Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread X: [****]

irishbucsfan

troyzer wrote: »

People forget that many of the players have a private social media presence. It's not like soccer where they effectively don't exist. I follow Jack Dunne on Twitter for example, mostly because of the absolutely bizarre gifs and memes that he likes. It's easy to see how himself or close family members would see the abuse and lose their ****.

Well in many cases in a larger sport like soccer (which is where I have personal experience of this sort of stuff) once the player has a decent public following they'll have a second private account to do their private social media stuff that's only shared with close family and friends.

But the problem isn't really that its their private social media. Because people follow both the individual players and their teams or public accounts anyway. The problem is more that a surprisingly large proportion of people on social media are morons (and there's a particular concentration of them for sports accounts) and its easy to forget that when they're commenting about someone who is close to you.

Former Former

errlloyd wrote: »

I think JGP got it too but never quite as bad as Tomane.

What is Bents wife reacting to? I figured he was getting some **** on here, but is it on twitter and the likes too or are pundits giving out?

She was probably sitting in the stand on Friday night.

Do a search for Joe Tomane on Twitter.

She's dead right too.

Plenty of Leinster "fans" here on boards.ie have a case to answer too and I'm not talking about the obvious troll.

jacothelad

Clegg wrote: »

Who was the banned poster that always asked what school everyone went to?

Billy Bunter.....:D

stephen_n

Former Former wrote: »

She was probably sitting in the stand on Friday night.

Do a search for Joe Tomane on Twitter.

She's dead right too.

Plenty of Leinster "fans" here on boards.ie have a case to answer too and I'm not talking about the obvious troll.

I really shouldn’t have done that!

Cowboy848

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Speaking for myself, my opposition to certain signings comes from a desire to see Leinster back their own players who could be as good as some of these mooted signings if they were afforded the same gametime opportunities to develop. I think teams should develop their own players, whether that's players who've come through the system or underappreciated players brought in from outside and brought up to a new level - like the Scarlets with Tadhg Beirne, or Connacht with Tom Farrell.

There's nothing admirable about poaching the likes of Henshaw, Cronin and Lowe from teams without the financial clout to hold on to them. That's what Toulon do. All it shows is that you've got a bigger chequebook.

That's not to say that there isn't a place for quality signings. For years Leinster were crying out for a signing of Lowe's calibre. When Fitzgerald was going through his injury issues, there was a real lack of quality alternatives. I just fouind it strange tbhat they went out and bought someone just when O'Loughlin was showing a huge amount of promise on the left wing. I think before you sign someone you should try and fail to develop alternatives from within. O'Loughlin was denied the chance to kick on when all the evidence suggested he had the quality to be a real star in the first team going forward.

But that doesn’t compensate for the fact that some posters say Tomane is useless or shouldn’t have been signed. Why is preference given to players brought through in house over foreign players who haven’t played in the system? It’s not got anything to do with chequebook size it’s to do with the fact the player should be nurtered through the system because he’s home grown and therein lies the prejudice. Preference according to some fans should be shown because the player is from Ireland not because he is better. Why should we try to develop a player before signing another one? Is it because the role of a club is to develop players into superstars? No it’s not the role of the club is to win. I’m not saying I’m not for development because I am but there is a place for big money signings and when they don’t go right it’s not the place of the supporter to make that player feel unwelcome. The coaches have the role of getting the best out of players and it should be left to them. To say Tomane should be an instant success is unrealistic. He is a good international standard player coping with the new players and systems. To say an academy player should be ahead of a guy who has 40+ caps for Australia is madness. And it borders on racism because preference is being shown to the player who is home grown when it shouldn’t be

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

I think JGP got it too but never quite as bad as Tomane.

What is Bents wife reacting to? I figured he was getting some **** on here, but is it on twitter and the likes too or are pundits giving out?

It was on the official Leinster Facebook page, on the match day thread. Some of the comments were just downright thick, comments about how he can't defend for shít, is a disgrace, should be sent home and his contract cancelled etc.

awec

Buer wrote: »

I f*cking knew it was awec all along.

I am so confused reading this thread this morning.

Do I really come across as someone from Blackrock? Worrying.

The Lost Sheep

Cowboy848 wrote: »

I say it’s down to something which I call Rock boy racism. It starts in Rock when they favour junior school players who have played in their school and served for a longer time since junior school. It makes it more difficult for players who come into school after first year harder to make the team because they haven’t played from the age of 4 there. That’s all well and good when it’s kept in house but when the same thinking applies to foreigners and the incumbents are harping on about not being paid as much as the import it’s verged on racism.

The problem with bright sparks like Luke Fitzgerald and Awec who use this reasoning they don’t apply it consistently in their analysis. For example youths players like Sean O Brien and Tadgh Furlong could be viewed as blow ins also who haven’t been in the system and served as long as schools players. They certainly haven’t played to the high levels schools players do until their twenties. But they seem to go out of their way to push these players through the system and big them up. Do they consider them as blow ins also?

So when it comes to judging a foreign player they reason that that player should be at a disadvantage because it was never their dream growing up to become an Irish player or a Leinster player. But how do they know that this foreign player didn’t harbor feelings of wanting to play to a high level nonetheless? They don’t and therein lies the hypocrisy. It falls completely down to the fact that the player is foreign and most likely has different couloured skin to the rest of the “regulars”. It stinks to high heaven and it isn’t applied consistently across all classes of player. I just call them bigots and inbreeds with a chip on their shoulders.

This is hilarious.
And so ignorant of so many things.

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Speaking for myself, my opposition to certain signings comes from a desire to see Leinster back their own players who could be as good as some of these mooted signings if they were afforded the same gametime opportunities to develop. I think teams should develop their own players, whether that's players who've come through the system or underappreciated players brought in from outside and brought up to a new level - like the Scarlets with Tadhg Beirne, or Connacht with Tom Farrell.

There's nothing admirable about poaching the likes of Henshaw, Cronin and Lowe from teams without the financial clout to hold on to them. That's what Toulon do. All it shows is that you've got a bigger chequebook.

That's not to say that there isn't a place for quality signings. For years Leinster were crying out for a signing of Lowe's calibre. When Fitzgerald was going through his injury issues, there was a real lack of quality alternatives. I just fouind it strange tbhat they went out and bought someone just when O'Loughlin was showing a huge amount of promise on the left wing. I think before you sign someone you should try and fail to develop alternatives from within. O'Loughlin was denied the chance to kick on when all the evidence suggested he had the quality to be a real star in the first team going forward.

Thsts crazy. You cant simply just back your own even with a strong clubs/academy set up. Outsiders always needed for many reasons.

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

One of the main reasons they bring inplayers is to passion knowledge from overseas, teach the young players new thing, give them a different perspective

This was always part of the signing, strengthen the tream but also improve the team....look at Toner before and after the NZ came for 6 months

Would drive been as good without isa around?

Well, of course. That almost goes without saying. What I would say though is that there's not a whole heap of space for signings before the positive of a different way of looking at things gets outweighed by the negative of talented existing options not getting enough gametime.

The Tomane signing clearly goes the wrong side of the line, in my view. Leinster had Henshaw, O'Loughlin, Reid, Daly and O'Brien as options at 12 coming into this season. Signing someone, anyone, was always unnecessary, and incompatible with developing O'Brien. Where would O'Brien be now if Tomane hadn't got injured? Would he not have seen much gametime and be growing disillusioned and looking for an exit?

A bit of gametime is crucial for third year academy players. Even 40 minutes could count for a lot if you have single digits appearances for the senior team, and it could make the difference between being kept on or being shown the door for someone like Keenan or Mullin or JOB or Kelly. Kevin McLaughlin was getting cut by Cheika until he put in one or two big performances. Leinster already had a lot of 12s and wings theoretically around the same level as Tomane. Any remaining gametime after that was better spread around academy players.

Richie_Rich89

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Leinster don't have the luxury of failing to develop alternatives when they are trying to compete in Europe. Leinster do back their own players quite heavily. But you choose to ignore that to push your own agenda

ROLs development has not been stunted by any signing whatsoever. You can try and paint that picture all you like but that's complete and utter bullsh1t.

Tomane criticising is disgusting. When clowns like Luke Fitzgerald are allowed push this agenda on TV unchallenged it creates this idea that Tomane is crap and a terrible signing. He had a poor outing v Cardiff but had gradually shown signs of improvement.

If that was Henshaw last night every excuse possible would be made (long lay off, finding form, needs time etc). People actually stating Tomane can't tackle or was afraid to tackle when he made tackles than 24 other players who started the game and was left facing front rows with a 2nd row match on his line twice and it's all his fault.

What you're saying about ROL is objectively false. Tomane was selected as no. 23 ahead of him against Wasps, and started on the wing with ROL benching against Toulouse. Playing left wing brilliantly was a big part of ROL's breakout year. Lowe being brought in has effectively curtailed any further development in that position. His development has at best plateaued, and he might even have gone backwards. Let's not forget he picked up an Ireland cap in 2017 on the back of his excellent displays.

I find Henshaw a bit one-dimensional and lacking in imagination, but he has significant international pedigree as a 12, so it's not really an apt comparison. I would say Tomane's tackling in close to the breakdown near the tryline is a weakness. He's kind of too upright or something. I don't know if it's a rugby league thing. I seem to remember Conan barging through him easily to score a try in one of the games against Montpellier.

Edit: Conan try is at 1:02:45 in this video, with about 54 mins on match clock https://youtu.be/4_mmG8I1YoU

Dubinusa

I wonder how foreign players would be treated in super rugby?
Obviously the money is in Europe and no one from the Euro leagues move south.
But, if super rugby was a goldmine for rugby players and European lads went south for the money, what would the reaction be?
The pay is obviously a factor. Players leaving home to earn a living and set themselves up for retirement.
If the roles were reversed, I think we'd be howling mad about lads leaving!
It's the economics that lures lads away from home. Tomane is making a living, same as all the other foreign lads. I think fans have a right to voice displeasure, if these lads are not performing.
Irish lads have suffered grief too! Harassment and abuse is wrong! But, Tomane should be held to a higher standard. He makes more money than the homegrown players and he's very experienced. The fans expect performance and pay to see a performance. They are free to voice displeasure and are also free to support the player.
Just because a lad is from somewhere else, doesn't mean he's immune from criticism. He shouldn't be abused. Being a professional player, I think he's probably got a thick skin and would not be overly concerned. If he was performing like Fardy, it would not be an issue!

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

I wonder how foreign players would be treated in super rugby?
Obviously the money is in Europe and no one from the Euro leagues move south.
But, if super rugby was a goldmine for rugby players and European lads went south for the money, what would the reaction be?
The pay is obviously a factor. Players leaving home to earn a living and set themselves up for retirement.
If the roles were reversed, I think we'd be howling mad about lads leaving!
It's the economics that lures lads away from home. Tomane is making a living, same as all the other foreign lads. I think fans have a right to voice displeasure, if these lads are not performing.
Irish lads have suffered grief too! Harassment and abuse is wrong! But, Tomane should be held to a higher standard. He makes more money than the homegrown players and he's very experienced. The fans expect performance and pay to see a performance. They are free to voice displeasure and are also free to support the player.
Just because a lad is from somewhere else, doesn't mean he's immune from criticism. He shouldn't be abused. Being a professional player, I think he's probably got a thick skin and would not be overly concerned. If he was performing like Fardy, it would not be an issue!

It doesnt really happen but theyre accepted in super rugby..
You can voice displeasure but what exactly is this higher standard he should be held to?
Noboby has ever said a player like Tomane should be mmune from criticism. And its nonsense to say players arent overly concerned with stuff said online

Exclamation Marc

What's obvious from some quarters is:

Foreigner struggles to find his feet at Leinster, get him out, he's holding down the young Irish players who we've barely seen and he should have adapted by now. Let's criticise him above and beyond what we'd say about an Irish player or is reasonable for anyone starting out somewhere.

Irish young player struggles, give him time, it takes time and games to adapt. It's a process to adjust, let's encourage him. Sure he's Irish like.

The xenophobia is clear as day.

Former Former

He is being subjected to unfair criticism simply because he's not from here.

That's not acceptable.

I don't care how people want to dress it up or justify it to themselves but it's inherently wrong and you are no supporter of Leinster if that's how you think.

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

He makes more money than the homegrown players and he's very experienced. The fans expect performance and pay to see a performance. They are free to voice displeasure and are also free to support the player.
!

Does he? I would doubt he is anywhere close to the wages that Healy/Sexton/SOB etc are on.

armchaircoach

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Does he? I would doubt he is anywhere close to the wages that Healy/Sexton/SOB etc are on.

That's quite disingenuous, those three (at the time they signed their last contracts) we're nailed on Leinster European starting 15 players.

He is more directly in competition with ROL and Barry Daly, and I suspect earns quite a lot more than both.

Shefwedfan

armchaircoach wrote: »

That's quite disingenuous, those three (at the time they signed their last contracts) we're nailed on Leinster European starting 15 players.

He is more directly in competition with ROL and Barry Daly, and I suspect earns quite a lot more than both.

How is it disingenuous? Tomane is an international player with years of experience. He would have more caps for Australia only he is overseas.....he has experience of Top 14 and European rugby....

Barry Daly and ROL are hardly in competition with him now?

More McFadden/Lowe etc.....probably on similar wages as these

sydthebeat

Tomane started ahead of both in the first game against wasps in the 23 shirt. His versatility is what makes him valuable.

It just a pity his injury came during the months when world have been playing constantly.

Now he's playing in a team of mostly second string, with pro 14 qualification already secured against teams with lots to play for.

stephen_n

The only thing is that hopefully Tomane is seasoned enough not to take this onboard. Imagine we started treating academy players this way, we’d have written off half the squad by now.

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How is it disingenuous? Tomane is an international player with years of experience. He would have more caps for Australia only he is overseas.....he has experience of Top 14 and European rugby....

Barry Daly and ROL are hardly in competition with him now?

More McFadden/Lowe etc.....probably on similar wages as these

Are you basing your rankings on quality of display or number of international caps?

P.Walnuts

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Are you basing your rankings on quality of display or number of international caps?

Usually quality of display equates to international caps

Richie_Rich89

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Usually quality of display equates to international caps

Sure. It's just it seems he was suggesting that Tomane's international pedigree meant there was no way ROL could be on an equal footing to him - even though Tomane's been pretty poor at 12 and ROL has a MOTM award from a European Cup game against Bath.

Would he prefer to see McFadden (34 caps) selected over Lowe (0 caps) on the left wing, I wonder?

sydthebeat

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Are you basing your rankings on quality of display or number of international caps?

Is the quantity of display in such order as to be comparable??

Tomane 10 apps
ROL 58 apps
Daly 34 apps
FMF 176 apps
Lowe 25 apps

Richie_Rich89

sydthebeat wrote: »

Is the quantity of display in such order as to be comparable??

Tomane 10 apps
ROL 58 apps
Daly 34 apps
FMF 176 apps
Lowe 25 apps

Are you saying he hasn't played enough to settle in and for us to make a judgement?

ROL has only started twice at 12, and has had no problem showing his quality in the position.

sydthebeat

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Are you saying he hasn't played enough to settle in and for us to make a judgement?
.

yes 100% i am.

10 appearances for an average of 50 minute a game... with a 5 month lay off between the 9th and 10th cap. ... and fulfilling 4 different positions in those 10 apps... new systems, new coaches, new team mates..

100% its too early to judge him.

as an avid super rugby watcher i know exactly what he CAN do given time.. he averages a strike rate of 1 in 3 for every team hes played with.... and given a clear run of games on the wing ive no doubt he can do similar here.

and on the people who say hes on a huge salary as hes a NIQ, i wouldnt be too sure. Hes the one who fought to join Leinster. He still had a year left on his Monty contract so im sure that was used as a bargaining chip in the contract negotiations.

also, lets not forget the tough start nacewa had when he first came over. Schmidth as a coach got it too... and even Lowe was once described as poison on here for some of his early performances.

If the home grown irish guys are good enough, they will play... if theres a better player ahead of them, then as supporters we should be getting behind them.

to denigrate one player over another because they are not your own nationality is xenophobic at best, ignorant all the time, and racist at worst.

Interested Observer

Think we also need to keep in mind this is the forum that gave us James 'Below AIL Standard Poison' Lowe.

Dubinusa

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It doesnt really happen but theyre accepted in super rugby..
You can voice displeasure but what exactly is this higher standard he should be held to?
Noboby has ever said a player like Tomane should be mmune from criticism. And its nonsense to say players arent overly concerned with stuff said online

His salary, of course! He's being paid more than the homegrown lads. Therefore he should be performing at a higher level?
After all, he's internationally capped!
It's reasonable to expect a professional rugby player, who's internationally capped, with lots of experience to be better than academy players.
Again, if he was at Fardy's level, he wouldn't be getting the flack.
Critisism is part of being a rugby pro.
If he's not good enough, he shouldn't play.
It's fairly simple!

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes 100% i am.

10 appearances for an average of 50 minute a game... with a 5 month lay off between the 9th and 10th cap. ... and fulfilling 4 different positions in those 10 apps... new systems, new coaches, new team mates..

100% its too early to judge him.

as an avid super rugby watcher i know exactly what he CAN do given time.. he averages a strike rate of 1 in 3 for every team hes played with.... and given a clear run of games on the wing ive no doubt he can do similar here.

and on the people who say hes on a huge salary as hes a NIQ, i wouldnt be too sure. Hes the one who fought to join Leinster. He still had a year left on his Monty contract so im sure that was used as a bargaining chip in the contract negotiations.

also, lets not forget the tough start nacewa had when he first came over. Schmidth as a coach got it too... and even Lowe was once described as poison on here for some of his early performances.

If the home grown irish guys are good enough, they will play... if theres a better player ahead of them, then as supporters we should be getting behind them.

to denigrate one player over another because they are not your own nationality is xenophobic at best, ignorant all the time, and racist at worst.

What he said. Twice because it’s Sunday.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

His salary, of course! He's being paid more than the homegrown lads. Therefore he should be performing at a higher level?
After all, he's internationally capped!
It's reasonable to expect a professional rugby player, who's internationally capped, with lots of experience to be better than academy players.
Again, if he was at Fardy's level, he wouldn't be getting the flack.
Critisism is part of being a rugby pro.
If he's not good enough, he shouldn't play.
It's fairly simple!

You're assuming a lot on his salary. He's playing as he's good enough and the criticism he's getting in so places is completely unfair and certainly not based on his ability

Dubinusa

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Does he? I would doubt he is anywhere close to the wages that Healy/Sexton/SOB etc are on.

Why should he be? He's not integral to the Irish team!
He's never going to get that kind of salary in Ireland.
He makes more than the average Irish players.
He also left his homeland, because obviously the salaries are poor.