Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

troyzer

molloyjh wrote: »

The adidas stuff is actually not that bad for the most part. The black training jersey is class. Most of the other stuff is at least decent. The only thing that is clearly horrendous is the alternate jersey. But then we had that fire warden jacket last season so that seems to be a theme.

The big issues with the jerseys is the fact that the logos, stars etc are all ironed on. This means they will inevitably come off in the wash at some point. For the price that we're being charged I don't think it's much to expect a bit more.

I found the material in the jerseys to be a bit cheap feeling too. But not horribly so. For me it's a case of a lot of it being "fine" and not really willing to pay the prices they are going at for something that's just fine. I really like the home and European jerseys from last year so I'll continue using those for now.

The jacket feels very cheap for the price. You could get a better waterproof jacket in Aldi for €20, the markup because it's Adidas and Leinster is extraordinary. I don't remember Adidas ever feeling like bargain basement quality. The jersey isn't that bad material wise but I know the print isn't going to last until Christmas if I wear it at every match.

Squidgy Black

Buer

Clegg wrote: »

Tbh I don't think Dom Ryan was ever a very good player. With Leinster he was an exceptionally hard worker but that was about it. He never had the ability at the breakdown nor ball carrying skills to make it in Leinster's backrow.

Ah, he was a very decent ball carrier in his first few years before the injuries started mounting. He had an excellent turn of pace in the loose.

He was never going to cut it as a top player at the breakdown though, I agree. I didn't get the point in playing him at openside. He was a hard hitting, rucking and carrying player who could offer a decent line out option. He had blindside written all over him but only when paired with an openside who could compensate at the breakdown.

I do think he was a very useful player and, if he had kept fit, could have had a very good career. It would have been interesting if he had agreed to go to Paris when Cheika wanted to bring him along; I reckon the T14 could have really suited his style.

arsebiscuits1

Clegg wrote: »

Tbh I don't think Dom Ryan was ever a very good player. With Leinster he was an exceptionally hard worker but that was about it. He never had the ability at the breakdown nor ball carrying skills to make it in Leinster's backrow.

Yeah. It's why he only got 113 caps :pac:

irishbucsfan

Apart from the injuries, I think the worst thing to happen to him was Mike Ruddock being sacked by the WRU.

Out of interest where would Tadgh Beirne fit into the reckoning at Leinster? Second and backrow are stacked but he's obviously a big talent at the same time.

Squidgy Black

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of interest where would Tadgh Beirne fit into the reckoning at Leinster? Second and backrow are stacked but he's obviously a big talent at the same time.

It'd pretty much be him v Fardy I think. They both fit the same mould of 2nd row/back row and would fill the same sort of spot in the 23.

If Fardy wasn't in the picture I could see him in the 2nd row with Ryan, Toner on the bench. Can't see him in the backrow unless we had a long list of injuries.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of interest where would Tadgh Beirne fit into the reckoning at Leinster? Second and backrow are stacked but he's obviously a big talent at the same time.

Well, if we had him 12 months ago, we wouldn't have signed Fardy. But if he was to arrive tomorrow, I think he'd share game time between lock and blindside slotting in as required.

Does he start in a full strength side? Probably not to be honest. Toner and Ryan are a superb partnership for Leinster and Ireland and I wouldn't break that up. I'd probably have Fardy slightly ahead of him. I've posted beforehand but when they faced off last season, Fardy was comfortably the better of the two even allowing for their respective packs. Beirne was not at the races at all in either game he played in the Aviva.

I'd gladly have him though as he'd still get a tonne of game time for us and could well leapfrog one of those above over the course of the season. But the simple fact is that he isn't needed at Leinster right now.

Unfortnately, we do have an issue coming down the tracks at lock. Toner is 32 and probably has a good 3 seasons left. Fardy's contract is up next summer. The other locks in our squad are all falling into a filler role unless Molony really steps up and gets back on track.

There is going to be a lot of expectation on the three lads in the academy.

irishbucsfan

I think he'd probably be a pretty ideal bench option given he can cover either position and he's capable of changing a game with his influence at the breakdown.

I think starting at 6 would be his most likely way into the Leinster team, but I'd have Ruddock or (fit) O'Brien ahead of him there.

But it'd be too much really. With everyone fit we'd be choosing between Van Der Flier, O'Brien and Leavy at 7 and Ruddock, O'Brien and Beirne at 6. Too many. Especially when you've got to find time to develop Caelan Dorris, Josh Murphy and Will Connors who are all impressive prospects at 6/7.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

Does he start in a full strength side? Probably not to be honest. Toner and Ryan are a superb partnership for Leinster and Ireland and I wouldn't break that up. I'd probably have Fardy slightly ahead of him.

What are you smoking? Beirne was comfortably the best player in the Pro14 last year. He fully deserved player of the year. He was gassed at the end of the season because of the amount of minutes he played and was neutralised by Leinster as a result. He played over 2,000 minutes last year and managed to win 57 turnovers and score 10 tries. By contrast, Fardy had 1,500 minutes, 11 turnovers and 4 tries. They are in different leagues in terms of production.

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

What are you smoking? Beirne was comfortably the best player in the Pro14 last year. He fully deserved player of the year. He was gassed at the end of the season because of the amount of minutes he played and was neutralised by Leinster as a result. He played over 2,000 minutes last year and managed to win 57 turnovers and score 10 tries. By contrast, Fardy had 1,500 minutes, 11 turnovers and 4 tries. They are in different leagues in terms of production.

Ah we're measuring the productivity of 2nd rows in tries and turnovers now!

Former Former

Fardy was brilliant for us last season. Is Beirne better? I don't know. I'm still pretty skeptical of him to be honest, I am still to be convinced he can make the step up to the top level.

Heymans

Toner is the best lineout operator on this island by a mile.

All talk of leaving him out of first team selections is futile IMO.

James Ryan although young and just off his first season has to prove he can run a lineout before he gets plaudits from me in this regard.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

What are you smoking? Beirne was comfortably the best player in the Pro14 last year. He fully deserved player of the year. He was gassed at the end of the season because of the amount of minutes he played and was neutralised by Leinster as a result. He played over 2,000 minutes last year and managed to win 57 turnovers and score 10 tries. By contrast, Fardy had 1,500 minutes, 11 turnovers and 4 tries. They are in different leagues in terms of production.

Cool.

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah we're measuring the productivity of 2nd rows in tries and turnovers now!

Well they're the most useful measurable stats. What else do you propose? Beirne would have to be a pretty dog**** scrummager to balance out ridiculous skills at the breakdown.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

Well they're the most useful measurable stats. What else do you propose? Beirne would have to be a pretty dog**** scrummager to balance out ridiculous skills at the breakdown.

Ruck work, scrummaging, tackle count, line out work etc. are generally more relevant to a lock play than what you cited.

By your metrics, Beirne is a better player than Paul O'Connell at his peak.

Rigor Mortis

Buer wrote: »

Ruck work, scrummaging, tackle count, line out work etc. are generally more relevant to a lock play than what you cited.

By your metrics, Beirne is a better player than Paul O'Connell at his peak.

We all know Paulie was overated. Its just good that someone came out and called it for what it is.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

Ruck work, scrummaging, tackle count, line out work etc. are generally more relevant to a lock play than what you cited.

By your metrics, Beirne is a better player than Paul O'Connell at his peak.

I can't speak for scrummaging or lineout because they're much harder to compare objectively given the number of other moving parts outside of their control but both are equally productive defensively with Beirne fluffing less tackles.

salmocab

Another ridiculous argument takes off, based on last season I’d take Fardy every day he was said exactly what Leinster needed someone with a lot of dog in him although that said Beirne was probably what Scarlets needed with the work rate and turn overs.

Heymans

troyzer wrote: »

I can't speak for scrummaging or lineout because they're much harder to compare objectively given the number of other moving parts outside of their control but both are equally productive defensively with Beirne fluffing less tackles.

Paulie could operate a lineout. It's what made him world class.


Second rows should prinarily do their basics well scrummaging and lineout work - anything else like loose play and turnovers is gravy.

Burkie1203

troyzer wrote: »

Well they're the most useful measurable stats. What else do you propose? Beirne would have to be a pretty dog**** scrummager to balance out ridiculous skills at the breakdown.

Fardy was doing a different job.

Would POM and Stander perform the same role when they wore 6 for Ireland ?

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

I can't speak for scrummaging or lineout because they're much harder to compare objectively given the number of other moving parts outside of their control but both are equally productive defensively with Beirne fluffing less tackles.

So this is just a measurability bias

AdamD

They're completely different players...

thegreycity

salmocab wrote: »

Another ridiculous argument takes off, based on last season I’d take Fardy every day he was said exactly what Leinster needed someone with a lot of dog in him although that said Beirne was probably what Scarlets needed with the work rate and turn overs.

Another ridiculous argument takes off... now let me dive right into it.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

I can't speak for scrummaging or lineout because they're much harder to compare objectively given the number of other moving parts outside of their control but both are equally productive defensively with Beirne fluffing less tackles.

Lets look at that then. In the Champions Cup, Fardy played 511 minutes and made 73 tackles, missing another 3.

Beirne played 632 minutes making 94 tackles, missing 7.

So that doesn't really stack up. If you want to see a fluffed tackle, watch James Ryan's try in the European semi final.

They're both excellent players but Fardy certainly doesn't fluff tackles especially when you consider he missed some of the pool stages and about half of his game time came in the knock outs in crunch games. I'd take either of them at Leinster in a heartbeat but with Fardy's big game experience and power in the tight, I'd go with him initially.

salmocab

thegreycity wrote: »

Another ridiculous argument takes off... now let me dive right into it.

Oh nobody loves a ridiculous argument like me, especially an internet one.

irishbucsfan

So anyway Frawley won't be available to start the season it seems. No Will Connors either which is a shame.

I'd guess something like

Dooley, Tracy, Bent, Fardy, Molony, Murphy, Ruddock, Deegan
McGrath, Reid, Daly, Tomane, ROL, Byrne, Lowe

Which is OK. Hopefully we'll get Frawley and Ross Byrne back available ASAP and we'll have proper depth at 10 again. Biggest worry at this stage. Byrne has relatively little mileage from the summer so might see him back much sooner... although obviously the concern would be the season to come for him rather than the season just gone.

errlloyd

Can't help but be sickened we gave away an in contract outhalf over the summer....

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

Can't help but be sickened we gave away an in contract outhalf over the summer....

He wouldn't have been available anyway so it wouldn't have made a difference.

What's the word on Frawley - I've heard nothing as to the seriousness or otherwise of the knock he took?