Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well quoted.....

Except as I mentioned the English and French teams have little or no interest in Europe apart from Saracens, Toulouse and Racing.



You forgot to quote that part?



The majority of the English and French team rank winning the Premiership/Top14 over Europe. The teams listed above don't. This is nothing new, hence why when Ireland teams get french teams like Castre etc they hope to get the away tie towards the end of the pool so they will have lost interest and they can get an away win

I think Exeter really want it.

salmocab

We’ve got from Byrne should be in the Irish camp to Byrne being overtaken by Frawley here.
It’s not obligatory to post constantly.

Team for Sunday?
Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan VDF
JGP Sexton
ROL Ringrose
Lowe Kearney Larmour

troyzer

salmocab wrote: »

We’ve got from Byrne should be in the Irish camp to Byrne being overtaken by Frawley here.
It’s not obligatory to post constantly.

Team for Sunday?
Healy Cronin Furlong
Toner Ryan
Ruddock Conan VDF
JGP Sexton
ROL Ringrose
Lowe Kearney Larmour

It is REQUIRED to constantly swing outrageously from polar opposite view points.

This. Is. Boards.

That team looks about right, I think SOB might get the start though.

Do Premiership teams do poorly in Europe because:

A. They've no interest
B. They aren't good enough

Given the gap between Saracens, Exeter and the rest and those two teams being the only teams in contention in Europe - I'm going to go with B.

Sure why would they keep trying to change the premier European rugby competition if they had no interest.

It's a poor league with serious structural problems and mounting debt issues that they've sold their soul to try and resolve.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

I think Exeter really want it.

Rob Baxter was on podcast this week. He already had excuses lined up saying the extra 2 days for Munster gave them a huge advantage and that Europe should line it up better.

They also sent the B team over to Glou when they lost at home, they won and then got some interest again......how much is debateable

Squidgy Black

Deleted User wrote: »

Do Premiership teams do poorly in Europe because:

A. They've no interest
B. They aren't good enough

Given the gap between Saracens, Exeter and the rest and those two teams being the only teams in contention in Europe - I'm going to go with B.

Sure why would they keep trying to change the premier European rugby competition if they had no interest.

It's a poor league with serious structural problems and mounting debt issues that they've sold their soul to try and resolve.

Both. On a good day the Premiership sides would be contending at least, not dominant or favourites, but due to the fact most of their players get destroyed in their domestic league, they're pretty much a non-factor in Europe.

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Both. On a good day the Premiership sides would be contending at least, not dominant or favourites, but due to the fact most of their players get destroyed in their domestic league, they're pretty much a non-factor in Europe.

They are no more competitive against the top teams in their own league than they are against French and Pro14 teams in the Heineken cup.

When is the last time Munster or Leinster lost a physical battle against a team other than Saracens or Exeter?

It's just a poor league with mostly average teams. I don't think there are justifiable excuses anymore.

troyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

They are no more competitive against the top teams in their own league than they are against French and Pro14 teams in the Heineken cup.

When is the last time Munster or Leinster lost a physical battle against a team other than Saracens or Exeter?

It's just a poor league with mostly average teams. I don't think there are justifiable excuses anymore.

Castres?

molloyjh

troyzer wrote: »

Castres?

He means from the Premiership surely, given that’s what you are talking about?????

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Do Premiership teams do poorly in Europe because:

A. They've no interest
B. They aren't good enough

Given the gap between Saracens, Exeter and the rest and those two teams being the only teams in contention in Europe - I'm going to go with B.

Sure why would they keep trying to change the premier European rugby competition if they had no interest.

It's a poor league with serious structural problems and mounting debt issues that they've sold their soul to try and resolve.

Are you trying to say the Pro14 is a better league to the Premiership? because based on your European arguement that is what I think you are saying....

If you talk to the fans, the debt issues are blown up in the press and not really a true reflection. Most of the clubs are run correctly and have invested hugely in stadiums/academies so the longer term furture for the club is in good hands


Similar to what the Man Utd etc done back in the day. They have huge backing from TV money and this is only increasing with each new contract. Some of the Worlds best players are moving to the league.

The English Rugby Union is the richest in World, registered players is highest or near the highest in the World.

I think some people read an article in Irish paper and get a very Irish view on everything. These billionaries are not investing in these clubs for the fun of it, they see a long term plan where they can turn huge profits. Like the soccer clubs have done. At the moment the Premiership rugby is at the stage Premiership soccer was at in late 90's early 2000's.....


Most of the clubs lose a game and switch off, I can't remember the name of the explayer but I think he was on BT last week and he said it out after the Wasps v Bath match. You don't want to lose but you don't really care.

Interested Observer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Rob Baxter was on podcast this week. He already had excuses lined up saying the extra 2 days for Munster gave them a huge advantage and that Europe should line it up better.

They also sent the B team over to Glou when they lost at home, they won and then got some interest again......how much is debateable

He's not wrong about the rest times. 2 extra days is huge.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you talk to the fans, the debt issues are blown up in the press and not really a true reflection. Most of the clubs are run correctly and have invested hugely in stadiums/academies so the longer term furture for the club is in good hands

Didn't all of them, bar Exeter, operate at a loss last season?

salmocab

When English teams were winning and competing well in Europe it was because they played in a tough league week in and out. Now they are in the main doing poorly it’s also because they play in a tough league week in and out.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Didn't all of them, bar Exeter, operate at a loss last season?

I think so, but as I mentioned I am on anothe forum. A load of English fans


The reason they are operating at a loss is because they are investing hugely in the actual club. Academies, stadiums etc are all getting improved.


Yes they blow money on signings but that is covered by the TV money anyway and they need to invest in players to keep the TV money coming. No point buying no stars or the TV money would drop.


The Irish press look at the losses and focus on signing XYZ, what they don't mention is what the clubs are doing in back ground?


Saracens is always thrown out as an example of badly run. But they invested hugely in academy. They had a SA player on regular on Brian Moore podcast, he used to go on about the whole ethos of the club was changing and academy was the way forward. Hence the likes of Itoje are appearing. They have build up stadium, new pitch. I think a new stand is been done soon....never hear that mentioned?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Are you trying to say the Pro14 is a better league to the Premiership? because based on your European arguement that is what I think you are saying....

That's exactly what I am saying and have said previously. It is also evidently true by pretty much any metric.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

At the moment the Premiership rugby is at the stage Premiership soccer was at in late 90's early 2000's.....

Good for them, when they start producing competitive teams I'll take notice. Right now they've two good teams and loads of dross.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Most of the clubs lose a game and switch off, I can't remember the name of the explayer but I think he was on BT last week and he said it out after the Wasps v Bath match. You don't want to lose but you don't really care.

They lose a game and switch off because if you lose a home game your chances of qualifying are all but gone. No different to Leinster in 2015.

That doesn't mean they don't care at all - it just means they aren't competitive enough to stay in the mix beyond the opening round or two.

Dai Young lamented Leinsters depth and has been ridiculed even by English media for taking aim at a club with extensive home grown talent.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think so, but as I mentioned I am on anothe forum. A load of English fans


The reason they are operating at a loss is because they are investing hugely in the actual club. Academies, stadiums etc are all getting improved.


Yes they blow money on signings but that is covered by the TV money anyway and they need to invest in players to keep the TV money coming. No point buying no stars or the TV money would drop.


The Irish press look at the losses and focus on signing XYZ, what they don't mention is what the clubs are doing in back ground?


Saracens is always thrown out as an example of badly run. But they invested hugely in academy. They had a SA player on regular on Brian Moore podcast, he used to go on about the whole ethos of the club was changing and academy was the way forward. Hence the likes of Itoje are appearing. They have build up stadium, new pitch. I think a new stand is been done soon....never hear that mentioned?

Look at those two points. Why are the English clubs only doing now what the Provinces have been doing for well over a decade.

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at those two points. Why are the English clubs only doing now what the Provinces have been doing for well over a decade.

An additional point to this is that, if you go back to 2009, Exeter wouldn't even be featuring in this conversation. Proof positive that it can be done. (In fact, I've quite favourably lifted this from Wikipedia)

During the regular league season (2009), Exeter finished second behind Bristol.

Rigor Mortis

aloooof wrote: »

Didn't all of them, bar Exeter, operate at a loss last season?

Not just last season. A one year loss is not an issue, the issue is sustained losses.

stephen_n

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Similar to what the Man Utd etc done back in the day. They have huge backing from TV money and this is only increasing with each new contract. Some of the Worlds best players are moving to the league.

The English Rugby Union is the richest in World, registered players is highest or near the highest in the World.

I think some people read an article in Irish paper and get a very Irish view on everything. These billionaries are not investing in these clubs for the fun of it, they see a long term plan where they can turn huge profits. Like the soccer clubs have done. At the moment the Premiership rugby is at the stage Premiership soccer was at in late 90's early 2000's.....


.

It’s funny you should draw comparisons with premiership soccer. There are interesting parallels there alright. In the 90’s and early 2000’s English clubs dominated in Europe. Since then they have fallen away significantly. As more money has come in, the quality has diminished and they have fallen behind in Europe. The premiership is no longer the best league in Europe, it’s more competitive but the overall product isn’t as good.

aloooof

stephen_n wrote: »

It’s funny you should draw comparisons with premiership soccer. There are interesting parallels there alright. In the 90’s and early 2000’s English clubs dominated in Europe. Since then they have fallen away significantly. As more money has come in, the quality has diminished and they have fallen behind in Europe. The premiership is no longer the best league in Europe, it’s more competitive but the overall product isn’t as good.

Peak "Doing a Leeds".

troyzer

With Penny going to the U20s, who the hell is going to play openside during the Six Nations? Leavy will be taken at some point.

So after injuries and call ups, the only back rowers on the books are Deegan, Doris and Murphy. None of them are opensides though Murphy can probably do in a pinch.

Winters

Deleted User wrote: »

Do Premiership teams do poorly in Europe because:

A. They've no interest
B. They aren't good enough

Given the gap between Saracens, Exeter and the rest and those two teams being the only teams in contention in Europe - I'm going to go with B.

Sure why would they keep trying to change the premier European rugby competition if they had no interest.

It's a poor league with serious structural problems and mounting debt issues that they've sold their soul to try and resolve.

There are an incredible amount of Brexit parallels with the ERC debacle. I can only imagine that it's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.

aloooof

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Not just last season. A one year loss is not an issue, the issue is sustained losses.

Agreed. I think in 2015/16 all but 2 of them operated at a loss.

Squidgy Black

troyzer wrote: »

With Penny going to the U20s, who the hell is going to play openside during the Six Nations? Leavy will be taken at some point.

So after injuries and call ups, the only back rowers on the books are Deegan, Doris and Murphy. None of them are opensides though Murphy can probably do in a pinch.

More than likely Murphy. We'll be stuck playing two 6's, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

troyzer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

More than likely Murphy. We'll be stuck playing two 6's, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Who's going to wear the 20 jersey? Are all three players expected to play four games in a row with no substitute?

This might mean that Joe is either not taking Leavy at all or he's going to rotate the Leinster back row out of Ireland camp.

There's no way you can play four games in a row with only three backrow players.

Buer

There is only one weekend where the 6N and the Pro14 clash. Those not in the 23 are generally released back to their teams. Whether Cullen selects them given the fact they may not have been training significantly with Leinster is another story. Penny will also be available on those weekends. Guys who have been involved with senior provincial sides have been held out of U20 teams on a number of occasions in the past too when their province has called on them.

I would expect us to have one of Leavy/VDF/SOB available for all three of our games during the 6N as long as Leavy gets back to fitness. The only way it doesn't happen asisde from injury (and it's not too unlikely) is that one of them starts for Ireland, one of them benches and one of them is the 24th man for the weekend of the 22nd/23rd of February when we play the Kings at home.

We'll also have Ruddock available more than likely who has some limited experience at 7 including a couple of starts there this season.

Plenty of options.

dub_skav

Lowe could cover 7, would be a shorter run for him to slap backs after a good scrum / turnover.

Shefwedfan

salmocab wrote: »

When English teams were winning and competing well in Europe it was because they played in a tough league week in and out. Now they are in the main doing poorly it’s also because they play in a tough league week in and out.

The point Rob Baxter made, which makes sense.


They have load of young players in academy. They are restricted to what they can offer in an academy contract so other clubs can come in and steal them. So they have to bring them into senior squad too early. They are then restricted in the senior squad because of the salary cap.

So they are left with player in senior squad who are not ready to play in Premiership. They have then to pay them wages which could be used for senior player, so they let senior players go. This reduces the players in the senior squad.


So it ends up with so many games they can't rest players. So long story short, throw a competition and it is normally Europe because the Premiership is their bread and butter.


Very logical to me.



Take the Pro 14. Leinster have played the second squad for majority of games and are 16 points or something clear in the pool. So the main players can rest for the big European games. It is a huge advantage.

stephen_n

aloooof wrote: »

Peak "Doing a Leeds".

Is doing a wasps the rugby equivalent?

Winters

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The point Rob Baxter made, which makes sense.


They have load of young players in academy. They are restricted to what they can offer in an academy contract so other clubs can come in and steal them. So they have to bring them into senior squad too early. They are then restricted in the senior squad because of the salary cap.

So they are left with player in senior squad who are not ready to play in Premiership. They have then to pay them wages which could be used for senior player, so they let senior players go. This reduces the players in the senior squad.


So it ends up with so many games they can't rest players. So long story short, throw a competition and it is normally Europe because the Premiership is their bread and butter.


Very logical to me.



Take the Pro 14. Leinster have played the second squad for majority of games and are 16 points or something clear in the pool. So the main players can rest for the big European games. It is a huge advantage.

A solution to that would be an agreement not to take each others academy players.