Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

thegreycity

thegreycity wrote: »

Sending him off to Connacht for game time instead of giving him game time at Leinster is the exact reason we lost him to Connacht. How is that planning for the future? He was 24 at the time while Reddan and Boss were 33/34 respectively.

If Cullen sent McCarthy off to Connacht on loan it would be a pretty clear message of the value they place in him.

The truth is in the middle. He would be in a ferocious battle with Luke McGrath right now and it would really save us a headache if we had held onto him. He may however have gone straight north for the same reasons when Pienaar left so there is no crystal ball here.

Similarly at the time Cooney was an uncertain entity and MOC was under pressure to keep a top flight European team in the top flight. Had we lost games with Cooney getting the nod ahead of experienced operators like Boss and Reddan the short term damage would have been problematic whereas the longer term issue relating to succession planning was still 'far away'.

thegreycity

Realistically, the league offers us a lot of opportunity to get younger players experience. In the 13/14 season, before Cooney was sent on loan, he got 5 appearances, compared with Reddan and Boss getting 22 apiece. That year we won the league, topped our H Cup pool and got knocked out by the eventual champions, so I would hardly say MOC was under pressure when he was deciding to not play Cooney and eventually send him on loan.

Edit: Just to add, if Reddan and Boss had been in their late 20s instead of early 30s, there would be no problem with those appearances figures. Fact is everyone at the time was calling for the younger guys to be given minutes because they could see what was ahead.

Former Former

thegreycity wrote: »

Sending him off to Connacht for game time instead of giving him game time at Leinster is the exact reason we lost him to Connacht. How is that planning for the future? He was 24 at the time while Reddan and Boss were 33/34 respectively.

If Cullen sent McCarthy off to Connacht on loan it would be a pretty clear message of the value they place in him.

No, it would be the equivalent of Cullen sending Hugh O'Sullivan to Connacht. Cooney was fourth choice. Reddan and Boss were still the second and third choice for the national side and Luke McGrath was the better prospect. There simply wasn't room for Cooney.

It was the right thing to do, much as it may pain some people to consider anything remotely positive about MOC. Time to get over it lads.

thegreycity

It's pure blinkers to pretend it wasn't a failure in succession planning. Munster made the hard decision to loan Stringer as he got older. Leinster didn't do it for their older scrum-halves and all the evidence that it was the wrong decision is in front of us today.

Former Former

thegreycity wrote: »

It's pure blinkers to pretend it wasn't a failure in succession planning. Munster made the hard decision to loan Stringer as he got older. Leinster didn't do it for their older scrum-halves and all the evidence that it was the wrong decision is in front of us today.

No. Stringer had already fallen down the pecking order and made the request himself that he be allowed out on loan in order to prolong his own career.

If Cooney hadn't been loaned out, he'd either have got no game time or he'd have deprived McGrath of time. Both seem like bad options to me.

thegreycity

thegreycity wrote: »

It's pure blinkers to pretend it wasn't a failure in succession planning. Munster made the hard decision to loan Stringer as he got older. Leinster didn't do it for their older scrum-halves and all the evidence that it was the wrong decision is in front of us today.

The player has a say whether they go on loan or stay or leave the club altogether. MOC couldn't have forced Reddan or Boss anywhere.

I'd like if Cooney was with Leinster at the moment but I don't think this is a stick to beat MOC with of which there are plenty.

errlloyd

I don't think Cooney was 4th choice when he left. He was on the bench in the Heineken Cup final. But even if he was 4th choice he had only just been overtaken by third and they were about to be 1 and 2.

The truth is that if Cooney doesn't go to Connacht he doesn't become the player he is now. He's not a game changing finisher. He's a general, the lad is a chess player. Management is his strong suit and it's not what we need. We just need a lad with a razer sharp pass to give Sexton or Byrne quick ball. A modern Stringer. A service provider.

thegreycity

Deleted User wrote: »

The player has a say whether they go on loan or stay or leave the club altogether. MOC couldn't have forced Reddan or Boss anywhere.

I'd like if Cooney was with Leinster at the moment but I don't think this is a stick to beat MOC with of which there are plenty.

Interesting, I didn't realise a player could refuse a loan move. But I still think when you're persisting with players in their 30s whose quality had dropped off instead of giving your younger players minutes you have failed to plan for the future. Plenty of people at the time said it was wrong to rely on Reddan/Boss so much.

thegreycity

Former Former wrote: »

No. Stringer had already fallen down the pecking order and made the request himself that he be allowed out on loan in order to prolong his own career.

If Cooney hadn't been loaned out, he'd either have got no game time or he'd have deprived McGrath of time. Both seem like bad options to me.

Neither of those options fall under "succession planning" which would have been to keep your younger scrumhalves and reduce game time for the ones in their mid 30s who had slowed down substantially. They may have been behind Murray for Ireland, but that just demonstrates how thin our resources were there during that time. Marmion hadn't established himself yet the only other IQ option was Paul Marshall in Ulster.

thegreycity

thegreycity wrote: »

Interesting, I didn't realise a player could refuse a loan move. But I still think when you're persisting with players in their 30s whose quality had dropped off instead of giving your younger players minutes you have failed to plan for the future. Plenty of people at the time said it was wrong to rely on Reddan/Boss so much.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but a lot of this is hindsight and circumstance. Cooney could have been another player that just couldn't make it as a pro. He hadn't really shown anything to suggest he was a provincial starter and he never got beyond Marmion at Connacht.

At the time maybe things could have been managed better, maybe there are aspects to decisions that we are blind too.

Either way, the best result for Ireland is the way things have played out - even if it is to Leinster's potential loss (I still think if he was no.2 with Leinster he'd have gone straight north the second Pienaar left).

molloyjh

I'm actually quite torn on the Cooney thing. I get FFs point entirely, and Luke McGrath was clearly overtaking Cooney when Cooney was sent to Connacht on loan. However both Reddan and Boss were also clearly coming to the end of their careers prior to that. Cooney went from 16 appearances in 12-13 to just 5 in 13-14 though. That's a pretty big drop off. Luke McGrath went from 3 to 8 caps that season (from 1 start to 0 starts too). So between them that was just 13 caps compared to 19 the previous season. At a time when our 2 front line 9s were getting older and less reliable it seems a bit odd that the younger lads were getting less time, and not more.

Luke McGraths game time in the 13-14 season didn't increase to any great degree. He played 39 extra minutes all season, only twice playing for more than 20 mins. Was that really enough of a change in approach to justify the 232 less minutes Cooney got?

I don't recall the injury situations across the 2 seasons so that might have a bearing, and the situation at 10 definitely had a bearing too, but I still think a lot of young guys got the short end of the stick. Cooney being a very good example. We saw very real improvements in his game over the previous 2 seasons (remember having to bring in Cillian Willis in September 2011 because Cooney wasn't good enough!?) and then he just seemed to be cast aside. Could we have done much different?

Well, hindsight is 20:20 but I'd like to think we could have done a bit more. We had 2 young guys coming through who looked good and 2 older guys on the way out. We signed Boss onto a new 2 year contract at 34 while Reddan was only a few months off 34 himself and got a 2 year contract too. If both were really required for those 2 years then we didn't really have room for Cooney, but were they required?

Heymans

Whatever about what happened in Cooney moving to Connacht I think he has the all round better game than McGRath now and Joe seems to agree. Better athlete and manager of game althoughh McGRath seems to give the game pace I'd prefer a kicking scrumhalf who has a better break off the base and can turn 2V2 into 3V2's

stephen_n

Heymans wrote: »

Whatever about what happened in Cooney moving to Connacht I think he has the all round better game than McGRath now and Joe seems to agree. Better athlete and manager of game althoughh McGRath seems to give the game pace I'd prefer a kicking scrumhalf who has a better break off the base and can turn 2V2 into 3V2's

Huh? McGrath is probably the second best kicking scrumhalf in the country behind Murray. Unless you’re referring to goal kicking, which would be irrelevant with Leinster, as neither Johhny or RB are likely to give up kicking duties. McGrath was also carrying injuries going into the summer, we have no real idea till the Ai’s who’s ahead of who if both are fit.

Squidgy Black

Attacking from the base of the ruck certainly isn't a weakness of McGrath.

Also, people forget that Cooney didn't exactly set Connacht alight. The conversation wasn't Marmion vs Cooney for the starting spot, but rather Blade vs Cooney for the backup.

He's done very well for himself given the situation in Ulster, but I can imagine very few seen him reaching these levels.

awec

Just needed some decent coaching.

Former Former

I don't think Cooney will be much of a feature for the national team. I just don't think he's that good. I think his goal kicking gets him a lot of credit that he wouldn't get based purely on his SH play.

Whether Marmion or McGrath are significantly better right now is not really clear but I think they (McGrath in particular) have more room to improve.

jacothelad

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just thought of a joke so bad I need to put a spoiler tag around it:

Did you hear about the bar that didn't serve Jameson?

He forgot his I.D.

I suspect you have a concussion.......:D

Squidgy Black

awec wrote: »

Just needed some decent coaching.

You heard it here first folks, awec admits that Les Kiss and Gibbs were the best coaching ticket in Ireland last year

pickarooney

Former Former wrote: »

No, it would be the equivalent of Cullen sending Hugh O'Sullivan to Connacht. Cooney was fourth choice. Reddan and Boss were still the second and third choice for the national side and Luke McGrath was the better prospect. There simply wasn't room for Cooney.

It was the right thing to do, much as it may pain some people to consider anything remotely positive about MOC. Time to get over it lads.

Why did we keep Reddan and Boss? They were always both going to retire around the same time; one of them should have been offered to another province. Why did we even sign Boss in the first place, can anyone remember? Did Ulster not need him?

Interested Observer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Attacking from the base of the ruck certainly isn't a weakness of McGrath.

Also, people forget that Cooney didn't exactly set Connacht alight. The conversation wasn't Marmion vs Cooney for the starting spot, but rather Blade vs Cooney for the backup.

He's done very well for himself given the situation in Ulster, but I can imagine very few seen him reaching these levels.

I don't think that's true at all, he was pushing Marmion pretty hard and he was well ahead of Blade.

He's a talented player and it's pretty obvious that Leinster didn't handle him very well. It's a real shame what should have been his breakthrough years coincided with MOC being coach.

Dubinusa

Ulster had Pienaar and Marshall. Boss and Reddan were good players, but we probably kept
them too long.

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Attacking from the base of the ruck certainly isn't a weakness of McGrath.

Also, people forget that Cooney didn't exactly set Connacht alight. The conversation wasn't Marmion vs Cooney for the starting spot, but rather Blade vs Cooney for the backup.

He's done very well for himself given the situation in Ulster, but I can imagine very few seen him reaching these levels.

Sorry, as a Connacht fan, I dont think you know what you are talking about.
Cooney was comfortably ahead of Blade in the pecking order. In fact, it was never even a debate.

For me personally, Marmion was always marginally better than Cooney, but when Cooney started for us, I was never disappointed. The drop off in quality was negligible. That is not the case with Blade.
There was plenty of games that Marmion started, and Cooney changed when he came off the bench. If you told me that we had to swap Marmion for McGrath or Cooney tomorrow, I'd take Cooney back without any hesitation. I'd only take McGrath over Blade

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, as a Connacht fan, I dont think you know what you are talking about.
Cooney was comfortably ahead of Blade in the pecking order. In fact, it was never even a debate.

For me personally, Marmion was always marginally better than Cooney, but when Cooney started for us, I was never disappointed. The drop off in quality was negligible. That is not the case with Blade.
There was plenty of games that Marmion started, and Cooney changed when he came off the bench. If you told me that we had to swap Marmion for McGrath or Cooney tomorrow, I'd take Cooney back without any hesitation. I'd only take McGrath over Blade

I suppose that's a familiarity thing, because as a Leinster fan, I wouldn't take Marmion or Cooney ahead of McGrath. I guess that's because I see him play more often, as you would with Connacht players.

Former Former

pickarooney wrote: »

Why did we keep Reddan and Boss? They were always both going to retire around the same time; one of them should have been offered to another province. Why did we even sign Boss in the first place, can anyone remember? Did Ulster not need him?

We kept Reddan and Boss because they were the best we had. You don't generally offer your better players to other teams. We signed Boss in the first place because we needed him and Ulster had just signed Pienaar.

The question was not keeping Cooney over Boss or Reddan, it was Cooney or McGrath, MOC chose McGrath.

awec

pickarooney wrote: »

Why did we keep Reddan and Boss? They were always both going to retire around the same time; one of them should have been offered to another province. Why did we even sign Boss in the first place, can anyone remember? Did Ulster not need him?

Boss left when Ulster signed Pienaar, didn't want to be a [distant] second choice.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

I suppose that's a familiarity thing, because as a Leinster fan, I wouldn't take Marmion or Cooney ahead of McGrath. I guess that's because I see him play more often, as you would with Connacht players.

Oh completely. Every fan is going to prefer their own player

I was worried that I was going to be buried for my comment initially. :cool:

errlloyd

awec wrote: »

Boss left when Ulster signed Pienaar, didn't want to be a [distant] second choice.

Boss also had a fairly tenuous but still damaging rape allegation hanging over his head in Belfast. He was never charged and investigation was dropped but I think it played into his decision to move.

McGrath is a terrific scrum half for Leinster. Not sure if he translates that to National form (albeit he did well against England at home in 2017).

He is a key player for us though, in the pre-season against Newcastle the game changed with his arrival and not just because he started making line breaks and dictating the pace of the game, but because the pack responded to what he was demanding of them. He's a leader.

I suspect Joe definitely prefers Marmion, Sexton plays with McGrath a good bit and would be constantly giving feedback to Joe so given Marmion has generally been preferred probably says a good bit.

But for Leinster I wouldn't want anyone else, I'd take Murray but that's it - no other 9 would start for Leinster ahead of him imo.

Jonnyfootball

[Deleted User] wrote: »

McGrath is a terrific scrum half for Leinster. Not sure if he translates that to National form (albeit he did well against England at home in 2017).

He is a key player for us though, in the pre-season against Newcastle the game changed with his arrival and not just because he started making line breaks and dictating the pace of the game, but because the pack responded to what he was demanding of them. He's a leader.

I suspect Joe definitely prefers Marmion, Sexton plays with McGrath a good bit and would be constantly giving feedback to Joe so given Marmion has generally been preferred probably says a good bit.

But for Leinster I wouldn't want anyone else, I'd take Murray but that's it - no other 9 would start for Leinster ahead of him imo.

Given how much damage McGrath does with his running game behind the Leinster pack I can’t help but think of how good marmion would be for leinster

Jonnyfootball

Jonnyfootball wrote: »

Given how much damage McGrath does with his running game behind the Leinster pack I can’t help but think of how good marmion would be for leinster

Quite possibly, but then he does it when it's the second and third string pack also.

Regardless, he brings a lot more to the team and I don't see any other player giving us that. Doesn't make him better, just makes him better for Leinster.

also he's better though