Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

salmocab

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

surprised at that. but 220 of a cheque is a large payday for me.
I come from outside the traditional Leinster heartland.

Northsider?

Rigor Mortis

salmocab wrote: »

Northsider?

West side. Like the Northside but more knives.

Nouveau Northside

irishbucsfan

Let them eat betting slips

durthacht

Dubinusa wrote: »

I hope to see the mixed squad again this week. Giving the younger lads the opportunity during the interpro's is great to see. It puts them in a high stakes environment and really tests them.
With Ulster in the same pool, I think we'll go full strength for that match, with an eye on the European clashes shortly after.
I'd like to see.
Dooley
Treacy
Porter
Toner
Fardy
Murphy
Leavy
Deegan
Luke
Byrne
Lowe
Reid
JOB
A Byrne
RK

Byrne
Byrne
Vakh
Kearney
Penny
Patterson
Frawley
COB

A strong enough side and a mix.

Good team but I'd rather ROL at 12 alongside JOB and Maloney in the second row. Both need game time I think.

Serbian

Also very unlikely Penny will be involved in this one. I’d guess we won’t see him again until the Six Nations.

Plus, we need to pick both Deegan and Doris so Munster can figure out which one they want next season.

Thermoman12

Serbian wrote: »

Also very unlikely Penny will be involved in this one. I’d guess we won’t see him again until the Six Nations.

Plus, we need to pick both Deegan and Doris so Munster can figure out which one they want next season.

Munster already have enough backrows, they don’t need any of Leinster’s tbh

troyzer

Thermoman12 wrote: »

Serbian wrote: »

Also very unlikely Penny will be involved in this one. I’d guess we won’t see him again until the Six Nations.

Plus, we need to pick both Deegan and Doris so Munster can figure out which one they want next season.

Munster already have enough backrows, they don’t need any of Leinster’s tbh

They had five outhalves before taking Carbery.

Five scrumhalves as well and are still taking McCarthy.

They have form on pinching players at positions they already look set at. They're not doing it to fill a need, they're using it to upgrade.

Interested Observer

troyzer wrote: »

They had five outhalves before taking Carbery.

Five scrumhalves as well and are still taking McCarthy.

They have form on pinching players at positions they already look set at. They're not doing it to fill a need, they're using it to upgrade.

They pretty obviously weren't, and possibly still aren't, set at out half.

troyzer

Interested Observer wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

They had five outhalves before taking Carbery.

Five scrumhalves as well and are still taking McCarthy.

They have form on pinching players at positions they already look set at. They're not doing it to fill a need, they're using it to upgrade.

They pretty obviously weren't, and possibly still aren't, set at out half.

They are, they have warm bodies there. That's my point. This isn't like Connacht where a few injuries meant they have a hole at centre and Daly went over. Munster have loads of warm bodies at out half they can work on to try and improve. They weren't looking to fill a hole, they were looking to upgrade on players they failed to develop themselves

Former Former

Munster didn't pinch Carbery, he was sent there by the people who outrank everyone at Leinster and Munster.

Interested Observer

troyzer wrote: »

They are, they have warm bodies there. That's my point. This isn't like Connacht where a few injuries meant they have a hole at centre and Daly went over. Munster have loads of warm bodies at out half they can work on to try and improve. They weren't looking to fill a hole, they were looking to upgrade on players they failed to develop themselves

If 'set' means they can cover an injury or two then yeah, they're all set. But if 'set' means challenging for trophies then absolutely not.

They'd a load of bang average players. Any team can get warm bodies into the squad. They were far from 'set' because none of the warm bodies were remotely good enough.

troyzer

Interested Observer wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

They are, they have warm bodies there. That's my point. This isn't like Connacht where a few injuries meant they have a hole at centre and Daly went over. Munster have loads of warm bodies at out half they can work on to try and improve. They weren't looking to fill a hole, they were looking to upgrade on players they failed to develop themselves

They'd a load of bang average players. Any team can get warm bodies into the squad. They were far from 'set' because none of the warm bodies were remotely good enough.

Then make then better. Or develop new, better players.

Munster shouldn't be allowed to just raid other provinces because they're proven their incompetence at developing fly halves. They've only really produced one quality 10 in the entire professional era.

Look, I know that Carbery is a bit of a special case because of the world cup. But raiding Leinster's backrow would be a step too far.

Interested Observer

troyzer wrote: »

They've only really produced one quality 10 in the entire professional era.

But I thought they were set?

If you think I'm arguing in favour of them signing more Leinster players, well I'm not at all. But they've signed players in positions of weakness. Of course it would be preferable to develop their own.

troyzer

Interested Observer wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

They've only really produced one quality 10 in the entire professional era.

But I thought they were set?

If you think I'm arguing in favour of them signing more Leinster posters, well I'm not at all. But they've signed players in positions of weakness. Of course it would be preferable to develop their own.

There are two levels of position weakness:

1) You're devestated by injury. This is why I don't have a problem with loans like Nagle or Daly. They aren't getting game time in Leinster and those provinces would have needed to sign someone anyway. If they stay at the end of the season, fair enough.

2) Your players aren't good enough. I don't think you should be allowed to use another provinces riches as a get out of jail card for your inability to develop top players. If your five fly halves aren't good enough and you need a new one, then maybe your team isn't good enough and you don't deserve to win a Heineken cup semi final. Your success should be based on how good your organisation is, not on how much you can pinch from other teams.

Faugheen

I'd make the case that, at the time, Munster shouldn't have been given a 10 over Ulster.

Before signing Burns, Ulster had McPhillips, and even at the time it wasn't set in stone that he was going to stay either.

Ulster had a genuine, special case emergency. Their 10 (who they had developed) was kicked out, and I'm not particularly interested in getting into the logistics of that, and the man they had got in short-term to replace him while the trial was ongoing had left.

Munster should have been told to get lost, and much more of an effort should have been made to move Carbery up north.

As I've said before regardless, I still think Carbery's best position is 15. Most of his excellent play for Munster has come from the full-back position.

irishbucsfan

Munster weren’t given a 10 over Ulster

Shefwedfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster weren’t given a 10 over Ulster

Playing the IRFU line now :P


Carberry needed to play more at 10. IRFU decided he wasn't playing enough in Leinster at 10. Everyone knows he was told to move or risk his World Cup spot.....what should of happened was go to Joey and say. Ok you need to move but at the moment Ulster is the best fit or Connacht. You don't like it then we will give 2 year contract and you can pick then....simple. Even Friend in Connacht has said this is the way to get players over to Connacht from Leinster......



Munster had a back up of 10's already, so he shouldnt have got the option.



It was discussed a few years ago that Munster was been run poorly from the top down, a full review was to happen. Rassie came in and nothing happened, if anything they have got worse. The signing of Matheson was a joke but the fact they resigned him when Murray was back from injury was a bigger joke. I seen on the Munster thread about resiging him again to cover Murray for the WC

Try_harder

How many popped collars do I need to wear for the Toulouse match lads? And how high should the collar be?

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Playing the IRFU line now :P


Carberry needed to play more at 10. IRFU decided he wasn't playing enough in Leinster at 10. Everyone knows he was told to move or risk his World Cup spot.....what should of happened was go to Joey and say. Ok you need to move but at the moment Ulster is the best fit or Connacht. You don't like it then we will give 2 year contract and you can pick then....simple. Even Friend in Connacht has said this is the way to get players over to Connacht from Leinster......



Munster had a back up of 10's already, so he shouldnt have got the option.



It was discussed a few years ago that Munster was been run poorly from the top down, a full review was to happen. Rassie came in and nothing happened, if anything they have got worse. The signing of Matheson was a joke but the fact they resigned him when Murray was back from injury was a bigger joke. I seen on the Munster thread about resiging him again to cover Murray for the WC

If the alternative for Carbery was to collect splinters on the bench or go abroad then it's not the best use of resources. Munster had options at 10 that were injured again and again or deemed not good enough.

Bleyendaal - Injured
Keatley - Not good enough
JJH - Not good enough
Johnston - Inexperienced and injury prone

Munster had also developed a starter in Johnny Holland who was forced to retire. If you're Carbery Munster was the obvious choice over Connacht or Ulster.

Mathewson was signed with Murray and Hart injured. The remaining 9s were Williams and Cronin who was an unknown quantity from the AIL. It turns out Mathewson is an excellent option and Munster want to ensure they progress in Europe. Mathewson isn't blocking anyone who is in the Ireland picture.

You can put your pitchfork away now.

troyzer wrote: »

2) Your players aren't good enough. I don't think you should be allowed to use another provinces riches as a get out of jail card for your inability to develop top players. If your five fly halves aren't good enough and you need a new one, then maybe your team isn't good enough and you don't deserve to win a Heineken cup semi final. Your success should be based on how good your organisation is, not on how much you can pinch from other teams.

That's great for natural justice, but it doesn't marry with Irish Rugby's goals at all.

Jump_In_Jack

Carbery had the choice to go to a Ulster or Munster or Connacht,
Connacht were in the Challenge Cup,
Ulster were not going well,
And Munster were making Euro and Pro14 semi-finals and had O’Mahony, Stander and Murray to partner up with.

Ulster got Leali’ifano for half a season and they got Billy Burns this season, who is out-performing Carbery, so Ulster are doing ok from the IRFU.
They also have Lowry and McPhillips that are both potentially better than JJH and Keatley.

Munster weren’t sure if Bleyendaal would recover and even now I’m not sure they will use him as an out-half much til his contract runs out this summer.

If anyone wants either Keatley or Bleyendaal I’m sure a loan could be organized for the rest of the season, Munster don’t need both of them anymore.

Shefwedfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

If the alternative for Carbery was to collect splinters on the bench or go abroad then it's not the best use of resources. Munster had options at 10 that were injured again and again or deemed not good enough.

Bleyendaal - Injured
Keatley - Not good enough
JJH - Not good enough
Johnston - Inexperienced and injury prone

Munster had also developed a starter in Johnny Holland who was forced to retire. If you're Carbery Munster was the obvious choice over Connacht or Ulster.

Mathewson was signed with Murray and Hart injured. The remaining 9s were Williams and Cronin who was an unknown quantity from the AIL. It turns out Mathewson is an excellent option and Munster want to ensure they progress in Europe. Mathewson isn't blocking anyone who is in the Ireland picture.

You can put your pitchfork away now.

That's great for natural justice, but it doesn't marry with Irish Rugby's goals at all.

How many chance did Holland get?

No pitchfork. The point of each province is to promote and provide players to the Irish team.

Connacht, Leinster and Ulster are all bringing in young players to the team and giving them a chance.

Munster is not. Simple as that. Flying in over the hill foreign players is not really a long term plan. You put Holland up in lights and he played 11 times in 3 years.

JJ has never got a chance, he left because Munster wouldn't play him when he was young.

What do fans really think? are they ok with the fact Munster no longer produce and bring young local players into the first team. If I was a young player about to enter the Munster academy now I would head off to the other 3 academies because at least you might get a shot at the first tea,

It is either an over the hill foreign player or try and grab someone walking out of the Leinster training ground.

Rigor Mortis

thomond2006 wrote: »

Mathewson was signed with Murray and Hart injured. The remaining 9s were Williams and Cronin who was an unknown quantity from the AIL. It turns out Mathewson is an excellent option and Munster want to ensure they progress in Europe. Mathewson isn't blocking anyone who is in the Ireland picture.

I was ok with the signing of Mathewson, but the resigning is wrong. it's further poor use of financial resources by Munster in the half backs. Also, Cronin and Hart are being blocked in terms of future development. Are they in the Ireland picture now, no, but his presence does block future development and there are multiple options there.

Interested Observer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Connacht, Leinster and Ulster are all bringing in young players to the team and giving them a chance.

Munster is not. Simple as that.

Ulster had I think 2 homegrown players in their starting XV for the game against Munster. They'd 8 players from outside Ireland, 4 from Leinster and 1 from Munster. So I don't really agree it's as simple as that. I'm pretty sure Connacht are no better than Munster in that regard either.

Neither Ulster nor Munster are pulling their weight. Connacht are probably doing about as well as they can given their small population/penetration of rugby.

kingofthekong

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Carbery had the choice to go to a Ulster or Munster or Connacht,
Connacht were in the Challenge Cup,
Ulster were not going well,
And Munster were making Euro and Pro14 semi-finals and had O’Mahony, Stander and Murray to partner up with.

Ulster got Leali’ifano for half a season and they got Billy Burns this season, who is out-performing Carbery, so Ulster are doing ok from the IRFU.
They also have Lowry and McPhillips that are both potentially better than JJH and Keatley.

Munster weren’t sure if Bleyendaal would recover and even now I’m not sure they will use him as an out-half much til his contract runs out this summer.

If anyone wants either Keatley or Bleyendaal I’m sure a loan could be organized for the rest of the season, Munster don’t need both of them anymore.

He also had two school mates in Loughman and Oliver down in Munster

stephen_n

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I was ok with the signing of Mathewson, but the resigning is wrong. it's further poor use of financial resources by Munster in the half backs. Also, Cronin and Hart are being blocked in terms of future development. Are they in the Ireland picture now, no, but his presence does block future development and there are multiple options there.

Hart is barely Pro 14 standard, he is 27 years old and not really going to develop anymore. Cronin had a long term injury. There is no issue with Mathewson signing on considering Murray will be gone for 2 months around the 6N. Neither Hart nor Cronin will ever develop to Irish team level, given their age, experience and ability. Mathewson was a very prudent signing for Munster.

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many chance did Holland get?

No pitchfork. The point of each province is to promote and provide players to the Irish team.

Connacht, Leinster and Ulster are all bringing in young players to the team and giving them a chance.

Munster is not. Simple as that. Flying in over the hill foreign players is not really a long term plan. You put Holland up in lights and he played 11 times in 3 years.

JJ has never got a chance, he left because Munster wouldn't play him when he was young.

What do fans really think? are they ok with the fact Munster no longer produce and bring young local players into the first team. If I was a young player about to enter the Munster academy now I would head off to the other 3 academies because at least you might get a shot at the first tea,

It is either an over the hill foreign player or try and grab someone walking out of the Leinster training ground.

Holland got a chance when he was fit and became the starter. He was injured for two years which explains the lack of appearances in total.

At the same time, turning around and saying JJ never got a chance is hilarious. He got plenty under different head coaches and was deemed not good enough.

Suggesting Munster haven't brought young players into the team and don't produce players is laughable. Can we do better? Sure.

All the provinces have been guilty of signing dud temporary players. Munster sign a fantastic one and get criticised?

Sorry for derailing the thread.

Podge_irl

Dubinusa wrote: »

With Ulster in the same pool, I think we'll go full strength for that match, with an eye on the European clashes shortly after.

Nominally perhaps, but I think the intra-pool arithmetic has long since stopped mattering.

I think they will edge towards the stronger team for Munster.

Rigor Mortis

stephen_n wrote: »

Hart is barely Pro 14 standard, he is 27 years old and not really going to develop anymore. Cronin had a long term injury. There is no issue with Mathewson signing on considering Murray will be gone for 2 months around the 6N. Neither Hart nor Cronin will ever develop to Irish team level, given their age, experience and ability. Mathewson was a very prudent signing for Munster.

Hart is pro 14 standard, which is the standard your cover is supposed to be. He is covering Murray for pro 14 as is Cronin.

Mathewson was a prudent signing, that doesnt mean he is a reasonable resigning.

Interested Observer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Holland got a chance when he was fit and became the starter. He was injured for two years which explains the lack of appearances in total.

At the same time, turning around and saying JJ never got a chance is hilarious. He got plenty under different head coaches and was deemed not good enough.

Suggesting Munster haven't brought young players into the team and don't produce players is laughable. Can we do better? Sure.

All the provinces have been guilty of signing dud temporary players. Munster sign a fantastic one and get criticised?

Sorry for derailing the thread.

The sample size on Holland is much too small. He has about 10 Munster caps.

thomond2006

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Hart is pro 14 standard, which is the standard your cover is supposed to be. He is covering Murray for pro 14 as is Cronin.

Mathewson was a prudent signing, that doesnt mean he is a reasonable resigning.

Hart isn't covering anything. He's been injured all season.