Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

stephen_n

case885 wrote: »

Ryan was still in his pomp and starting for us when he was denied a central contract, if anything the Irfu are keeping those kind of players by giving Sexton and Earls new 2 year contracts and Healy, Kearney could well get extensions too if they stay.

Was it not established that Ryan was offered the same money or near to it that he’s getting in France. So the denied a central contract line is a bit redundant.

MarinersBlues

With no confirmation either way surely this should be referred to as

Schrödinger's Central Contract.

Defined for any player on any provincial deal because at the end of the day the IRFU party everyone's wages.

Squidgy Black

troyzer wrote: »

Aki is on central contract money but not a central contract. I think it's €400k a year?

He signed his as a Project player back in 2016, Lowe is rumoured to be on similar enough, just a shorter contract. Generally there's one marquee project/NIQ player allowed per province on big money (the likes of Piatau and Saili come to mind).

case885

stephen_n wrote:

Was it not established that Ryan was offered the same money or near to it that he’s getting in France. So the denied a central contract line is a bit redundant.

There's greater assurance with a central contract that you're a key figure to the national team, only being offered a provincial one was a clear indicator to Ryan that he wasn't.

Buer

Direct quote from Donnacha Ryan.

In the end, from my contract point of view, there was no difference between staying or going.

Shefwedfan

case885 wrote: »

There's greater assurance with a central contract that you're a key figure to the national team, only being offered a provincial one was a clear indicator to Ryan that he wasn't.

In Donnacha Ryans case:

He wasn't a key figure to the national team, that is why he wasn't given a central contract.


He also had a poor injury record and was 30+. It is fairly simple if you look at it from a business point of view. Ireland have far more important players to put onto central contracts


He was also in the position that he hadn't made a huge amount out of rugby so needed a big payday, IRFU wasn't going to offer that because of concerns above so he was better going to France.

[COLOR=inherit !important]


#s3gt_translate_tooltip_mini { display: none !important; }[/COLOR]

stephen_n

case885 wrote: »

There's greater assurance with a central contract that you're a key figure to the national team, only being offered a provincial one was a clear indicator to Ryan that he wasn't.

But he wasn’t a key figure in the national setup.

Interested Observer

case885 wrote: »

Ryan was still in his pomp and starting for us when he was denied a central contract, if anything the Irfu are keeping those kind of players by giving Sexton and Earls new 2 year contracts and Healy, Kearney could well get extensions too if they stay.

Stop making stuff up /believing everything you read.

Dubinusa

Gonna take a stab at the line up.
Dooley
Treacy
Porter
Molony
Fardy
Ruddock
Leavy
Conan
JGP
RB
DK
Reid
ROL
AB
RK

Byrne
Byrne
Bent
Kearney
Deegan
Patterson
Frawley
Keenan.

case885

stephen_n wrote:

But he wasn’t a key figure in the national setup.

How was he not a key figure? At the time he was starting, who would of replaced him in the Irish 23? This was pre Beirne and James Ryan

irishbucsfan

He was a key player when he requested a transfer to Leinster. At exactly that point he became one and when it didn't happen he went back to being extremely average and uninteresting.

Shefwedfan

case885 wrote: »

How was he not a key figure? At the time he was starting, who would of replaced him in the Irish 23? This was pre Beirne and James Ryan

No it wasn't pre Ryan. The last international was v England and Donnacha Ryan started

The end of season tour Roux, Toner, Treadwell and James Ryan all had roles

Next full international was Toner/Henderson starting against South Africa and Ryan was on bench. That AI's Ryan and Dillane got starts as well

Since Donnacha Ryan left Ireland has played 18 and lost 1 match. So no he wasn't a key figure

case885

Shefwedfan wrote:

No it wasn't pre Ryan. The last international was v England and Donnacha Ryan started

Shefwedfan wrote:

The end of season tour Roux, Toner, Treadwell and James Ryan all had roles

Shefwedfan wrote:

Next full international was Toner/Henderson starting against South Africa and Ryan was on bench. That AI's Ryan and Dillane got starts as well

Shefwedfan wrote:

Since Donnacha Ryan left Ireland has played 18 and lost 1 match. So no he wasn't a key figure

What relevance have those games to giving Donnacha Ryan a central contract? He was a starter at the time of contract negotiations.

FrannoFan

A massive amount of chat around central/provincial contracts.

The irfu pay pretty much everyone. (Figures announced a while back)

The money earned by central/provincial contract doesn't have to vary much. Lowe would be on similar money to stockdale etc.

It is largely a book keeping exercise for the irfu. It's difficult to allocate money to a province one year and then remove it another when someone retires etc. Central contracts give the union flexibility with where money is allocated. It can move from one province to another without reducing budgets etc

stephen_n

case885 wrote: »

How was he not a key figure? At the time he was starting, who would of replaced him in the Irish 23? This was pre Beirne and James Ryan

Because he wasn’t a guaranteed starter.

Squidgy Black

FrannoFan wrote: »

A massive amount of chat around central/provincial contracts.

The irfu pay pretty much everyone. (Figures announced a while back)

The money earned by central/provincial contract doesn't have to vary much. Lowe would be on similar money to stockdale etc.

It is largely a book keeping exercise for the irfu. It's difficult to allocate money to a province one year and then remove it another when someone retires etc. Central contracts give the union flexibility with where money is allocated. It can move from one province to another without reducing budgets etc

The way I understand it, which could be wrong, is that each province has a wage budget to use on their squad, including project/NIQ players. The IRFU supplements this with central contracts to ensure our key players get the big money contracts but not at a cost to the province ie having to cut squad numbers or not sign a marquee player because a player like Sexton or Murray is due a pay day.

FrannoFan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The way I understand it, which could be wrong, is that each province has a wage budget to use on their squad, including project/NIQ players. The IRFU supplements this with central contracts to ensure our key players get the big money contracts but not at a cost to the province ie having to cut squad numbers or not sign a marquee player because a player like Sexton or Murray is due a pay day.

That's pretty much it is think. It allows flexibility with budgets. On top of that all contracts have to get the go ahead from irfu so you couldn't blow the budget on an overseas player or whatever.

At the end of the day the irfu management of game time can be called on any player regardless of central contract or not.

irishbucsfan

FrannoFan wrote: »

At the end of the day the irfu management of game time can be called on any player regardless of central contract or not.

Players not on central contracts have to be paid supplementarily

Shefwedfan

case885 wrote: »

What relevance have those games to giving Donnacha Ryan a central contract? He was a starter at the time of contract negotiations.

He started a few games but over the term of the contract he wouldn't have been a starter.



He was also injury prone. So a player signed on central contract who over the term would not be guaranteed his spot and also had previous issues with long term injuries. He himself admitted he thought he would have to quit the season before.



Doesn't sound good business to me.

case885

stephen_n wrote:

Because he wasn’t a guaranteed starter.

He was a guaranteed starter for the 2017 6 nations when his contract was up for renewal, where's the evidence he wasn't?

Shefwedfan

case885 wrote: »

He was a guaranteed starter for the 2017 6 nations when his contract was up for renewal, where's the evidence he wasn't?

Your going around in circles

If he was an important player he would have stayed, he wasn’t and the IRFU/Joe seemed confident they had alternatives. It was up to Munster then but they are so poorly run they couldn’t buy a bag of chips on their own, so he left. Munster blamed the IRFU as per usual.....the actually issue was always with Munster

The results for ireland since he left says it all. If he was such a critical player then Ireland would have struggled but their second rows have flourished, Toner/Henderson and Ryan are excellent and Beirne is on the way

Burkie1203

case885 wrote: »

He was a guaranteed starter for the 2017 6 nations when his contract was up for renewal, where's the evidence he wasn't?

Ryan also wanted to leave. He is on record saying as much himself. Ryan declined the opportunity to negotiate in Nov 16 when Heaslip signed his new contract.

Nucifora and Schmidt made the choice. The evidence is in that alone. He wasn't seen as a guaranteed starter heading towards RWC 2019.

stephen_n

case885 wrote: »

He was a guaranteed starter for the 2017 6 nations when his contract was up for renewal, where's the evidence he wasn't?

He started 3 out of 5 in 2016 and 4 out of 5 in 2017 (thought it was only 3 till I checked). He was never a guaranteed starter, he was competing with Toner and Henderson for starts. Guaranteed starters are players like Best, Furlong, Murray, Sexton, Heaslip, Kearney, who are always picked to start when fit. D Ryan was in the next level down, always in the match day 23 if fit. However age an injury profile where not in his favor. If he was still here now and on the contract you think they should have given him. He would not be in the match day 23, he’d be behind Ryan, Toner and Henderson, vying with Beirne.

Donnacha Ryan is a really good player, possibly could have been a great one but for injury. However he wasn’t at the time and was never ever going to be vital to the Irish setup.

arsebiscuits1

My favourite thing about the whole Ryan not getting a central contract debacle was all those down South ****ting themselves that Heaslip got one and treating it like they were the same

Sheep Shagger

Some Toulouse tickets back on public sale

https://www.ticketmaster.ie/event/18005558BF2A798F?camefrom=CFC_IE_CLI_LEINSTER_RUGBY_FBTOU&brand=ie_leinster

Dubinusa

But would Heaslip have been worth the central contract?
At his age Conan surely would have been pushing him and Stander may have passed him for the national team.
Surely age must factor into these contracts. Unless, it is a Sexton type issue, where the gulf is pretty big.

salmocab

Dubinusa wrote: »

But would Heaslip have been worth the central contract?
At his age Conan surely would have been pushing him and Stander may have passed him for the national team.
Surely age must factor into these contracts. Unless, it is a Sexton type issue, where the gulf is pretty big.

When? He was never anything but first choice for Ireland once he broke in and was very much still that until his career effectively ended. I’d be very confident that he’d still be a guaranteed starter now but luckily backrow was a place we had serious depth so it’s not been a concern.

Squidgy Black

Stander wasn't going to push Heaslip out of the team at 8. And Conan wasn't going to overtake him at Leinster.

When he bowed out he was at the top of his game. One of the best true number 8s we've had.

Interested Observer

Dubinusa wrote: »

But would Heaslip have been worth the central contract?
At his age Conan surely would have been pushing him and Stander may have passed him for the national team.
Surely age must factor into these contracts. Unless, it is a Sexton type issue, where the gulf is pretty big.

Yes.

/discussion

Neil3030

Oooooh i like this. Arguing over hypothetical scenarios involving Heaslip presents limitless opportunities.