Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

Stout Warrior

The question is whether the status quo is preferable to expanding the game by creating a fifth professional team. By the looks of it there is surplus to requirements coming out of Leinster that could be fed into a midlands team based in Athlone or somewhere there is a catchment for a modest fanbase.

jacothelad

awec wrote: »

Ulster has no fee paying schools. I believe Campbell College is the closest thing Ulster has to a few paying school and it’s not on the same level of any Dublin school.

Yes. There used to be plenty of them and many had flourishing boarding departments. Payment for access to Grammar School education was basically banned at secondary age groups. An unintended consequence of this was the decline in independent control of the Grammar Schools such as MCB, Inst etc. Once these schools - who were academically very successful, usually at the very top of that tree in the UK - had to follow all state curricula, then they lost much of the ability to organise and fund rugby as they would have done in the past. Additionally, guys from Methody etc would happily attend Queens, Trinity, UCD etc but again, changes in how higher education is organised and paid for has led to an even greater brain drain to G.B..



Campbell get around it by having continued with the boarding aspect.

irishbucsfan

Comparing the population is daft. Saying half of Ulster are culturally opposed to rugby is misleading (if it was true I wouldn’t be playing it).

This whole thing is daft. Massive chunks of Leinster don’t want anything to do with rugby either. Rugby is a minority sport everywhere.

If someone has actual playing numbers broken down by county that’d be useful.

Until then it’s a big red herring of an argument. Leinster aren’t so successful because of the droves and droves of playing population that supposedly exist, although it’s certainly at least partly because a very small minority of that population are brought to a very high standard at a handful private schools, which Leinster are very lucky to have. It’s not the entire reason Leinster are successful however and it’s becoming less and less influential over time (albeit fairly slowly).

errlloyd

Effectively the difference right now is pretty largely down to the presence of one school, St Michaels. A school that a decade ago had produced almost no players of note, and now produces 2 or 3 a year. As IBF said it's little to do with the quantity and mostly to do with quality.

The Lost Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

Agreed. There's a lot more the other provinces can be doing, but they'll never get to the level Leinster are at. Which, in the modern game, means players will move about for game time. It's happened with guys like Farrell at Munster as well, so it won't just be Leinster players playing elsewhere. It's the way we get the best out of what is still a relatively limited player base nationally. And I for one am totally okay with that.

Well yes, but in Munsters case a first choice 23 would involve Marshall, Beirne, Kleyn, Cloete, Stander, Carbery, Conway, Farrell and possibly Mathewson and Haley. That's 8-10 non-Munster players there straight away, which is over a third of the squad at least. Hell at worst it's almost half the squad.

And what of Ulster? Their first choice 23 would probably involve Herring, Moore, Treadwell, Coetzee, Murphy, Cooney, Burns, Addison and Speight. That's 9 players, so similar to Munster.

If we want to guage the provinces success based on developing a 23 that could challenge Leinster then surely we should be looking at teams dominated by those provinces Academy graduates? And if we can't come up with a 15, let alone a 23, that could compete with Leinsters best 15 then surely that just proves that the other provinces are under-performing?

I fully appreciate that Leinster has a number of benefits that the other provinces don't have, but that shouldn't prevent the other provinces from being able to find and develop 15-23 local lads to a high level.

I agree with all of this. Depth (or incredible luck on the injury front) is key to winning silverware. That leaves the other provinces in a bit of a bind. The Pro14 isn't out of reach though, as Connacht proves a few years ago and Munster could have the season before last.

It does affect the way the other provinces bring through players and how long it takes to get players to the even pro14 level. Leinster has number of benefits none of provinces excpet maybe Ulster will ever get to.
Just because a province doesnt have 20 or so from their academy in a first strength 23 doesnt mean a province is under performing. For the 2 european games played so far Munster had 13 and 14 players who played age grade, academy playing for them. That is an incredibly good set up.

Stout Warrior wrote: »

The question is whether the status quo is preferable to expanding the game by creating a fifth professional team. By the looks of it there is surplus to requirements coming out of Leinster that could be fed into a midlands team based in Athlone or somewhere there is a catchment for a modest fanbase.

There isnt the depth. A proper venue. ways to properly attract fans or anything else to do it and even if it was in place its far from leinster surplus who are excellent players.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Comparing the population is daft. Saying half of Ulster are culturally opposed to rugby is misleading (if it was true I wouldn’t be playing it).

This whole thing is daft. Massive chunks of Leinster don’t want anything to do with rugby either. Rugby is a minority sport everywhere.

If someone has actual playing numbers broken down by county that’d be useful.

Until then it’s a big red herring of an argument. Leinster aren’t so successful because of the droves and droves of playing population that supposedly exist, although it’s certainly at least partly because a very small minority of that population are brought to a very high standard at a handful private schools, which Leinster are very lucky to have. It’s not the entire reason Leinster are successful however and it’s becoming less and less influential over time (albeit fairly slowly).

Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Antrin lead by distance then hard to say.
Leinster are helped significantly by the private schools and it is being slightly less influencial over time but only very slightly

errlloyd wrote: »

Effectively the difference right now is pretty largely down to the presence of one school, St Michaels. A school that a decade ago had produced almost no players of note, and now produces 2 or 3 a year. As IBF said it's little to do with the quantity and mostly to do with quality.

It is in its **** largely down to one school that markets itself very well. Yes they have produced quite a few recently but to put it down to just them is a load of crap.

stephen_n

Bazzo wrote: »

Unless you think there are 750,000 people in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan the population of Ulster is not 2.6 million

Mea culpa was tired this morning must have read 2.16 as 2.6

leakyboots

What is it that St Michael's have done to produce such players? Curious as to how they go from zip to producing the likes of Ryan et al

errlloyd

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It is in its **** largely down to one school that markets itself very well. Yes they have produced quite a few recently but to put it down to just them is a load of crap.

If for some reason St Michaels fed into the Ulster system instead of the Leinster system we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Scott Penny, Dan Leavy, Ross Molony, James Ryan, Luke McGrath, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Rory O Loughlin, Max Deegan, Nick McCarthy, Josh Murphy

That's 11 players, take them out of Leinster and put them into Ulster, or Munster or wherever the hell you want to. There is sweet FA point to arguing about the population of Leinster when a school of 600 can produce 11 provincial quality players in what, 5 years?

The Lost Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

If for some reason St Michaels fed into the Ulster system instead of the Leinster system we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Scott Penny, Dan Leavy, Ross Molony, James Ryan, Luke McGrath, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Rory O Loughlin, Max Deegan, Nick McCarthy, Josh Murphy

That's 11 players, take them out of Leinster and put them into Ulster, or Munster or wherever the hell you want to. There is sweet FA point to arguing about the population of Leinster when a school of 600 can produce 11 provincial quality players in what, 5 years?

And how much money has the school invested in the sport in that time to do that and compare that to the majority of schools/clubs in the country. The population point around Leinster still very much is a factor even with one school producing much more than they ever have before of players playing top grade rugby.

errlloyd

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And how much money has the school invested in the sport in that time to do that and compare that to the majority of schools/clubs in the country. The population point around Leinster still very much is a factor even with one school producing much more than they ever have before of players playing top grade rugby.

I am not sure what you mean here? The school has probably invested a significant amount. I'd say the funding per player they have in their rugby program is 20 or 30 times what a club would have per player. I am not saying this is some sort of meritocracy, I'm not even sure it's ethical. All I am saying is you don't need lots of players, in fact if your only aim is to stock up a provincial academy your best bet is just investing in a concentrated few.

Stout Warrior

The Lost Sheep quote:

There isnt the depth. A proper venue. ways to properly attract fans or anything else to do it and even if it was in place its far from leinster surplus who are excellent players

Build it and they will come. Expansion during a time of success is the best way to copperfasten and build on that success into the future. To sit on our laurels and try to replicate that success year after year without expansion is a sure fire way to ensure being bypassed or being caught up with by other nations. Also I would advocate the argument for self sustenance by expanding internally is the best way to insure our future should anything happen to the Pro14 should Wales decide to pull out

The Lost Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean here? The school has probably invested a significant amount. I'd say the funding per player they have in their rugby program is 20 or 30 times what a club would have per player. I am not saying this is some sort of meritocracy, I'm not even sure it's ethical. All I am saying is you don't need lots of players, in fact if your only aim is to stock up a provincial academy your best bet is just investing in a concentrated few.

Of course population is a factor. As is the money they put into the sport.
You dont need lots of players but if you dont by and large you need something else like incredible backing to get such numbers into professional set ups like Michaels have.

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Build it and they will come. Expansion during a time of success is the best way to copperfasten and build on that success into the future. To sit on our laurels and try to replicate that success year after year without expansion is a sure fire way to ensure being bypassed or being caught up with by other nations. Also I would advocate the argument for self sustenance by expanding internally is the best way to insure our future should anything happen to the Pro14 should Wales decide to pull out

It isnt anywhere near as simple as build and they will come. You could say the same about the 4 main provinces but there was tradition and everything else with the provinces that already existed. A 5th province has no real base. It has nothing that will attract fans to it. Where do you get the stadium. the coaches. the support?

Squidgy Black

leakyboots wrote: »

What is it that St Michael's have done to produce such players? Curious as to how they go from zip to producing the likes of Ryan et al

Money, and time. They've put in a serious amount of money and effort into creating an almost professional setup for their teams. There's video reviews, strength and conditioning programs that utilise GPS tracking and metrics, Andy Skehan as director of rugby and other decent coaches brought in over the years.

Clegg

Ulster have released Schalk van der Merwe. The IRFU must be angling for one of Dooley or Byrne to move north.

salmocab

Clegg wrote: »

Ulster have released Schalk van der Merwe. The IRFU must be angling for one of Dooley or Byrne to move north.

Well in fairness both are too good to be 4th choice

irishbucsfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Of course population is a factor. As is the money they put into the sport.
You dont need lots of players but if you dont by and large you need something else like incredible backing to get such numbers into professional set ups like Michaels have.

Pretty sure you’re saying exactly the same thing errlloyd is.

leakyboots

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Money, and time. They've put in a serious amount of money and effort into creating an almost professional setup for their teams. There's video reviews, strength and conditioning programs that utilise GPS tracking and metrics, Andy Skehan as director of rugby and other decent coaches brought in over the years.

Makes sense. Tis going to be either a good professional system or drugs! I'm always reminded of Iceland's football model when it comes to small entities/clubs/countries doing well at a specific sport -

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

"Fine. But how have they done it? For once there is a fairly easy answer. This is a command economy kind of fairytale, managed from the top down. There are three clear strands. The first of these is coaching.

Arrigo Sacchi famously suggested elite coaching should be open to people from any walk of life, from elevator operators to stockbrokers. At the end of the last century the Icelandic FA put this into practice. Bolstered by the TV money pouring into every Uefa country, Iceland set up an open, hugely popular training scheme. Currently this nation of 335,000 has around 600 qualified coaches, 400 with Uefa B licences, or one per 825 people. To put this into context, in England this number falls to one per 11,000.

The result is a spread of expertise right down to the lowest level. “Here you need a Uefa B licence to coach from under-10 level up and half of the Uefa B licence to coach under-eights,” Dagur Sveinn Dagbjartsson of the Icelandic FA says. This isn’t simply box-ticking. The Uefa B is one step off the level needed to coach a professional team in England. Yelling dads it ain’t."

leakyboots

Given how loaded the IRFU seem to be, now would be a good time to spend/fund and put further professional structures in place across the country. I get the feeling we've stolen a march on the FAI in terms installing a system of consistently producing quality professional players, but there's no reason why the FAI won't eventually see sense and get their act together.

We're in a bit of a golden era now, no doubt, things should be put in place to ensure it's lasting, can all fall apart pretty quick

wise7

errlloyd wrote: »

If for some reason St Michaels fed into the Ulster system instead of the Leinster system we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Scott Penny, Dan Leavy, Ross Molony, James Ryan, Luke McGrath, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Rory O Loughlin, Max Deegan, Nick McCarthy, Josh Murphy

That's 11 players, take them out of Leinster and put them into Ulster, or Munster or wherever the hell you want to. There is sweet FA point to arguing about the population of Leinster when a school of 600 can produce 11 provincial quality players in what, 5 years?

+ Cian Kelleher, Ronan Kelleher

Kevski

Does anybody know if there’s a match this weekend?

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

Ulster have released Schalk van der Merwe. The IRFU must be angling for one of Dooley or Byrne to move north.

I still have no idea how Dooley hasn't been kidnapped.

He is far too good to be a backup backup to a backup.

Inspector Coptoor

wise7 wrote: »

+ Cian Kelleher, Ronan Kelleher

Plus Denis Coulson & Jack Kelly

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

I still have no idea how Dooley hasn't been kidnapped.

He is far too good to be a backup backup to a backup.

I would be amazed if Ulster didn’t approach him before he signed last year. Maybe he’s happy to wait it out, knowing Healy is getting on a bit now.

Interested Observer

Fairly baffling that Tomane hasn't been replaced in the Euro squad.

And we badly need Larmour to be fit if Lowe isn't going to play. I'd nearly leave out Fardy if Conan is fit, the drop off from Lowe to anyone but Larmour is enormous. Ryan, Toner, Ruddock, VdF, Conan is absolutely fine. Dave Kearney and Byrne on the wings isn't.

Elvisjuice

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Plus Denis Coulson & Jack Kelly

where is coulson ?

Squidgy Black

Elvisjuice wrote: »

where is coulson ?

Playing with Lansdowne, his contract at Connacht wasn't renewed amidst the whole legal situation.

errlloyd

Elvisjuice wrote: »

where is coulson ?

He was released from Connacht over the summer. He has been charged (I think, it's sort of hard to get news in French) in relation to a gang rape involving two other players he played with at Grenoble. In July the witness gave her statement which didn't sound great.

Connacht made a decision with Coulson (and later with Reece) that they weren't going to take the risk.

Serbian

Interested Observer wrote: »

Fairly baffling that Tomane hasn't been replaced in the Euro squad.

And we badly need Larmour to be fit if Lowe isn't going to play. I'd nearly leave out Fardy if Conan is fit, the drop off from Lowe to anyone but Larmour is enormous. Ryan, Toner, Ruddock, VdF, Conan is absolutely fine. Dave Kearney and Byrne on the wings isn't.

I think we're covered for this weekend. We have the option to replace Tomane in the squad again next week. It's a risk using one of your changes now if you have enough quality to cover the injuries.

I'd expect Lowe and JGP to play personally, back three will be Lowe, R. Kearney and D. Kearney / Adam Byrne / Larmour.

I've a feeling we'll have more of our back row are fit than we expect. Locks will be Toner & Ryan with Molony on the bench. Back row will be vdF and Ruddock for sure, one of Leavy and Conan, with Deegan / Doris on the bench. I think that's more than enough to see us through the weekend.

arsebiscuits1

Serbian wrote: »

I think we're covered for this weekend. We have the option to replace Tomane in the squad again next week. It's a risk using one of your changes now if you have enough quality to cover the injuries.

I'd expect Lowe and JGP to play personally, back three will be Lowe, R. Kearney and D. Kearney / Adam Byrne / Larmour.

I've a feeling we'll have more of our back row are fit than we expect. Locks will be Toner & Ryan with Molony on the bench. Back row will be vdF and Ruddock for sure, one of Leavy and Conan, with Deegan / Doris on the bench. I think that's more than enough to see us through the weekend.

I agree yeah I don't think Tomane was in line to play and we still have 4 more games of the Pool stage where we can only replace 2 non front rows.

We will know the lay of the land with regards to injuries after the double header and can make necessary replacements in January

molloyjh

Reid and Ringrose will do the job this weekend if need be. Remember Reid started at 12 away to Glasgow last season. I've a sneaking suspicion that this game may resemble that Glasgow game. Forward dominated game where we just overpower the opposition.

ROL might be back this week. He'll def be back next week and Henshaw was down as being 4-6 weeks. Next week is week 4 so he might be available then too. We should be fine.