Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

stephen_n

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Hart is pro 14 standard, which is the standard your cover is supposed to be. He is covering Murray for pro 14 as is Cronin.

Mathewson was a prudent signing, that doesnt mean he is a reasonable resigning.

How can Hart be deemed Pro 14 standard when he has barely managed 10 games in 2 seasons. Because he did ok in Grenoble for 1 season. He is well behind Duncan Williams who is Pro 14 standard. Hart was never good enough, that’s why he never made it at Leinster.

Of course it’s reasonable, if we only had Nick McCarthy and Patterson as our SH options, I guarantee we’d be going for someone like Mathewson.

Bridge93

There has to be a balance. It’s all very well pushing for Irish qualified players at every possible opportunity. But if that’s to the detriment of performances it has to managed. It’s no good having 15 Irish qualified players if the provinces begin to lose regularly especially when said Irish players are of no international use. The provinces are feeders for Ireland but that can’t be their sole purpose.

troyzer

Bridge93 wrote: »

There has to be a balance. It’s all very well pushing for Irish qualified players at every possible opportunity. But if that’s to the detriment of performances it has to managed. It’s no good having 15 Irish qualified players if the provinces begin to lose regularly especially when said Irish players are of no international use. The provinces are feeders for Ireland but that can’t be their sole purpose.

If your team is incapable of developing quality players then surely your results on the pitch should reflect that?

Munster do give up on young players and resort to imports VERY quickly.

durthacht

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many chance did Holland get?

No pitchfork. The point of each province is to promote and provide players to the Irish team.

Connacht, Leinster and Ulster are all bringing in young players to the team and giving them a chance.

Munster is not. Simple as that. Flying in over the hill foreign players is not really a long term plan. You put Holland up in lights and he played 11 times in 3 years.

JJ has never got a chance, he left because Munster wouldn't play him when he was young.

What do fans really think? are they ok with the fact Munster no longer produce and bring young local players into the first team. If I was a young player about to enter the Munster academy now I would head off to the other 3 academies because at least you might get a shot at the first tea,

It is either an over the hill foreign player or try and grab someone walking out of the Leinster training ground.

That statement is simply wrong.

According to the IRFU website, almost one third (30%) of the Irish squad for the Six Nations 2018 played for Munster and half of those were developed through the Munster academy. To say Munster do not promote and provide players for the Irish team is nonsense.

For a province with a much smaller population and much fewer underage players available to them, Munster are doing fine by the national team.

I just don't understand this sad parochialism to ridicule other provinces.

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

If your team is incapable of developing quality players then surely your results on the pitch should reflect that?

Munster do give up on young players and resort to imports VERY quickly.

What young players have Munster given up on that eventually went on to prove them wrong?

Bridge93

troyzer wrote: »

If your team is incapable of developing quality players then surely your results on the pitch should reflect that?

Munster do give up on young players and resort to imports VERY quickly.

Well they’re not incapable of producing players they just don’t produce as many. Leinster current regime has totally distorted what is seen as a normal production line and the spending of the French and English has changed the game in that you can’t get away with hiding a few dud locals in your XV anymore.

It’s a very Irish thing to expect the provinces to be totally populated with locals. while I hope the idea remains, is unsustainable in its extreme form and in an increasingly pro game. Pro club sport sees players move around. If you are not doing well you move on players and get in new ones. In 99% of clubs in sports it doesn’t really matter where they’re from. In Irish rugby we control it to a certain extent but it shouldn’t be absolute

sydthebeat

When munster played cheetahs at the start of the season, 12 of the starting 15 were brought through the munster academy. 16 of the match day 23.

To say munster don't give youth a chance and the don't develop their own players is simply incorrect.

Population and game playing numbers simply don't match Leinster's, and that's not their fault.

jacothelad

sydthebeat wrote: »

When munster played cheetahs at the start of the season, 12 of the starting 15 were brought through the munster academy. 16 of the match day 23.

To say munster don't give youth a chance and the don't develop their own players is simply incorrect.

Population and game playing numbers simply don't match Leinster's, and that's not their fault.

Common sense and knowledge at last instead of triumphalist, knee jerk, self pleasuring congratulations.

Buer

If only some put as much energy and concentration into supporting Leinster as they do into attempting to criticise Munster.

salmocab

Buer wrote: »

If only some put as much energy and concentration into supporting Leinster as they do into attempting to criticise Munster.

In fairness it’s like life in general, the noisy minority are heard as the majority aren’t shouting.

Dubinusa

I think some of the lads that have left the provinces were not given an opportunity. At least in terms of the IRFU could have possibly moved them to another province.
Whitten at Exeter is a good player who never really had an opportunity. He's excelling in Exeter and would have been a good addition to another province.
Steenson and Annett are other examples.
Dave Foley could have been coaxed to go to Ulster?
I know players make the decisions, but there are some very good players who have slipped through the net.
Carberry did what he thought was right. He went to a really good side and is making a go of it.
Ulster will not be too disappointed as Burns is a good oh and Mcphillips will develop too.
Even Cian Kelleher made a good choice. At Leinster he'd be competing with 2 or 3 lads for match time. At Connacht he's flourishing.
The loan deals that have happened this week are good for Irish rugby. Nagle is getting lots of minutes, Fitzgerald is already in the 23 for Connacht and Tom Daly may get a run.
But, there will be some who will go to England this year. I see Lam trying to get someone from Connacht over to Bristol. Eoin McKeon?
Noel Reid will likely leave too. Unless he can be persuaded to go to another province.
Dave O Callaghan most likely will not be retained and he may go overseas also.
It's tough to gauge who will leave and who could move to another province.
If you look at the Nottingham squad, you're going to find a load of ex Munster players. I'm not saying these lads are top quality, but 1 or 2 of them could be good at one of the provinces.

Bridge93

A cohort of Leinster fans on here share a striking resemblance to some of the Liverpool fans over in the football forum. Spend more time yapping about Man Utd than their own side. Enjoy the success without being dicks about it. Arrogance is never a good look. Remember how quickly it can all go to **** like it did under MOC. What goes around will come around

joseywhales

I thought that the irfu have limitations on the number of foreign players per province and per position nationally, if we stick to those I don't see the problem, Irish players should be shifted around internally as is required and if the player agrees obviously, what's the big deal, we are maximising our resources and maintaining a winning culture, what's not to be happy about?

salmocab

Bridge93 wrote: »

A cohort of Leinster fans on here share a striking resemblance to some of the Liverpool fans over in the football forum. Spend more time yapping about Man Utd than their own side. Enjoy the success without being dicks about it. Arrogance is never a good look. Remember how quickly it can all go to **** like it did under MOC. What goes around will come around

Those guys exist everywhere, if any of the other provinces were flourishing like Leinster are there would be a minority of supporters lording it over Leinster supporters same as when man utd were successful plenty of their fans were obsessed with Liverpool.

In fact there was a Connacht supporter 3 years ago who got banned a couple of times for coming into the Leinster forum to gloat constantly.

Faugheen

Bridge93 wrote: »

A cohort of Leinster fans on here share a striking resemblance to some of the Liverpool fans over in the football forum. Spend more time yapping about Man Utd than their own side. Enjoy the success without being dicks about it. Arrogance is never a good look. Remember how quickly it can all go to **** like it did under MOC. What goes around will come around

Let's not pretend it's just Leinster fans here.

There are multiple people who clearly show more of a hatred towards Leinster for example than support their own provinces.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but to single out one province isn't the most compelling argument.

troyzer

Lads you're forgetting that I'm talking about this in the context of Leinster losing back rows.

I couldn't care less how Munster runs their club except that in this instance, it's being allowed to negatively impact on Leinster. Unfairly.

Leinster have loads of advantages that have to be acknowledged but at the same time, what's the point in having a well oiled machine in the academy if it's not being used to strengthen Leinster?

It doesn't help Munster or their young players either to know that they can simply give up and import a Leinster or overseas player. If there's no punishment for academy weakness, how is it ever supposed to get better?

Again, Carbery was a special case and I don't mind Daly and the likes making the move. But there really is a possibility that Leinster will lose VDF or Leavy in the summer. Pointing out how unfair it is that Leinster should weaken their squad to prop up other provinces is not being an arrogant dick.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

What young players have Munster given up on that eventually went on to prove them wrong?

No answer?

Kevski

troyzer wrote: »

Lads you're forgetting that I'm talking about this in the context of Leinster losing back rows.

I couldn't care less how Munster runs their club except that in this instance, it's being allowed to negatively impact on Leinster. Unfairly.

Leinster have loads of advantages that have to be acknowledged but at the same time, what's the point in having a well oiled machine in the academy if it's not being used to strengthen Leinster?

It doesn't help Munster or their young players either to know that they can simply give up and import a Leinster or overseas player. If there's no punishment for academy weakness, how is it ever supposed to get better?

Again, Carbery was a special case and I don't mind Daly and the likes making the move. But there really is a possibility that Leinster will lose VDF or Leavy in the summer. Pointing out how unfair it is that Leinster should weaken their squad to prop up other provinces is not being an arrogant dick.

Has there been any indication the either VDF leave will leave Leinster this summer? Other than some baseless speculation on boards, there’s none that I can see.

I’m my opinion, there is no possibility that either will leave Leinster nor is there any need for them to. Both are regularly starting for Ireland and Leinster so there is no issue here.

Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

No answer?

You'd have to go back to the days of Kidney when players like Cronin, Ross and Reddan were forced elsewhere but I'd struggle to name anyone from the last 5 years.

Bridge93

I’m not saying it’s only Leinster. But I couldn’t care less how the fans of other clubs behave, I’d rather our fan base didn’t act like ***** behind the safety of their keyboards. Let others act the maggot, they’ll end up with egg on their face as most in the past have and become the topic of jokes

Peregrine

This thread has been about Munster more often than Leinster for the past two weeks.

troyzer

Peregrine wrote: »

This thread has been about Munster more often than Leinster for the past two weeks.

Fair point!

Does anyone know what sort of time frame we can expect Lancaster to announce a decision about his future?

thomond2006

Former Former wrote: »

You'd have to go back to the days of Kidney when players like Cronin, Ross and Reddan were forced elsewhere but I'd struggle to name anyone from the last 5 years.

Exactly and in those cases they were blocked by other Irish players.

Dubinusa

thomond2006 wrote: »

Exactly and in those cases they were blocked by other Irish players.

But there have been poor imports too? Sailli was garbage and there was a winger from S.A also who was poor. I can't remember his name. The IRFU went and got Farrell for Munster. I'm not complaining about that, but now there's a good center who may not get a look in, Shane Daly.
I really have high Hope's for Gavin Coombes and Jack O Sullivan. I think they'll be top quality. Liam O Connor also. Munster developing young local lads is best for Irish rugby.
The same goes for all the provinces. Ulster seem to be moving in the right direction. Connacht have done well with limited resources.
It's obvious that Leinster can't accommodate everyone and so players leaving is not a bad thing, but a VDF to Munster would block a young Munster lad from any opportunity.
Anyway, Munster have a cracking squad and are very competitive. That's what really matters.

thomond2006

Dubinusa wrote: »

But there have been poor imports too? Sailli was garbage and there was a winger from S.A also who was poor. I can't remember his name. The IRFU went and got Farrell for Munster. I'm not complaining about that, but now there's a good center who may not get a look in, Shane Daly.
I really have high Hope's for Gavin Coombes and Jack O Sullivan. I think they'll be top quality. Liam O Connor also. Munster developing young local lads is best for Irish rugby.
The same goes for all the provinces. Ulster seem to be moving in the right direction. Connacht have done well with limited resources.
It's obvious that Leinster can't accommodate everyone and so players leaving is not a bad thing, but a VDF to Munster would block a young Munster lad from any opportunity.
Anyway, Munster have a cracking squad and are very competitive. That's what really matters.

Unless a player who is 'blocked' leaves and succeeds somewhere else, then the player wasn't worth leaving 'unblocked' in the first place. In the case of Chris Farrell and Tadhg Beirne, their development was disrupted through injury at their home province. Two of the Munster players you mention, Jack O'Sullivan and Liam O'Connor, are both coming off serious injuries.

I'm not sure why a Leinster backrow going to Munster is being discussed. Munster are absolutely stacked in the backrow. POM and Stander aren't going anywhere soon and Cloete, Oliver and TOD are competing for the 7 jersey. In a RWC season I don't see Leinster losing a backrow player to another province.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not sure why a Leinster backrow going to Munster is being discussed. Munster are absolutely stacked in the backrow. POM and Stander aren't going anywhere soon and Cloete, Oliver and TOD are competing for the 7 jersey.

Because VDF would be an immediate upgrade over Cloete, Oliver and TOD and that seems to be a good enough reason these days

Heymans

troyzer wrote: »

Because VDF would be an immediate upgrade over Cloete, Oliver and TOD and that seems to be a good enough reason these days

Think you're overstating VDFs level. He had one game with a high tackle count and people think he's the messiah. Cloete and TOD are a match for VDF

troyzer

Heymans wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Because VDF would be an immediate upgrade over Cloete, Oliver and TOD and that seems to be a good enough reason these days

Think you're overstating VDFs level. He had one game with a high tackle count and people think he's the messiah. Cloete and TOD are a match for VDF

You do realise that VDF played a blinder against the All Blacks only a month ago? Cloete left South Africa because he couldn't break into the Boks and while TOD is a solid player, he's the wrong side of 30 and he's been really unfortunate with injuries over the last while.

Heymans

troyzer wrote: »

You do realise that VDF played a blinder against the All Blacks only a month ago? Cloete left South Africa because he couldn't break into the Boks and while TOD is a solid player, he's the wrong side of 30 and he's been really unfortunate with injuries over the last while.

VDF is only so highly thought of because he is in winning teams. I don't think his physicality matches that of cloete and I would say cloete is better on the deck. TOD is getting past it but in his day he was top class

Faugheen

Heymans wrote: »

Think you're overstating VDFs level. He had one game with a high tackle count and people think he's the messiah. Cloete and TOD are a match for VDF

With the greatest of respects to Cloete and TOD, neither are within an asses roar of VDF. In fact, there isn’t a 7 in Ireland anywhere near his level at the moment, including Dan Leavy.