that selection. You're assuming we'll have all the borderline players back. Plus I don't think O'Loughlin will get selected at centre. I suppose Reid is the only player left after him unless you look at converting Larmour and put Ringrose at inside which probably won't happen.
You've forgotten Fardy altogether in your selection - he would definitely be in there ahead of Moloney. Second row will be a fascinating battle also and I think Bath are quite strong there.
Should be interesting with the added sideshow of Lancaster being linked with Bath - wonder how that will play out.0 -
No, they didn't. They adopted a 2 non foreigner rule which became a 2 non European rule because EU law didn't allow them to discriminate against EU citizens.
And then the Kolpak ruling meant that the rule was further expanded to become 2 non European/Kolpak players.
The point being that its genesis was a 2 foreigner rule. We know this because of how the Premiership website explains it:
The bold part I highlighted clearly implies that it's only really EU law that means they can't label French or Irish players etc as foreigners. It makes a clear distinction between non-English and foreign players but only as a result of the legal rulings. These legal rulings will have no effect once they leave the EU.
This was made clear by the fact that the Premiership had to draft a rule stating that the status quo will remain until the end of the season. Because they know that under the current rules, in the abscence of the EU, non English players are limited to 2 per 23.
And we're back to the start again, the rules are basically set up to prevent more than 2 non English players in the team. Changing the rules to mean that Irish and French players etc. aren't foreigners is exactly that; a change.
Really? When did they introduce a 2 non-“foreigner” rule exactly before subsequently becoming aware of EU law?0 -
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I'm just saying that while the EPCR will sort this out, the RFU might not.
The RFU will quite possibly decide that from next season or maybe 2020 onwards, they will only accept two non English players in their squads as part of an attempt to curb salaries and promote youth set ups.
In Europe they'd still be allowed to treat EU and Kolpak players as not foreign but it seems unlikely that the English teams would stack their squads with players that are only really eligible for European games.
It'll have little or no effect on Ulster.
The RFU has had plenty of opportunities to ring fence their interests and have repeatedly failed to do so. The club owners are entirely dismissive of the RFU and seem to hold all the card. They ignore salary caps, they fail to properly invest in developmental structures and use the clubs themselves as commercial vehicles and debt write of schemes.
The RFU is as weak as it's ever been and are having serious financial issues. They've allowed the clubs to completely wrest control of the game away from them and the clubs will decide how to navigate Brexit - not the RFU.
It's a sad state of affairs and ultimately quite unpredictable. I still don't think Brexit will end up impacting the game much, though I'd definitely be interested to know how Ulster might be exposed. If Brexit goes ahead without a deal all bets are off - it will be boderline anarchy.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Really? When did they introduce a 2 non-“foreigner” rule exactly before subsequently becoming aware of EU law?
I have no idea. But the rule clearly wasn't written with the EU in mind.
It still actually says two foreigners.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Large parts of the community up north do not engage at all with Ulster rugby due to historical, political and quasi-religious reasons.
Best being Ireland captain has certainly helped a lot but the demographics are not the same and not entirely comparable.
There are a bunch of schools in Leinster locked into a high level competition against each other and many of these schools are quite affluent and can afford to invest in the players, into sports science and will get the buy in from parents who will supplement these costs at home.
Ulster are in a similar situation but interest levels have waned as Ulster has taken hits on and off the field. This will rebound but it's been at a low ebb from what I've read here and elsewhere.
There is absolutely nothing special about Leinster apart from the ground work being put in and no part of that isn't transferable to Ulster or any other environment. There are demographics at play and Leinsters success over the last 10 years has had an impact on uptake in schools and clubs which Ulster hasn't quite similarly enjoyed.
None of this is new information and Ulster are not just aware but seem to be proactively pursuing a more sustainable progression plan both at the top level and at the various entry points for young players. This will take time but if it's sufficiently comprehensive in nature it will begin to bear fruit within the next 5 years.
In the meantime Leinster's talent pool is excessive and it's actually not ideal if they end up turning away a lot of young lads who are definitely good enough. There is almost certainly not going to be a draft, but I imagine within the next decade there will be a bunch of guys who make academies and then a pool that the provinces draw from nationwide to fill in some slots. In this regards, provincial identity might take a hit but not a significant one. I think it will do wonders for the national team however.
There used to be a good deal of animosity between interpro players when pooled together for Ireland camps. This is largely gone and it's absence is certainly part of the teams cohesion and performance levels.
Ulster has no fee paying schools. I believe Campbell College is the closest thing Ulster has to a few paying school and it’s not on the same level of any Dublin school.0 -
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I have no idea. But the rule clearly wasn't written with the EU in mind.
It still actually says two foreigners.
Oh right. So you just made that bit up.
Do you think, perhaps, it could be possible the number of players captured by that rule might have been influenced by the existence of EU laws, and the fact the lads in Dublin knew they existed?0 -
Ulster has no fee paying schools. I believe Campbell College is the closest thing Ulster has to a few paying school and it’s not on the same level of any Dublin school.
You will have to point out where I said Ulster had fee paying schools, I said affluent - and there are schools in Ulster which are in more affluent areas that primarily play rugby, no?
Not all the SCT schools in Leinster are fee paying, but most tend to be more affluent with the majority being fee paying.
Heymans to arrive into this discussion in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ...0 -
As Thomand would say, quotes people, quotes0
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I think people are harsh on Reid at times, I highly doubt O'Loughlin will be parachuted in ahead of him straight back from injury. Likewise as good as the two young centres looked against Dragons i'd be surprised to see them.0
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irishbucsfan wrote: »Oh right. So you just made that bit up.
Do you think, perhaps, it could be possible the number of players captured by that rule might have been influenced by the existence of EU laws, and the fact the lads in Dublin knew they existed?
I made what up?
If the rule was made with the EU in mind, it would have made reference to the restrictions that the EU imposes on it.
Both the EPCR and the Pro14 say non European player. The RFU says foreigner.
There's a fairly crucial distinction there. If the rule had been influenced by the existence of EU laws, then it would have been influenced by the existence of EU laws. It's a legal text, the words matter. It says foreigner, not non-European.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Large parts of the community up north do not engage at all with Ulster rugby due to historical, political and quasi-religious reasons.
Best being Ireland captain has certainly helped a lot but the demographics are not the same and not entirely comparable.
There are a bunch of schools in Leinster locked into a high level competition against each other and many of these schools are quite affluent and can afford to invest in the players, into sports science and will get the buy in from parents who will supplement these costs at home.
Ulster are in a similar situation but interest levels have waned as Ulster has taken hits on and off the field. This will rebound but it's been at a low ebb from what I've read here and elsewhere.
There is absolutely nothing special about Leinster apart from the ground work being put in and no part of that isn't transferable to Ulster or any other environment. There are demographics at play and Leinsters success over the last 10 years has had an impact on uptake in schools and clubs which Ulster hasn't quite similarly enjoyed.
None of this is new information and Ulster are not just aware but seem to be proactively pursuing a more sustainable progression plan both at the top level and at the various entry points for young players. This will take time but if it's sufficiently comprehensive in nature it will begin to bear fruit within the next 5 years.
In the meantime Leinster's talent pool is excessive and it's actually not ideal if they end up turning away a lot of young lads who are definitely good enough. There is almost certainly not going to be a draft, but I imagine within the next decade there will be a bunch of guys who make academies and then a pool that the provinces draw from nationwide to fill in some slots. In this regards, provincial identity might take a hit but not a significant one. I think it will do wonders for the national team however.
There used to be a good deal of animosity between interpro players when pooled together for Ireland camps. This is largely gone and it's absence is certainly part of the teams cohesion and performance levels.
The question is one of demographics and whether or not Leinster has a monopoly on the game in Ireland due to them. I would say that while the playing numbers are much higher in Leinster than in any other province the competitive advantage comes from intense competition and the honour that goes with winning. It is valued above most other things in Leinster it is almost like a Holy Covenant to win the Schools Cup and with that comes the excellence that feeds through into the Leinster setup.
As far as a forming a pool of players that haven't made their relative provincial setups - its not a bad idea to plug holes in squads in that way but I can't see it being set up with no rugby to play. The other option is to form a fifth province or Midlands team and feed the excess players in there where they will get game time and be put in the window for national selection - Leinster being their main feeder province.0 -
Nope.I made what up?
If the rule was made with the EU in mind, it would have made reference to the restrictions that the EU imposes on it.
Both the EPCR and the Pro14 say non European player. The RFU says foreigner.
There's a fairly crucial distinction there. If the rule had been influenced by the existence of EU laws, then it would have been influenced by the existence of EU laws. It's a legal text, the words matter. It says foreigner, not non-European.
You’re just guessing.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Nope.
You’re just guessing.
No I'm not.
Again, the rule says foreigner. Not European.
If it was made with the EU in mind, then why doesn't the rule reflect it?0 -
Not sure about that selection. You're assuming we'll have all the borderline players back. Plus I don't think O'Loughlin will get selected at centre. I suppose Reid is the only player left after him unless you look at converting Larmour and put Ringrose at inside which probably won't happen.
You've forgotten Fardy altogether in your selection - he would definitely be in there ahead of Moloney. Second row will be a fascinating battle also and I think Bath are quite strong there.
Should be interesting with the added sideshow of Lancaster being linked with Bath - wonder how that will play out.
I didn't forget Fardy, with Toner and Ryan said to be available for selection according to RTE Fardy gets a deserved rest after playing the last two weeks. Alot of the November series players are available for selection. O'Loughlin is said to be fully fit and is training and he seems the obvious choice beside Ringrose. I think Leinster have targeted the European Cup games to get their internationals back and I think they will be ready to go for the two games.0 -
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No I'm not.
Again, the rule says foreigner. Not European.
If it was made with the EU in mind, then why doesn't the rule reflect it?
Because it was written for a single nation. Just like the new South African clause for the Pro 14. With the context of EU law fully applied to drafting it.
It’s not relevant.
There is no evidence at all that law was written to make teams “All English” (indeed it specifically allows for the opposite). No evidence either that the RFU, PRL or EPCR will suddenly change their philosophy. And so this is all just a fabricated problem on a desperate search for symptoms.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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