Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because it was written for a single nation. Just like the new South African clause for the Pro 14. With the context of EU law fully applied to drafting it.

It’s not relevant.

There is no evidence at all that law was written to make teams “All English” (indeed it specifically allows for the opposite). No evidence either that the RFU, PRL or EPCR will suddenly change their philosophy. And so this is all just a fabricated problem on a desperate search for symptoms.

Like I've said already, I think it'll get sorted and have little real effect. But it will be a change.

As the laws stand right now, the RFU does not allow more than two foreigners in its squad. That is the rule. I have no idea how you can claim there's no evidence that the law wasn't written to make teams all English.

That is literally what the rule says. The only reason it doesn't have that effect is because of EU law which won't apply from March onwards.

We're arguing over semantics here. It'll get sorted. But sorting it out will require a change of the rules.

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

I have no idea how you can claim there's no evidence that the law wasn't written to make teams all English.

That is literally what the rule says.

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Squidgy Black

I might have missed it between all the bickering, but has anyone got team predictions for this weekend?

Rigor Mortis

Healy Cronin Furlong
Ryan Toner
Leavy Doris JvdF
McGrath
Sexton
Larmour
Reid
Ringrose
Lowe
RKearney

Byrne
Tracy
Porter
Moloney
Ruddock
Whiskey
Byrne
RoLoughlin

Clegg

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I might have missed it between all the bickering, but has anyone got team predictions for this weekend?

It's hard to predict because we've so many players taking fitness tests this week. The front five picks itself, but the backrow is hard to call. I'm guessing that Leavy and Conan won't make it. In that case I'd have Fardy, VdF and Ruddock at 6, 7 and 8. But the 42 has an article suggesting that Doris will start at 8 with Ruddock and VdF on the flanks.

salmocab

It’s non British not non English as to restrict other British citizens would surely be contravening employment law.
It’s not the RFU that make these rules it’s the league which is owned by the clubs.

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

Large parts of the community up north do not engage at all with Ulster rugby due to historical, political and quasi-religious reasons.

Best being Ireland captain has certainly helped a lot but the demographics are not the same and not entirely comparable.

There are a bunch of schools in Leinster locked into a high level competition against each other and many of these schools are quite affluent and can afford to invest in the players, into sports science and will get the buy in from parents who will supplement these costs at home.

Ulster are in a similar situation but interest levels have waned as Ulster has taken hits on and off the field. This will rebound but it's been at a low ebb from what I've read here and elsewhere.

There is absolutely nothing special about Leinster apart from the ground work being put in and no part of that isn't transferable to Ulster or any other environment. There are demographics at play and Leinsters success over the last 10 years has had an impact on uptake in schools and clubs which Ulster hasn't quite similarly enjoyed.

None of this is new information and Ulster are not just aware but seem to be proactively pursuing a more sustainable progression plan both at the top level and at the various entry points for young players. This will take time but if it's sufficiently comprehensive in nature it will begin to bear fruit within the next 5 years.

In the meantime Leinster's talent pool is excessive and it's actually not ideal if they end up turning away a lot of young lads who are definitely good enough. There is almost certainly not going to be a draft, but I imagine within the next decade there will be a bunch of guys who make academies and then a pool that the provinces draw from nationwide to fill in some slots. In this regards, provincial identity might take a hit but not a significant one. I think it will do wonders for the national team however.

There used to be a good deal of animosity between interpro players when pooled together for Ireland camps. This is largely gone and it's absence is certainly part of the teams cohesion and performance levels.

The Leinster branch had to and continues to struggle with a view in large parts of Leinster that rugby is a middle class game. There are a lot areas both in Dublin and Leinster that there is little or no rugby played.

In terms of turning away players, if they are indeed good enough, they find their way to another province. The Academies haven’t really missed out on any glaring talent so far have they? I’m not against players moving, but am firmly against them being forced to move.

What I don’t understand is why the IRFU isn’t encouraging more movement at academy level. Munsters academy is not producing anywhere near what it should be. Why aren’t they teaming up with UL and bringing Leinster players into their academy. Instead they wait till Leinster develop the players and then just go after the finished product. In doing so there is no encouragement to fix their own academy.

Squidgy Black

stephen_n wrote: »

The Leinster branch had to and continues to struggle with a view in large parts of Leinster that rugby is a middle class game. There are a lot areas both in Dublin and Leinster that there is little or no rugby played.

In terms of turning away players, if they are indeed good enough, they find their way to another province. The Academies haven’t really missed out on any glaring talent so far have they? I’m not against players moving, but am firmly against them being forced to move.

What I don’t understand is why the IRFU isn’t encouraging more movement at academy level. Munsters academy is not producing anywhere near what it should be. Why aren’t they teaming up with UL and bringing Leinster players into their academy. Instead they wait till Leinster develop the players and then just go after the finished product. In doing so there is no encouragement to fix their own academy.

Didn't Munster only recently cut the intake in their academy?

CatFromHue

stephen_n wrote: »

The Leinster branch had to and continues to struggle with a view in large parts of Leinster that rugby is a middle class game. There are a lot areas both in Dublin and Leinster that there is little or no rugby played.

It looks like at schools level there's been a huge growth in the game, massive.

Considering there used to just be the A and B Cup, with B being all the big schools.

Now it looks like there's 4 sections.

I just googled the development Cup, which is the very new schools, and could only find fixtures from 2013. Even still though just look at some of those places

St. Mary’s Drogheda v Dundalk Grammar, Dunshaughlin CC v Athboy CS, Boyne CS v DLS Dundalk, Balbriggan CC. v Ardee CS, Drogheda Grammar v Ratoath College, St Peter’s Dundalk v St Joseph’s Drogheda, Oaklands college v Moyne CS, Castleknock CC v St David’s Greystones, St. Brendan’s Bray v Tallaght CS, Salesians College V St Mac Dara’s, Piper’s Hill v Holy Family Rathcoole, Winners of Lucan CC / Patrician College v winners of St. Ciaran’s Kells v Malahide CS, Colaiste an Atha v Colaiste Bhride, CBS New Ross v Presentation Carlow, Tullow CS v Bridgetown CS, Scoil Chonglais v DLS Bagnelstown

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

The Leinster branch had to and continues to struggle with a view in large parts of Leinster that rugby is a middle class game. There are a lot areas both in Dublin and Leinster that there is little or no rugby played.

In terms of turning away players, if they are indeed good enough, they find their way to another province. The Academies haven’t really missed out on any glaring talent so far have they? I’m not against players moving, but am firmly against them being forced to move.

What I don’t understand is why the IRFU isn’t encouraging more movement at academy level. Munsters academy is not producing anywhere near what it should be. Why aren’t they teaming up with UL and bringing Leinster players into their academy. Instead they wait till Leinster develop the players and then just go after the finished product. In doing so there is no encouragement to fix their own academy.

Because movement at academy level isnt the answer. Munster have been changing their underage systems and improving club(youths)/schools level.
Yes for all work by IRFU around tallaght and other areas there is little to no rugby played.
I dont see too many issues with telling someone they either move or dont get contract.
Teaming up with UL and what? Munster signing kids from Leinster youths/schools doesnt fix their academy either. Munster have made changes to schools and youths competitions for the better and been looking for ways to improve coaching.

The Lost Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

It looks like at schools level there's been a huge growth in the game, massive.

Considering there used to just be the A and B Cup, with B being all the big schools.

Now it looks like there's 4 sections.

I just googled the development Cup, which is the very new schools, and could only find fixtures from 2013. Even still though just look at some of those places

There has been 4 sections for quite some time. These schools will get 1 maybe 2 cup games a year and the odd blitz but they're playing and the schools rugby is a lot about getting interested kids into playing the sport in clubs

Connacht have a similar system with 3 levels of cups and leagues for schools. Munster dont seem to get as many schools in proportion to Connacht and Leinster playing leagues but have a lot just playing one off blitzes and the odd cup game.

stephen_n

CatFromHue wrote: »

It looks like at schools level there's been a huge growth in the game, massive.

Considering there used to just be the A and B Cup, with B being all the big schools.

Now it looks like there's 4 sections.

I just googled the development Cup, which is the very new schools, and could only find fixtures from 2013. Even still though just look at some of those places

Yes and the Leinster branch have been working very hard to develop the game. The point is that yes these difficulties exist but they can be overcome. Pretending Leinster didn't face difficulties in growing the game is pointless.

CatFromHue

I agree, I was just surprised at how well they've been doing so far.

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster have made changes to schools and youths competitions for the better and been looking for ways to improve coaching.

Well this is obviously a major factor and somewhere the IRFU definitely can improve. Better coaching at schools and club underage level would have a very positive impact down the line, in all provinces.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1069942625413857280?s=19

dregin

Deleted User wrote: »

Large parts of the community up north do not engage at all with Ulster rugby due to historical, political and quasi-religious reasons.

Best being Ireland captain has certainly helped a lot but the demographics are not the same and not entirely comparable.

There are a bunch of schools in Leinster locked into a high level competition against each other and many of these schools are quite affluent and can afford to invest in the players, into sports science and will get the buy in from parents who will supplement these costs at home.

Ulster are in a similar situation but interest levels have waned as Ulster has taken hits on and off the field. This will rebound but it's been at a low ebb from what I've read here and elsewhere.

There is absolutely nothing special about Leinster apart from the ground work being put in and no part of that isn't transferable to Ulster or any other environment. There are demographics at play and Leinsters success over the last 10 years has had an impact on uptake in schools and clubs which Ulster hasn't quite similarly enjoyed.

None of this is new information and Ulster are not just aware but seem to be proactively pursuing a more sustainable progression plan both at the top level and at the various entry points for young players. This will take time but if it's sufficiently comprehensive in nature it will begin to bear fruit within the next 5 years.

In the meantime Leinster's talent pool is excessive and it's actually not ideal if they end up turning away a lot of young lads who are definitely good enough. There is almost certainly not going to be a draft, but I imagine within the next decade there will be a bunch of guys who make academies and then a pool that the provinces draw from nationwide to fill in some slots. In this regards, provincial identity might take a hit but not a significant one. I think it will do wonders for the national team however.

There used to be a good deal of animosity between interpro players when pooled together for Ireland camps. This is largely gone and it's absence is certainly part of the teams cohesion and performance levels.

Also, there are nowhere near 2.6 million people in Ulster.

troyzer

dregin wrote: »

Also, there are nowhere near 2.6 million people in Ulster.

I have no idea where he got that figure from. It's just over 2 million.

Squidgy Black

dregin wrote: »

Also, there are nowhere near 2.6 million people in Ulster.

2.1 million people in Ulster according to the last census.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Other provinces can improve, but Leinster need to get used to losing players because it's the only way this IRFU system will survive.

Agreed. There's a lot more the other provinces can be doing, but they'll never get to the level Leinster are at. Which, in the modern game, means players will move about for game time. It's happened with guys like Farrell at Munster as well, so it won't just be Leinster players playing elsewhere. It's the way we get the best out of what is still a relatively limited player base nationally. And I for one am totally okay with that.

awec wrote: »

I would argue that both teams have a first 23 that could at least give Leinster a game at the moment (probably provided Leinster didn't play their absolute best team).

Well yes, but in Munsters case a first choice 23 would involve Marshall, Beirne, Kleyn, Cloete, Stander, Carbery, Conway, Farrell and possibly Mathewson and Haley. That's 8-10 non-Munster players there straight away, which is over a third of the squad at least. Hell at worst it's almost half the squad.

And what of Ulster? Their first choice 23 would probably involve Herring, Moore, Treadwell, Coetzee, Murphy, Cooney, Burns, Addison and Speight. That's 9 players, so similar to Munster.

If we want to guage the provinces success based on developing a 23 that could challenge Leinster then surely we should be looking at teams dominated by those provinces Academy graduates? And if we can't come up with a 15, let alone a 23, that could compete with Leinsters best 15 then surely that just proves that the other provinces are under-performing?

I fully appreciate that Leinster has a number of benefits that the other provinces don't have, but that shouldn't prevent the other provinces from being able to find and develop 15-23 local lads to a high level.

awec wrote: »

The problem is once either side gets an injury or two things go off a cliff. That's what ultimately holds them back, because you can't play your best team every game and injuries are inevitable. If Munster win a European Cup in the next ~5 years I will be astounded, if Ulster do it this decade I'd probably keel over. Neither team is close IMO.

Like one of the big reasons Leinster win trophies is not just because they have really good players, it's because they have lots of them.

I agree with all of this. Depth (or incredible luck on the injury front) is key to winning silverware. That leaves the other provinces in a bit of a bind. The Pro14 isn't out of reach though, as Connacht proves a few years ago and Munster could have the season before last.

molloyjh

As for this weekend, I reckon we should look to air on the side of caution with injured players. I reckon the below would get the job done, including the TBP. We just need to do them what we did to Glasgow last season. Bully them up front. And this 1-10 would be well able to deliver on that.

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Fardy Ruddock VDF

McGrath Sexton
Reid Ringrose
Dave Rob Byrne

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Moloney, Doris, JGP, Byrne, Larmour/ROL

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

As for this weekend, I reckon we should look to air on the side of caution with injured players. I reckon the below would get the job done, including the TBP. We just need to do them what we did to Glasgow last season. Bully them up front. And this 1-10 would be well able to deliver on that.

Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Fardy Ruddock VDF

McGrath Sexton
Reid Ringrose
Dave Rob Byrne

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Moloney, Doris, JGP, Byrne, Larmour/ROL

Thought Larmour is definitely out?

Pack would be fine, that’s a very callow back line though.

Dubinusa

Byrne will have to really step up in his tackling. He's getting an opportunity and he needs to grab it.
I don't see Larmour back until the home match. Leavy also. If Conan is healthy he should get the call.
I would go with Cronin on the bench. He is a beast when he does come on and can really influence a match.
I think it will be s slog and a really hard match on a messy field, so any kind of win is acceptable.

Clegg

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1069942625413857280?s=19

That final pass from Deegan is just stupidly good. Straightens the line, draws two defenders in and floats a perfect skip pass to the wing. There are outside backs that couldn't do that. Is his contract up in 2019? He's someone we should be hanging onto at all costs. Better all round game than most of our other forwards. Just has to put it all together.

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

Thought Larmour is definitely out?

Pack would be fine, that’s a very callow back line though.

There’s a chance Conan, Larmour and ROL could all be available, although I’d doubt they will.

The back line has 5 genuine internationals in it. Reid has played a good bit of Champions Cup rugby at this stage including starting at 12 away to Glasgow last season, as has Byrne who seems to be coming back into some form with some game time behind him.

Buer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1069942625413857280?s=19

Lovely execution but horribly passive defence from the Dragons. Fitzgerald pointed it out on his punditry but the defender had to put pressure on Deegan. The pass to him was accurate but not particularly good, it floated and didn't have much zip on it. It was a perfect opportunity for the defenders to come up and force an error and pressure the ball.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Lovely execution but horribly passive defence from the Dragons. Fitzgerald pointed it out on his punditry but the defender had to put pressure on Deegan. The pass to him was accurate but not particularly good, it floated and didn't have much zip on it. It was a perfect opportunity for the defenders to come up and force an error and pressure the ball.

Absolutely spot on, Dragons didn't want to know for most of the game.

Further example was the lineout. They either forgot everything they've ever learned about running, defending or attacking a line out or they just didn't bother.

If ever a performance showed how unhappy or unprepared a squad is it was Dragons at the weekend. They were pathetic in pretty much everything they barely tried to do.

Squidgy Black

Just watched back the highlights on YouTube there, one thing that stood out to me was the offloads in contact by the forwards. It got us an extra three or four yards in the carry when we did it, and we showed deft hands to pull it off.

Bazzo

stephen_n wrote: »

Population of Ulster 2.6 million, population of Leinster 2.5 million. Leinsters talent doesn’t just materialize out of some numerical advantage. Leinster produce more players because of the systems and procedures they have put in place to develop them. The only real advantage Leinster have over other provinces is the investment certain schools put into rugby. Which has little or nothing to do with the IRFU or the Leinster branch.

Unless you think there are 750,000 people in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan the population of Ulster is not 2.6 million

jacothelad

Chiparus wrote: »

The issue will be the non-eu members ( ie British ) members of the Ulster team, may be ineligible to play for Ulster in Europe?

stephen_n wrote: »

Population of Ulster 2.6 million, population of Leinster 2.5 million. Leinsters talent doesn’t just materialize out of some numerical advantage. Leinster produce more players because of the systems and procedures they have put in place to develop them. The only real advantage Leinster have over other provinces is the investment certain schools put into rugby. Which has little or nothing to do with the IRFU or the Leinster branch.

No it isn't. It is 2,096,000. The population of Leinster at the 2016 census is 2,630,720


The population of N.I. in 2018 is 1.8 million. About 50% of that population is culturally opposed to playing rugby and see it as a British / Unionist thing. The other 50% don't usually get involved in GAA for opposite reasons.



Very little rugby of any serious level is played in the other three counties. Ulster have their first ever player from Co Donegal - population 159,000.
Monaghan has a population of 61,000 and Cavan has a population of 76,000.


Comparing gross populations of Ulster and Leinster is puerile especially when you make the figures up to distort and suit a non existent argument and ignore other societal factors such as a sadly divided society. Even the fact that a very large number of rugby playing school leavers in N.I. travel to G.B. to attend Universities and are lost to rugby in Ireland.